Update for X-Surf networking card

[Kin Hell]

Originally Posted by Schoenfeld

There is no DMA on my cards, and neither is there any DMA in the usual way on *any* PCI implementation of the Amiga. What they do is a DMA into PCI gfx card memory (which works great), and then polled-IO to transfer the data from GFX mem into Amiga memory. In essence, the DMA part on the PCI boards is a detour, because most PCI chipsets don't allow direct PIO.

X-Surf (both the 10MBit and 100MBit versions) are pure PIO designs, so in comparison to PCI cards, you skip one step in data transfer, which makes things faster. Remember the prime directive of optimization: The fastest operation is one that you don't execute. Network data doesn't belong in GFX memory.

There is only very few real DMA cards for the Amiga: GVP SCSI controllers, Fastlane (=4091) and Deneb.

I'm aiming at the "Subway" ballpark with the USB module price. You get two High-speed USB ports and a Poseidon license.

Jens

WOW! I wasn't aware there were so few DMA compliant cards for the Amiga & yes, Elbox PCI solutions do work quite well despite their DMA fudge/patch, which is where I kinda was with thinking most ZORRO cards were DMA compliant. Digressing, I guess the DMA compliant G-REX4000 ZORRO board blows the Elbox solution because of it's 64Bit memory addressing straight onto the CPU card rather than through the ZORRO III mobo wait-states.
However, with your pricing for the USB module, the Subway gives you 4 ports & an included Poseidon License so shouldn't your price reflect this having only 2 ports & Poseidon now being free? <--- Maybe I read wrong about Poseidon now being free.

Originally Posted by fitzsteve

@Jens, internal USB header would be great if possible on the UBS card for using internal Disk readers, etc

Again Jens, fitz does have a valid point here, especially based on your 2 port only pricing suggestion. - An internal one would offer a far better solution to house some USB device or other within the Amiga case & across many several Big Box Amiga's

Originally Posted by hooverphonique

so this polled-IO is some form of short DMA transfer (64bits?) of data from gfx memory to the pci busboard and then to the cpu via the zorro bus?

ZORRO III is only 32Bit, an upgrade from ZORROII which was 16Bit. Afaik, the only 64Bit operations in an Amiga is via either the CSMKIII or the CSPPC card, where the memory is in essence addressed via two 32Bit channels @ the same time, much like Dual Channel ram is in modern day PeeCees.
Some Graphics cards may also have 64Bit addressing via their RAM but please, please don't shoot me down on this. I am merely thinking this way with the way VRAM works & that is a can of worms I don't even want to try & understand. VRAM blows SDRAM....

[hooverphonique]

Originally Posted by Kin Hell

ZORRO III is only 32Bit, an upgrade from ZORROII which was 16Bit.

I know.. still, dma bursts wider than 32 bits would be possible from a pci card to the zorro-pci bridge on the busboard, which is what I was referring to

[Schoenfeld]

Originally Posted by hooverphonique

I know.. still, dma bursts wider than 32 bits would be possible from a pci card to the zorro-pci bridge on the busboard, which is what I was referring to

Not correct. A burst can only be as wide as the bus (32 bits), and as deep as the cache line (note that Motorola CPUs can only burst into/out of cache). Since networking is an IO thing that MUST NOT be cached, there are no bursts either.

That brings you back to square one: Pedal to the metal on PIO, otherwise you lose time. That's what the X-Surf-100 is doing.

Jens

[DrBong]

Originally Posted by amigakit.com

Thanks everyone!

We are working through the details for this new product- please watch this space.

Originally Posted by lost_loven

Just ordered from Amigakit!!!! WOOT! thx!

Same here. Thanks for the quick response to requests to stock the new X-Surf! Just need to figure out now what other items I need to add to my order......decisions, decisions!

Thanks also to you Jens for plugging a gaping hole in the Amiga enthusiast market yet again!!

[hooverphonique]

Originally Posted by Schoenfeld

Not correct. A burst can only be as wide as the bus (32 bits), and as deep as the cache line (note that Motorola CPUs can only burst into/out of cache). Since networking is an IO thing that MUST NOT be cached, there are no bursts either.

people are obviously not getting what I'm talking about

It's not about motorola caches or motorola cpu bursts.. If the pci chipset only supports dma, the only way to get data out of the ram of a pci gfxcard is to dma it into some local storage/register on the busboard from where the amiga can access it - these dma transfers may be of any size the manufacturer of the busboard decides, and has nothing to do with zorro bus width or anything else amiga-related..

[Schoenfeld]

Originally Posted by hooverphonique

these dma transfers may be of any size the manufacturer of the busboard decides, and has nothing to do with zorro bus width or anything else amiga-related..

True. However, no bus board has any memory, which is why the GFX card's memory serves as a temporary buffer for the networking card. The CPU then needs to poll the data from that memory (or vice versa; CPU places data into GFX memory and tells NIC to DMA things from that mem). That's the detour I wrote about earlier.

That polling may be as fast as the PIO transfer from/to the X-Surf-100, but since you have to wait for the DMA to be completed, you always have some additional time to wait. As a result, I am claiming to have built the fastest networking solution for the Amiga that has ever been made.

Jens

[Kin Hell]

Originally Posted by Schoenfeld

....<snip>...

That polling may be as fast as the PIO transfer from/to the X-Surf-100, but since you have to wait for the DMA to be completed, you always have some additional time to wait. As a result, I am claiming to have built the fastest networking solution for the Amiga that has ever been made.

Jens

With the wait-states you refer to here, this would be why the G-Rex4000 would DMA into the Ram of the CSPPC or CSMKIII on it's backplane to CPU card connector & of course, give it a serious blistering speed.
From this & your explanation of the PIO transfer through the X-Surf100, how does it compare for speed/throughput with a G-Rex4000 setup using a Realtek based PCI NIC?

[hooverphonique]

Originally Posted by Schoenfeld

True. However, no bus board has any memory, which is why the GFX card's memory serves as a temporary buffer for the networking card. The CPU then needs to poll the data from that memory (or vice versa; CPU places data into GFX memory and tells NIC to DMA things from that mem). That's the detour I wrote about earlier.

Ahh.. ok.. well, obviously the gfxram is accessible through PIO then, and is an exception to the rule you stated that generally, pci chipsets only support dma.. all settled then and I shall stop polluting this thread any further with my technical ranting ;-)

thanks for clearing that..

[lost_loven]

@Amigakit : is the pre ordering quota up? Just wondering how many were available for sale?
Just noticed on your web site just has stock expected date and no pre-order clicky button

lost

[amigakit.com]

Still can be preordered from us with a free EasyNet here:

http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/...oducts_id=1156

Thank you

[lost_loven]

awh. it changed again. Kool. For a second i thought wow that went fast

lost

[wmsteele]

Just placed a perorder, noticed you've now got a picture of the card.

[wmsteele]

Looks like the perorder quota is up again, the prorder button has gone, just got my order in time then

[Kin Hell]

Originally Posted by Schoenfeld

....<snip>...

That polling may be as fast as the PIO transfer from/to the X-Surf-100, but since you have to wait for the DMA to be completed, you always have some additional time to wait. As a result, I am claiming to have built the fastest networking solution for the Amiga that has ever been made.

Jens

Originally Posted by Kin Hell

With the wait-states you refer to here, this would be why the G-Rex4000 would DMA into the Ram of the CSPPC or CSMKIII on it's backplane to CPU card connector & of course, give it a serious blistering speed.
From this & your explanation of the PIO transfer through the X-Surf100, how does it compare for speed/throughput with a G-Rex4000 setup using a Realtek based PCI NIC?

....cough....

Er, not really wanting to quote myself, but....?

And also, what of the internal USB facility considering Internal functionality as valued by fitzsteve & myself (possibly others), with the the value (bang per buck) & Poseidon now being free?

[amigakit.com]

@wmsteele @lost_loven @DrBong

Thanks for the orders!

Still can be preordered from us with a free EasyNet here:

http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/...oducts_id=1156

Thank you

[lost_loven]

Looked at subway and 133 cdn gets you integrated 4x port hub ,highspeed clockport for fast data transfers, 2 x holding plates with two USB connectors each and disk with drivers on it for keyboards mouse and what ever else.. I would hope if the module for the x-surf 100 is just to enable the back ports and comes with Poseidon/drivers then it should be half the price one would hope. Either which way one would still have to get it for enabling the usb and thats what one has to do.

a look at subway : http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/...roducts_id=137

When this is all said and done my wife is gonna kill me for the money i am spending lol
oh and Amigakit you are welcome.. I will toss some more money your way soon!!!!!

lost

[Schoenfeld]

Originally Posted by lost_loven

Looked at subway and 133 cdn gets you integrated 4x port hub ,highspeed clockport for fast data transfers, 2 x holding plates with two USB connectors each and disk with drivers on it for keyboards mouse and what ever else..

On Subway, literally nothing is high-speed. The clockport is the slowest port that has ever existed for the Amiga (about the speed of the C64 bus), and the USB ports are full-speed, meaning 12MBit.

The USB module I'm working on is a high-speed USB module, meaning 480MBit per port, which you won't be able to saturate even with the highest-speed CPU accelerators. If you care about the number of USB ports, get a 10-dollar-USB hub from the PC store round the corner.

Also, Poseidon isn't exactly free. Commercial products require a license, and I have purchased that. In turn, it must be paid with the commercial product that is Poseidon-powered.

Originally Posted by lost_loven

I would hope if the module for the x-surf 100 is just to enable the back ports and comes with Poseidon/drivers then it should be half the price one would hope.

If your hopes had a foundation, I'd buy a couple of hundred units and shelve my developoment.

Jens

[Retrofan]

Sorry but I've got an offtopic simple question, and I don't know where to post it:

Can be improved the internet speed rate on a desktop A1200 making some new hardware?

[NovaCoder]

Originally Posted by Retrofan

Sorry but I've got an offtopic simple question, and I don't know where to post it:

Can be improved the internet speed rate on a desktop A1200 making some new hardware?

I think the best you could hope for is some kind of enhanced clock-port added to a new processor board.

[Schoenfeld]

All X-Surf-100 pre-orders have been shipped to resellers today. I will add the list of resellers to the Wiki article sometime during the weekend. Note that some resellers did not take part in financing the X-Surf-100 production, so not all resellers will carry this card.

Jens