State of computer graphics when Amiga was born...

[Rotareneg]

The Mindset was an interesting but doomed computer from '84 that also had some much more advanced capabilities than most PCs at the time.

[Rotareneg]

Oh, and I had almost forgotten about this one: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atar...er_Workstation

[Vascillious]

Originally Posted by pandy71

Pointless discussion - Amiga provided bit blitting and line drawing as standard, supported by OS and reasonable price for mass market - workstations, particularly those graphical was never tailored for mass market. especially as personal computer (i.e. millions of users).

Multimedia capabilities provided by Amiga HW/SW as standard was unique for many years...
PC and Mac didn't provided anything similar for comparable price for many years...
And jpg decoding (800x600) on 386SX @16MHz took over 45 seconds, similarly for MP3 (for long time decoding speed was bellow real time i.e. need to be decoded to wav to be able played without hiccups).

Some things aren't really worthy of much more than a laugh react.

The launch Amiga's CPU was a 7Mhz 1979 68000. Not exactly a powerhouse. It had no FPU. Even at the Amigas launch date it was already a dated CPU .

What's multimedia about it?

It has a sprite engine the "blitter". It doesn't provide encoding or even decoding. What's "multimedia" about it? You can't make multimedia with a sprite engine with no processing power.

It had a sound chip which was basically 4x8it d/a converters. A circuit you can make with a pack of resistors and an hour of free time. It didn't provide encoding or decoding. What's "multimedia" about it? You can't make multimedia with a sound engine with no processing power.

When your CPU is a 68000, and it's all you have to work from, it isn't capable of satisfying any reasonable definition of "multimedia".

It's funny because people stick with this claim despite the fact that even now looking back 35 years, there are no examples of multimedia apps for the Amiga. Its one big moment was the Video toaster, and the first edition of that didn't even encode digital video. It was basically a GUI interface for setting in and out points, features you didn't even need if you already had a video deck, which you'd have to to make use of it at all.

Really, what was "multimedia" about an Amiga? It scarcely satisfies that definition any better than a Commodore 64. You could do sprites and sound and music, to some rudimentary degree, with a Commodore 64.

[ Show youtube player ]

The first ever digital video offline NLE was the 1989 PC-based EMC2.... for the PC.

[ Show youtube player ]

As ever, it came to the PC market Before any similar product for the Amiga. The Video Toaster arrived the following year, but yet in its first incarnation the fabled Video Toaster was not even able to encode or edit digital video. For that you'd have to wait until 1994 for the Video Toaster Flyer, which allowed basic A/B roll edits and scrubbing. It was so rare and so unpopular that most Amiga fans who boast of how great it was haven't even seen one. For a 1985 computer it was really impressive.... but for a 1994 computer it wasn't impressive at all.


The fact is this: To be truly multimedia, you have to be able to do credible on-screen A/V editing on digital video streams, and there were exactly ZERO good systems to do this on a desktop computer until the late 1990s, long after the Amiga's demise. The Amiga didn't play an interesting role in multimedia. The pretence that it did is an exercise in self deception.

Seriously, what's especially "multimedia" about an Amiga? Prove me wrong. I want to see examples not just hear more boring empty boasting and boring empty trash talk without substance.

[grond]

Obviously you've never heard about the Amiga CDTV.

[Weaselrama]

At the San Francisco Joint Fall Computer conference in 1968, Doug Engelbart presented the "Mother of all Demos" using microwave to patch Engelbart's Keyboard and mouse commands back to the midrange computers at Stanford which represented his NLS system.

This presentation is usually referred to as the first Multimedia presentation. It used closed-circuit TV to display Englebart and his Keyboard/Mouse/chordkey combination while he demonstrated an early hypertext system projected on one of the largest available TV screens provided by the Air Force.

The definition of Multimedia has changed a great deal since the late 60s. Now you want to limit the conversation to the Amiga 1000 using a modern definition of Multimedia. No Amiga fan would follow suit. We judge the Amiga for what all those models through 1992 could accomplish. We had the Video Toaster. Lights, camera, action. Music, photography, art design. By any definition of the term, the Amiga used to its full potential was an early multimedia machine. The PC would not become a multimedia machine of any merit until what, at least 1995? Ok, I'll even spot you a couple of years and say 1993 with the debut of Win 3.11. I used 3.11 in those early days. It wasn't much to talk about and neither was the MS-DOS 6.22 it ran on top of. Win 3.11 wasn't even an OS by strict definition, let alone a "multimedia" platform. What sound card were you using before 1992 that could do what Paula did?

You lost this argument a while back, I'm not sure why you feel you have to persist.

[Foebane]

Originally Posted by Vascillious

The fact is this: To be truly multimedia, you have to be able to do credible on-screen A/V editing on digital video streams, and there were exactly ZERO good systems to do this on a desktop computer until the late 1990s, long after the Amiga's demise. The Amiga didn't play an interesting role in multimedia. The pretence that it did is an exercise in self deception.

Why do you think multimedia requires any form of encoding and decoding? I always took multimedia to mean realistic-looking and sounding visuals and sounds, which the Amiga came closest to achieving back in 1985, and NewTek demonstrated the 1985 Amiga's abilities brilliantly with this:

[ Show youtube player ]

Fairly realistic digital graphics and sound for 1985? Check. And I would say it's multimedia as well.

As I recall, so-called "Multimedia PCs" of the mid-to-late 1990s were similar, except for the extra storage capacities of CD-ROM. I'm not sure if they ever had encoding and decoding. All that stuff came later with MP3s and MPEG videos, etc... which is maybe YOUR definition of multimedia.

[Vascillious]

Originally Posted by Foebane

Why do you think multimedia requires any form of encoding and decoding? I always took multimedia to mean realistic-looking and sounding visuals and sounds, which the Amiga came closest to achieving back in 1985, and NewTek demonstrated the 1985 Amiga's abilities brilliantly with this:

[ Show youtube player ]

Fairly realistic digital graphics and sound for 1985? Check. And I would say it's multimedia as well.

As I recall, so-called "Multimedia PCs" of the mid-to-late 1990s were similar, except for the extra storage capacities of CD-ROM. I'm not sure if they ever had encoding and decoding. All that stuff came later with MP3s and MPEG videos, etc... which is maybe YOUR definition of multimedia.

That isn't what I think of when I think of Multimedia. It's just a colour picture slideshow. What's the point?

[Vascillious]

Originally Posted by grond

Obviously you've never heard about the Amiga CDTV.

I said I wanted to see examples.

Sure, educate me. You mean that failed game system?

Show me some multimedia applications on it.

[Weaselrama]

I guess you're going to have to slap Wikipedia around regarding their definition of multimedia as well:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multim...0to%20flourish.

[Weaselrama]

Originally Posted by Vascillious

That isn't what I think of when I think of Multimedia. It's just a colour picture slideshow. What's the point?

No one cares what "your" definition of Multimedia is especially with the number of times you've moved the goalposts during this entire thread. The industry recognizes the Amiga as an early multimedia computer for the consumer electronics market.

Remember Encarta which was considered MS's first real foray into multimedia? We were there first with the Amiga CD32:

[ Show youtube player ]

[Vascillious]

Originally Posted by Foebane

Why do you think multimedia requires any form of encoding and decoding? I always took multimedia to mean realistic-looking and sounding visuals and sounds, which the Amiga came closest to achieving back in 1985, and NewTek demonstrated the 1985 Amiga's abilities brilliantly with this:

[ Show youtube player ]

Fairly realistic digital graphics and sound for 1985? Check. And I would say it's multimedia as well.

As I recall, so-called "Multimedia PCs" of the mid-to-late 1990s were similar, except for the extra storage capacities of CD-ROM. I'm not sure if they ever had encoding and decoding. All that stuff came later with MP3s and MPEG videos, etc... which is maybe YOUR definition of multimedia.

"MY" definition of multimedia Definitely implies digital a/v streams, at least.

All I'm learning here is Amiga fans believe their platform was the first multimedia computer by depending on an impoverished definition of what multimedia means, which doesn't stand when it hits the cold hard light of reality. You can get "fairly realistic" digital graphics from almost anything. Unlike my definition you have no specificity at all. "Fairly realistic" can mean anything you want it to mean.

Here's a PC fitted with the VGA-preceding Professional Graphics Controller from 1984, again, before the Amiga was released.

Skip to to 1:00 to see the final image.

Is that "Fairly realistic" enough?

You couldn't even buy an Amiga yet when PCs were doing this.

I'm still waiting for the sign Amiga graphics was an Advancement on this?

[ Show youtube player ]

[Weaselrama]

"Amiga Multimedia X 4" (1992):

[ Show youtube player ]

[Vascillious]

Originally Posted by Weaselrama

No one cares what "your" definition of Multimedia is especially with the number of times you've moved the goalposts during this entire thread. The industry recognizes the Amiga as an early multimedia computer for the consumer electronics market.

Remember Encarta which was considered MS's first real foray into multimedia? We were there first with the Amiga CD32:

[ Show youtube player ]

And I don't care what yours is.

You haven't presented any independent definition of Multimedia which makes the Amiga "the first multimedia" computer.

Why isn't the 64 or the Sinclair Spectrum the first?

You've been able to do sound and graphics on computers for years before the Amiga arrived.

You don't have a definition. I do. That's the difference.

All you're dong is totally arbitrarily declaring the Amiga the first multimedia computer with no meaningful definition for the word.

I have a meaningful definition: Moving synchronised digital sound and video, within a surrounding text and graphics environment on a shared screen. That's sets a meaningful, measurable stake in the ground.


What you mean is, you don't like my definition because it discounts the Amiga.

You prefer to have a far more impoverished and loose definition so it can mean what you want it to mean. Which, in your hands, is nothing.

[Weaselrama]

Originally Posted by Vascillious

"MY" definition of multimedia...

Again, you're moving the goalpost to a card the majority of PC users at home probably didn't know existed and was waaaaaay out of their price range.

"While never widespread in consumer-class personal computers, its US $4,290 list price compared favorably to US$50,000 dedicated CAD workstations of the time (even when the $4,995 price of a PC XT model 87[4]was included). It was discontinued in 1987 with the arrival of VGA and 8514."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Profes...ics_Controller

[Galahad/FLT]

Originally Posted by Vascillious

Some things aren't really worthy of much more than a laugh react.

The launch Amiga's CPU was a 7Mhz 1979 68000. Not exactly a powerhouse. It had no FPU. Even at the Amigas launch date it was already a dated CPU .

What's multimedia about it?

It has a sprite engine the "blitter". It doesn't provide encoding or even decoding. What's "multimedia" about it? You can't make multimedia with a sprite engine with no processing power.

It had a sound chip which was basically 4x8it d/a converters. A circuit you can make with a pack of resistors and an hour of free time. It didn't provide encoding or decoding. What's "multimedia" about it? You can't make multimedia with a sound engine with no processing power.

When your CPU is a 68000, and it's all you have to work from, it isn't capable of satisfying any reasonable definition of "multimedia".

It's funny because people stick with this claim despite the fact that even now looking back 35 years, there are no examples of multimedia apps for the Amiga. Its one big moment was the Video toaster, and the first edition of that didn't even encode digital video. It was basically a GUI interface for setting in and out points, features you didn't even need if you already had a video deck, which you'd have to to make use of it at all.

Really, what was "multimedia" about an Amiga? It scarcely satisfies that definition any better than a Commodore 64. You could do sprites and sound and music, to some rudimentary degree, with a Commodore 64.

[ Show youtube player ]

The first ever digital video offline NLE was the 1989 PC-based EMC2.... for the PC.

[ Show youtube player ]

As ever, it came to the PC market Before any similar product for the Amiga. The Video Toaster arrived the following year, but yet in its first incarnation the fabled Video Toaster was not even able to encode or edit digital video. For that you'd have to wait until 1994 for the Video Toaster Flyer, which allowed basic A/B roll edits and scrubbing. It was so rare and so unpopular that most Amiga fans who boast of how great it was haven't even seen one. For a 1985 computer it was really impressive.... but for a 1994 computer it wasn't impressive at all.


The fact is this: To be truly multimedia, you have to be able to do credible on-screen A/V editing on digital video streams, and there were exactly ZERO good systems to do this on a desktop computer until the late 1990s, long after the Amiga's demise. The Amiga didn't play an interesting role in multimedia. The pretence that it did is an exercise in self deception.

Seriously, what's especially "multimedia" about an Amiga? Prove me wrong. I want to see examples not just hear more boring empty boasting and boring empty trash talk without substance.

You've got plenty of other questions to answer before you start worrying about whether or not the Amiga was multimedia or not.

So how about you go back, have a read, and answer those questions, because this diversion in multimedia is just that, a diversion.

[Weaselrama]

I repeat, Industry and historically recognized at the first multimedia computer for consumers. There's nothing you can say here that changes that. Go argue ad nauseam with the independent computer enthusiasts and engineers who awarded it that appelation through the years. You're kicking a dead horse now.

[Weaselrama]

Originally Posted by Vascillious

What you mean is, you don't like my definition because it discounts the Amiga.

You're going to discount the Amiga regardless of any facts we've presented. You're trolling on an Amiga Forum. Brilliant. Enjoying yourself? You have a fan club of 1. We can just as easily discount the PC has it existed in the hands of consumers in the 1980s.

The Video Toaster was a known quantity among all Amiga users and it was affordable. You had nothing practical on the PC side for consumers that was comparable until the mid-90s. That's been established.

[Galahad/FLT]

Originally Posted by Weaselrama

You're going to discount the Amiga regardless of any facts we've presented. You're trolling on an Amiga Forum. Brilliant. Enjoying yourself? You have a fan club of 1. We can just as easily discount the PC has it existed in the hands of consumers in the 1980s.

The Video Toaster was a known quantity among all Amiga users and it was affordable. You had nothing practical on the PC side for consumers that was comparable until the mid-90s. That's been established.

Never mind the fact that Scala started life on the Amiga specifically to write...... multimedia software for it!

But then this is the guy that says with a straight face that Spectrum and C64 could be considered multimedia, because of course their graphic and sound capabilities are right up there with an Amiga lol

[Vascillious]

Originally Posted by Weaselrama

Again, you're moving the goalpost to a card the majority of PC users at home probably didn't know existed and was waaaaaay out of their price range.

"While never widespread in consumer-class personal computers, its US $4,290 list price compared favorably to US$50,000 dedicated CAD workstations of the time (even when the $4,995 price of a PC XT model 87[4]was included). It was discontinued in 1987 with the arrival of VGA and 8514."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Profes...ics_Controller

So what? Who's moving goalposts? I don't care what "the average PC user" could afford. It's yet another totally arbitrary and fictional standard.

It's the same boring price-objection I predicted in my first post.

"I can't afford it" is NOT a technical specification.

I don't care if you can afford it. It's irrelevant information.

[Galahad/FLT]

Originally Posted by Vascillious

So what? Who's moving goalposts? I don't care what "the average PC user" could afford. It's yet another totally arbitrary and fictional standard.

It's the same boring price-objection I predicted in my first post.

"I can't afford it" is NOT a technical specification.

I don't care if you can afford it. It's irrelevant information.

Hey Vascillious, can I call you Martin instead?

Asking for a friend.