KryoFlux Public Beta 1.0 - AVAILABLE NOW! - Page 3

papa_november · 19 February 2010, 09:27

Question: Can you run two drives off of a single KryoFlux board?

stainy · 19 February 2010, 10:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by IFW

It images everything... but obviously sector dumps can only hold non-protected data, you have to use stream files or draft (once added) for protected disks.

Could I use stream files now ? or is that to be added ?

So should I go ahead and buy a dev board or wait ? and if I wait... how long are we talking ???

IFW · 19 February 2010, 10:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by billy

Kudos on the release of Beta 2!

Sounds like I'll be interested in Beta 3 and the flippy disk mode as well.
I've been meaning to modify a drive around here for some time to read my C-NET DS-2 media!

+1 to a modified Ukrainian board, the PNP modification worked a treat.

Enjoy

IFW · 19 February 2010, 11:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loedown

From owning a Catweasel, it says in the documentation that you need to modify the 5.25" drive for being able to read 'flippy disks' as you call them, as the heads are staggered by 4 tracks. Jens has a modification for such a thing, what are you guys going to do?

That's actually not entirely correct.
The difference is 4 tracks for a drive that is 40 tracks, but 8 tracks for a 80 track drive.

The disks were duplicated originally in two different ways:
1, Flipping the disk over - just like how home users would. You'd see two index holes on those disks.
That was obviously too expensive in the long run.
2, Introducing single pass flippy mode to duplication.
The drives being used were modified to disable the track0 sensor and allow stepping below track0.

I'd add another option: aligning the upper and lower head so they read exactly the same track on different sides. Drives modified that way wouldn't be able to read disks from non-flippy systems anymore, but it's well worth it if you want to preserve loads of disks.

The problem with (2) is that in order to make more compact drives the drive mechanics have been shrinked to the point that the rail used to move the head no longer has enough room to actually move below track 0... by 8 tracks.

But older models can still have longer rails.

Adding another index sensor etc (like how others solved the problem) just gets around the problem of modern drives not enabling the read line without sensing a few revolutions and being up to speed - using the index hole signal.
The index position after such modification is totally incorrect and random - not acceptable for preservation as knowing the correct index position helps with properly aligning data as well as serves as one point of verification that the disk was actually duplicated, not home written.

IFW · 19 February 2010, 11:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by stainy

Could I use stream files now ? or is that to be added ?

So should I go ahead and buy a dev board or wait ? and if I wait... how long are we talking ???

Yes, you can.
Stream files are image type 0.
They store the track data as communicated by the KryoFlux board.
You have the option to create stream files during dumping if you want to.

Since they store what KryoFlux streamed as track data (plus contain statistics, integrity checks, status information etc, see our WIPs about out of band data) you can actually use them to replicate the exact dumping process - like if you were re-reading the disk.

There are two differences:

1, if you controlled the dumping process with selecting one or more formats to verify the tracks against, it is possible that the track was redumped automatically.
The stream file would only have the good read in this case - which is by design, there is no reason to keep bad reads around.

2, Stream files no longer reflect the physical track 0 offset (ie single pass flippy will have track -8 (!) dumped as track 0 for side 1), as how that was achieved is irrelevant from the point you have the data.

As for wait or DIY: it depends on what you want to achieve really

IFW · 19 February 2010, 11:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by papa_november

Question: Can you run two drives off of a single KryoFlux board?

Theoretically speaking yes and a line is present to control that, but neither the host software nor the firmware supports it at the moment.
It was a very low priority issue.

TBH we haven't found any time to actually test it in practice, and still are quite busy.

I'd rather not promise without testing that it works, but it is a possibility that it does

Loedown · 19 February 2010, 13:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by papa_november

Flippy disks are easy to dump/write with the Catewasel- you just have to punch another set of holes in the jacket so the drive can still see the timing hole.

It's a pain in the ass to do it for every disk, but it's pretty much foolproof. The Catweasel people never implemented reading/writing to the second side of a non-hole-punched flippy disk because of timing issues. I'm guessing that the KryoFlux doesn't have such problems.

Also, count me in for a board the very second write support is added.

I am thinking of the old C64 disks, many were notched a second time to allow writing when the disk was flipped over, not flippy disks sorry. My mistake for confusing the issue.

@IFW, wouldn't you have to do the old 'cat's eye' testing for head alignment, or isn't so critical in 5.25" drives?

IFW · 19 February 2010, 13:31

Actually it does not really matter whether we talk about the process of dumping a single pass flippy disk or a user flipping the disk over - the net result is always the same: a disk written on both sides, but for a drive type that could only access one side.

If the data is gathered from such a disk over using a second head - thus not flipping the disk how it was intended - the disk rotates in the wrong direction from the perspective of the head, and thus what is being read or written must be reversed.

In fact this is exactly what happened during duplication and what KryoFlux does as well in flippy mode.

If you go for head re-alignment then it's indeed a good idea to calibrate the drive afterwards.

KryoFlux supports two kind of calibrations at the moment:
1, Continuosly reading a selected track.
If you just use an image type selected to verify a known good disk you can watch the format output to see how good the reads are.
If you enable the cell level output, you can actually watch the cell sizes reported and their deviation from normal values.
Of course it helps if you know what the expected values are (it depends really on the encoding method used, ie FM, MFM and GCR would produce different cell bands); you can ask here or simply check what should you see with another drive

A more visual way of this (although matching cell sizes is trivial enough) could be added to the GUI version.

Of course if you have proper alignment disks those can be very helpful too.

IFW · 19 February 2010, 13:32

Naturally, drives that can seek below track 0 do not need re-alignment - as the heads don't get repositioned.

IFW · 19 February 2010, 13:38

...and the second calibration mode was missing:
2, The tool can tell exactly how far the head really moves in the drive reliably.
Ie, whether your drive supports say using 84 tracks or not.

You should go for drives that support 84 tracks for preservation so all tracks are guaranteed to be readable - but it does not matter much for user written disks (normally).

mr.vince · 19 February 2010, 15:10

====== KryoFlux Beta 3 Released - Reversing Bit-Stream for Flippy Disks ======

//2010-02-19//

We are pleased to announce that KryoFlux Beta 3 has now been released.

In beta 3, we have added a new option in our support for flippy disks, where you can reverse the bit stream on the flip-side. Note that the position of the index in the bit stream will be correct only for disks duplicated as a "single pass flippy" since those disks used the same index hole for both sides, using modified drives. Disks that were duplicated with earlier drives were actually flipped over, and hence the index is likely to be at a different position.

Due to this work, we can finally conclude once and for all that the head offset of the flip side is -8 tracks on a normal 80-track drive.

You can get the complete package here, or if you already have beta 1 or beta 2 installed, you can simply get the updated host software here.

IFW · 20 February 2010, 01:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by billy

Kudos on the release of Beta 2!

Sounds like I'll be interested in Beta 3 and the flippy disk mode as well.
I've been meaning to modify a drive around here for some time to read my C-NET DS-2 media!

+1 to a modified Ukrainian board, the PNP modification worked a treat.

Just one thing: you could restrict the output to say the format analyser output only using -l8; makes the output more human readable if you are looking for errors.

andreas · 20 February 2010, 02:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by stainy

I`ve been looking at board prices alone 55 Euro! not that bad... I can solder etc...

Me too (except for multi-layer boards); but yet I am NOT going to solder this myself. Nothing to do with laziness or something, but rather not wanting to ruin it all by one mistake with this microtechnological cruft.
Nor am I sure whether I have a soldering tip in my box thin enough to safely solder this stuff.
Don't these happen to be multi-layer circuit boards?

Well, this will also be a no-no for me - they're much too sensitive.

Let's cut it short: I'm going to wait for the ready-made thing to buy.
Pleae keep me/us posted once it's available for purchase.

20 February 2010, 06:41

Hi folks,

First time poster here. Fiath mentioned I should post here to ask the tech experts on KryoFlux, as he mentioned in this thread:

http://www.digitpress.com/forum/show...98#post1686098

I asked him if support could be added for Famicom disk system disks and should have also specified Quickdisks (QD) for other systems too, since FDS disks are really just QDs in a funny case. There were plenty of systems that used QDs, and I am not aware of any good way to dump them with modern methods. There is a program for DOS and modified parallel cables you can build called FDSLoader, but it is quite limited in what it can do, difficult to use, and does not read the same every time. It's not very versatile and I don't believe it can do raw reads so much as reads for FDS "files," for lack of a better word. It would be good to see a similar USB interface made for QD systems. The FDS does have some crude copy protection that must be defeated in order to write disks, but I reading them shouldn't be an issue. I could give anyone here a Japanese document I translated on defeating the FDS copy protection if anyone is interested.

I have a ton of QD disks that were used in 80s synthesizer keyboards and I'm dying to see if I can extract the samples on them before I recycle them for other uses. I also have QD disks for the MSX, and the Sharp MZ-1500. I think various word processors and some Amstrad computers used them too.

Can't wait to hear back folks, and I'll contribute any knowledge on the FDS I can. There are some other FDS experts out there I know who would likely contribute their knowledge too if I asked them.

Looking forward to this product!

-Rob

Loedown · 20 February 2010, 12:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by andreas

Me too (except for multi-layer boards); but yet I am NOT going to solder this myself. Nothing to do with laziness or something, but rather not wanting to ruin it all by one mistake with this microtechnological cruft.
Nor am I sure whether I have a soldering tip in my box thin enough to safely solder this stuff.
Don't these happen to be multi-layer circuit boards?

Well, this will also be a no-no for me - they're much too sensitive.

Let's cut it short: I'm going to wait for the ready-made thing to buy.
Pleae keep me/us posted once it's available for purchase.

Double sided board, not multi layer.

IFW · 20 February 2010, 14:11

Hi Rob,

As long as you or someone else can provide the technical details needed there is no reason not to read/preserve those disks.

Is it the same disk type that was being used for Spectrum+3 and Amstrad CPC?
If yes, we created an interface in the past for the previous dumping solution we used:
http://www.softpres.org/article:hard...drive_to_amiga

I've asked the guys who made that interface to comment on this, but I believe interfacing the drive to a KryoFlux board should be actually much easier as it does not require the drive id implemented.

If it is the same disk type, and uses the same or similar generic controller types that were being used for Amstrad CPC or Spectrum+3 then chances are KryoFlux can already create perfect sector dumps for you.

If we go one step further our analyser can tell if the disk have actually been modified since mastering - as long as it was professionally duplicated. This is especially important for what we do originally, namely preserving games in their unaltered state.
For that to work we'll need the stream files produced from the disks.

If for any reason either the drive type is not the same, or uses a different encoding I am positive we can add support anyway, will just take longer as it would be new development.

Feel free to contact me directly - I've sent you my email address as a Private Message.

Cheers,
IFW

IFW · 20 February 2010, 14:21

Ok, I got a reply already; if it's indeed the same 3'' drive type a cable connecting the right pins is all that is needed.

Interceptor · 20 February 2010, 14:26

you should be able to connect it using the same method the SDP guys use to read the disks on a pc.

http://newton.sunderland.ac.uk/~specfreak/FD1/

but i do not know anything about the 2.8" disks and whether or not they are readable in 3" drives.

IMPORTANT NOTE: the 4 pin power connector is back to front on the 3" drives! 12v and 5v are swapped, easy way is to force the connector on backwards, doing this wrong will kill the drive.

IFW · 20 February 2010, 15:54

I've seen a few requests about directly creating sector dumps from DiskSpare disks.
In order to make that happen I'd need stream dumps created with KryoFlux from one or two AUI disks.
Let me know if you have a working board and can provide the required stream files; in that case I am sure it would make it into beta 5

Chain · 20 February 2010, 16:24

man, we really need a small batch of bare boards at least. How about contacting Nusim Ltd.?

19 February 2010, 13:31	#48
IFW Moderator Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: ... Age: 52 Posts: 1,838	Actually it does not really matter whether we talk about the process of dumping a single pass flippy disk or a user flipping the disk over - the net result is always the same: a disk written on both sides, but for a drive type that could only access one side. If the data is gathered from such a disk over using a second head - thus not flipping the disk how it was intended - the disk rotates in the wrong direction from the perspective of the head, and thus what is being read or written must be reversed. In fact this is exactly what happened during duplication and what KryoFlux does as well in flippy mode. If you go for head re-alignment then it's indeed a good idea to calibrate the drive afterwards. KryoFlux supports two kind of calibrations at the moment: 1, Continuosly reading a selected track. If you just use an image type selected to verify a known good disk you can watch the format output to see how good the reads are. If you enable the cell level output, you can actually watch the cell sizes reported and their deviation from normal values. Of course it helps if you know what the expected values are (it depends really on the encoding method used, ie FM, MFM and GCR would produce different cell bands); you can ask here or simply check what should you see with another drive A more visual way of this (although matching cell sizes is trivial enough) could be added to the GUI version. Of course if you have proper alignment disks those can be very helpful too. Last edited by IFW; 19 February 2010 at 13:47.

20 February 2010, 06:41	#54
rbudrick Posts: n/a	Hi folks, First time poster here. Fiath mentioned I should post here to ask the tech experts on KryoFlux, as he mentioned in this thread: http://www.digitpress.com/forum/show...98#post1686098 I asked him if support could be added for Famicom disk system disks and should have also specified Quickdisks (QD) for other systems too, since FDS disks are really just QDs in a funny case. There were plenty of systems that used QDs, and I am not aware of any good way to dump them with modern methods. There is a program for DOS and modified parallel cables you can build called FDSLoader, but it is quite limited in what it can do, difficult to use, and does not read the same every time. It's not very versatile and I don't believe it can do raw reads so much as reads for FDS "files," for lack of a better word. It would be good to see a similar USB interface made for QD systems. The FDS does have some crude copy protection that must be defeated in order to write disks, but I reading them shouldn't be an issue. I could give anyone here a Japanese document I translated on defeating the FDS copy protection if anyone is interested. I have a ton of QD disks that were used in 80s synthesizer keyboards and I'm dying to see if I can extract the samples on them before I recycle them for other uses. I also have QD disks for the MSX, and the Sharp MZ-1500. I think various word processors and some Amstrad computers used them too. Can't wait to hear back folks, and I'll contribute any knowledge on the FDS I can. There are some other FDS experts out there I know who would likely contribute their knowledge too if I asked them. Looking forward to this product! -Rob Last edited by rbudrick; 20 February 2010 at 07:00.

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19 February 2010, 09:27	#41
papa_november Registered User Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: California Posts: 184	Question: Can you run two drives off of a single KryoFlux board?

19 February 2010, 13:32	#49
IFW Moderator Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: ... Age: 52 Posts: 1,838	Naturally, drives that can seek below track 0 do not need re-alignment - as the heads don't get repositioned.

19 February 2010, 13:38	#50
IFW Moderator Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: ... Age: 52 Posts: 1,838	...and the second calibration mode was missing: 2, The tool can tell exactly how far the head really moves in the drive reliably. Ie, whether your drive supports say using 84 tracks or not. You should go for drives that support 84 tracks for preservation so all tracks are guaranteed to be readable - but it does not matter much for user written disks (normally).

19 February 2010, 15:10	#51
mr.vince Cheesy crust Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Hawk's Creek Age: 48 Posts: 1,383	====== KryoFlux Beta 3 Released - Reversing Bit-Stream for Flippy Disks ====== //2010-02-19// We are pleased to announce that KryoFlux Beta 3 has now been released. In beta 3, we have added a new option in our support for flippy disks, where you can reverse the bit stream on the flip-side. Note that the position of the index in the bit stream will be correct only for disks duplicated as a "single pass flippy" since those disks used the same index hole for both sides, using modified drives. Disks that were duplicated with earlier drives were actually flipped over, and hence the index is likely to be at a different position. Due to this work, we can finally conclude once and for all that the head offset of the flip side is -8 tracks on a normal 80-track drive. You can get the complete package here, or if you already have beta 1 or beta 2 installed, you can simply get the updated host software here.

20 February 2010, 14:11	#56
IFW Moderator Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: ... Age: 52 Posts: 1,838	Hi Rob, As long as you or someone else can provide the technical details needed there is no reason not to read/preserve those disks. Is it the same disk type that was being used for Spectrum+3 and Amstrad CPC? If yes, we created an interface in the past for the previous dumping solution we used: http://www.softpres.org/article:hard...drive_to_amiga I've asked the guys who made that interface to comment on this, but I believe interfacing the drive to a KryoFlux board should be actually much easier as it does not require the drive id implemented. If it is the same disk type, and uses the same or similar generic controller types that were being used for Amstrad CPC or Spectrum+3 then chances are KryoFlux can already create perfect sector dumps for you. If we go one step further our analyser can tell if the disk have actually been modified since mastering - as long as it was professionally duplicated. This is especially important for what we do originally, namely preserving games in their unaltered state. For that to work we'll need the stream files produced from the disks. If for any reason either the drive type is not the same, or uses a different encoding I am positive we can add support anyway, will just take longer as it would be new development. Feel free to contact me directly - I've sent you my email address as a Private Message. Cheers, IFW

20 February 2010, 14:21	#57
IFW Moderator Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: ... Age: 52 Posts: 1,838	Ok, I got a reply already; if it's indeed the same 3'' drive type a cable connecting the right pins is all that is needed.

20 February 2010, 14:26	#58
Interceptor Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Location: Essex, UK Posts: 414	you should be able to connect it using the same method the SDP guys use to read the disks on a pc. http://newton.sunderland.ac.uk/~specfreak/FD1/ but i do not know anything about the 2.8" disks and whether or not they are readable in 3" drives. IMPORTANT NOTE: the 4 pin power connector is back to front on the 3" drives! 12v and 5v are swapped, easy way is to force the connector on backwards, doing this wrong will kill the drive.

20 February 2010, 15:54	#59
IFW Moderator Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: ... Age: 52 Posts: 1,838	I've seen a few requests about directly creating sector dumps from DiskSpare disks. In order to make that happen I'd need stream dumps created with KryoFlux from one or two AUI disks. Let me know if you have a working board and can provide the required stream files; in that case I am sure it would make it into beta 5

20 February 2010, 16:24	#60
Chain A-Collector, repairments Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Czech Rep. Age: 50 Posts: 1,536	man, we really need a small batch of bare boards at least. How about contacting Nusim Ltd.?

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