FS-UAE Net Play

[FrodeSolheim]

Originally Posted by AmigaOnline

And if the game requires
-a joystick (cursor keys+right alt/ctrl) for the player 1

and

-normal cursor keys + other keyboard keys for the player 2

All this at one point
==> Same problem?
Game tested: North & South

Thanks

No, this should not be a problem. The keyboard joystick emulation isn't a "shared Amiga configuration", just a local configuration for one specific player. I mean: If one player emulates a joystick with cursor keys, this does not mean the Amiga cursor keys cannot be used.

Player 1 could have

joystick_port_0 = amiga_joystick
joystick_port_1 = keyboard

And player 2 could have

joystick_port_0 = amiga_joystick
joystick_port_1 = amiga_joystick

With this setup:
- player one will use the cursor keys on his keyboard to control the joystick in port 1, and other keys will control the Amiga keyboard (e.g. shift) as normal.
- player two will have full control over the Amiga keyboard, so his cursor keys will control the Amiga cursor keys.

Rember: joystick_port_1 = keyboard does not mean that there is a keyboard plugged into the port, or that Amiga cursor keys cannot be used -it only means that the local host cursor keys will be mapped to an emulated joystick.

(the amiga_joystick setting will probably be renamed to "dummy joystick" in the next version, to be more descriptive. The "amiga_joystick" setting will still work, and will be aliased to "dummy joystick").

[AmigaOnline]

Thanks again!

About the tweaked server: I personally think that the "max_drift" default value (25) is too high (and above all, the responsiveness seems not so good in this case). Current tests: over a LAN (ping very low).
Do you know if the server app requires a powerful computer?

[FrodeSolheim]

Originally Posted by AmigaOnline

Thanks again!

I take it that it worked

Originally Posted by AmigaOnline

About the tweaked server: I personally think that the "max_drift" default value (25) is too high (and above all, the responsiveness seems not so good in this case). Current tests: over a LAN (ping very low).

Please not focus on the max_drift -this really does not control the responsiveness. It is just a "fallback mechanism" to pause the server a bit if a client cannot keep up for any reason (some IO spike in the client causing FS-UAE to pause for a length of time, or whatever) -and it was just set too low in the first release for Internet play with more than minimal latency. The clients will keep up as best the can, regardless of max_drift.

But issues that *could* affect responsiveness:

- a suboptimal input system in FS-UAE as noticed earlier. This is fixed in unreleased code, and the next beta will have ~10ms less input lag.

- and more importantly: when you say LAN play -is this cabled LAN or wireless LAN? Wireless LAN (and especially a bad wireless LAN) can have detrimental effect on responsiveness due to packet loss and packet resends. Edit: the PING time does not show the packet loss problem, since the PING time is averaged. Perhaps I should include a standard deviation metric as well to detect this issue.

Originally Posted by AmigaOnline

Do you know if the server app requires a powerful computer?

It should require little resources, but it should ideally not run on a server which is very busy with other tasks (as long as there is free CPU time, it should be good).

[AmigaOnline]

Originally Posted by FrodeSolheim

I take it that it worked

Yes!


Please not focus on the max_drift -this really does not control the responsiveness. It is just a "fallback mechanism" to pause the server a bit if a client cannot keep up for any reason (some IO spike in the client causing FS-UAE to pause for a length of time, or whatever) -and it was just set too low in the first release for Internet play with more than minimal latency. The clients will keep up as best the can, regardless of max_drift.

But issues that *could* affect responsiveness:

- a suboptimal input system in FS-UAE as noticed earlier. This is fixed in unreleased code, and the next beta will have ~10ms less input lag.

Great!

- and more importantly: when you say LAN play -is this cabled LAN or wireless LAN? Wireless LAN (and especially a bad wireless LAN) can have detrimental effect on responsiveness due to packet loss and packet resends. Edit: the PING time does not show the packet loss problem, since the PING time is averaged. Perhaps I should include a standard deviation metric as well to detect this issue.

Packet loss is probably one of the problems (I will try with a cable later)



It should require little resources, but it should ideally not run on a server which is very busy with other tasks (as long as there is free CPU time, it should be good).

Playing on the same computer is probably not the best idea in this case (in order to play under the best conditions)

[lesta_smsc]

Netplay with new server worked a lot better - just need to find out how to best set controllers and then I think it should be ok

[FrodeSolheim]

Originally Posted by AmigaOnline

>FrodeSolheim: Are the parallel port joysticks already supported?

Parallel port joystick support is implemented. -Will be included in the next beta

[AmigaOnline]

Originally Posted by FrodeSolheim

Parallel port joystick support is implemented. -Will be included in the next beta

Incredible!

[AmigaOnline]

-> This possible/planned feature could be very useful:

Ability to reconnect on network problems would be nice. Requires all protocol data to be sequenced so communication can be properly resumed (re-send data etc).

If the same process is possible when a desync is detected (not only network problems), it would be really impressive!

[FrodeSolheim]

Originally Posted by AmigaOnline

-> This possible/planned feature could be very useful:

Ability to reconnect on network problems would be nice. Requires all protocol data to be sequenced so communication can be properly resumed (re-send data etc).

If the same process is possible when a desync is detected (not only network problems), it would be really impressive!

No, the same process could not fix a desync (In the case of a network problem, the emulators hasn't gotten out of sync).

I'm not saying it would be impossible to recover from a desync, but it would require another mechanism (transfer all Amiga memory and state from one player to all the others, and resume emulation for example).

But FS-UAE should not get out of sync, unless there are bugs or incompatible configuration, which means that a "resync method" would be kind of pointless. If there are incompatible configuration, the emulators would probably get out of sync again anyway.

Time would be better spent preventing desync: implement checks validating the configuration across all players, etc.

Have you encountered desyncs which you believe can be attributed to bugs in FS-UAE since you bring up this issue?

[AmigaOnline]

Originally Posted by FrodeSolheim

No, the same process could not fix a desync (In the case of a network problem, the emulators hasn't gotten out of sync).

I'm not saying it would be impossible to recover from a desync, but it would require another mechanism (transfer all Amiga memory and state from one player to all the others, and resume emulation for example).

But FS-UAE should not get out of sync, unless there are bugs or incompatible configuration, which means that a "resync method" would be kind of pointless. If there are incompatible configuration, the emulators would probably get out of sync again anyway.

Time would be better spent preventing desync: implement checks validating the configuration across all players, etc.

Have you encountered desyncs which you believe can be attributed to bugs in FS-UAE since you bring up this issue?

Some games are known to cause desync problems:
-Super Cars 2
-Sneech
and some others... (I can make a little list if you want)
These problems have been systematically reported using the old WinUAEXP emulator (based on kaillera: http://kaillera.abime.net/ )


FS-UAE, for its part, seems to always shut down when it occurs (that's good and far better than any other emulator because the players know that there is a problem!).
I have not encountered desyncs attributed to bugs in FS-UAE yet (it's only the beginning, and I will try to report any strange behaviour/desync over time )

If you don't find a way to resume games in case of desync, I think that it would be judicious to implement the manual save state feature instead/in a first time

[FrodeSolheim]

Originally Posted by AmigaOnline

Some games are known to cause desync problems:
-Super Cars 2
-Sneech
and some others... (I can make a little list if you want)
These problems have been systematically reported using the old WinUAEXP emulator (based on kaillera: http://kaillera.abime.net/ )

I am interested in a list, (and a description of *when* during the game desyncs happen) of games having problems in FS-UAE! -But WinUAEXP/kaillera problems are not relevant at all

Originally Posted by AmigaOnline

FS-UAE, for its part, seems to always shut down when it occurs (that's good and far better than any other emulator because the players know that there is a problem!).

Yes, the shutdown is intentional. I think is better to detect this as soon as possible -will make debugging the problem easier since it is known exactly when the desync happens. The detection mechanism only checks chip RAM currently btw, -should add checks to slow etc also.

If you don't find a way to resume games in case of desync, I think that it would be judicious to implement the manual save state feature instead/in a first time [/QUOTE]

As I said in the previous post, it is probably possible to "resume games in case of desync", but I don't want to -I would rather fix the problem than the symptom, if there are any problems.

Anyway, synchronized save states are implemented, actually. I am preparing a 0.9.11beta2 release as we speak

[FrodeSolheim]

Originally Posted by AmigaOnline

I have not encountered desyncs attributed to bugs in FS-UAE yet (it's only the beginning, and I will try to report any strange behaviour/desync over time )

By the way, so we are clear -there are only two kinds of problems:

1. Players have different setup (different configuration values, different kickstart, floppies, floppy overlays files, different HDs etc).
2. A bug in FS-UAE net play.

There is no such thing as a bug in a Amiga game causing desyncs, or similar -it is either (1) or (2).

[AmigaOnline]

Originally Posted by FrodeSolheim

I am interested in a list, (and a description of *when* during the game desyncs happen) of games having problems in FS-UAE! -But WinUAEXP/kaillera problems are not relevant at all

Sure! But it's sometimes diffcult to find exactly "when" the desyncs happen, especially during the game itself

As I said in the previous post, it is probably possible to "resume games in case of desync", but I don't want to -I would rather fix the problem than the symptom, if there are any problems.

You're right. My idea was just to be able to have fun with some probably 'incompatible' games in spite of known desync issues (just try Sneech/2 players during about 15/20 minutes )

Anyway, synchronized save states are implemented, actually. I am preparing a 0.9.11beta2 release as we speak

Fantastic!

[FrodeSolheim]

* Floppy swapping is performed synchronized in net play mode.
* GUI Reset action can be used with net play.
* Save state saving and restoring is now synchronized in net play mode.
* Parallel port joystick emulation (joystick_port_2, joystick_port_3).
* Reduced input lag in net play games.
* Custom gamepad/joystick -> action mapping.
* Custom keyboard -> action mapping.
* Support mounting zip files as (read-only) volumes.
* Read command line arguments earlier (fixes a Configurations dir issue).
* Renamed "amiga_joystick" config value to "dummy joystick" (more descriptive).
* Renamed "amiga_mouse" config value to "dummy mouse" (more descriptive).
* Floppy speed setting was already implemented, but not documented.
* Finally implemented the volume mute function for OpenAL.
* Detect refresh rate properly on Mac OS X.

Download the beta version (binaries and source) here:
http://fengestad.no/wp/fs-uae/download-beta

(Documentation for custom input events -> actions mapping is not written yet)

[AmigaOnline]

Originally Posted by FrodeSolheim

By the way, so we are clear -there are only two kinds of problems:

1. Players have different setup (different configuration values, different kickstart, floppies, floppy overlays files, different HDs etc).
2. A bug in FS-UAE net play.

There is no such thing as a bug in a Amiga game causing desyncs, or similar -it is either (1) or (2).

Just try games like Sneech over a lan/locally (2 players/identical setup and files). The bugs/shutdowns are imho not caused by FS-UAE

[AmigaOnline]

Originally Posted by FrodeSolheim

* Floppy swapping is performed synchronized in net play mode.
* GUI Reset action can be used with net play.
* Save state saving and restoring is now synchronized in net play mode.
* Parallel port joystick emulation (joystick_port_2, joystick_port_3).
* Reduced input lag in net play games.
* Custom gamepad/joystick -> action mapping.
* Custom keyboard -> action mapping.
* Support mounting zip files as (read-only) volumes.
* Read command line arguments earlier (fixes a Configurations dir issue).
* Renamed "amiga_joystick" config value to "dummy joystick" (more descriptive).
* Renamed "amiga_mouse" config value to "dummy mouse" (more descriptive).
* Floppy speed setting was already implemented, but not documented.
* Finally implemented the volume mute function for OpenAL.
* Detect refresh rate properly on Mac OS X.

Download the beta version (binaries and source) here:
http://fengestad.no/wp/fs-uae/download-beta

(Documentation for custom input events -> actions mapping is not written yet)

Yeaaah!

[AmigaOnline]

Originally Posted by AmigaOnline

Just try games like Sneech over a lan/locally (2 players/identical setup and files). The bugs/shutdowns are imho not caused by FS-UAE

Of course I can be wrong

[FrodeSolheim]

Originally Posted by FrodeSolheim

* Floppy swapping is performed synchronized in net play mode.
* Save state saving and restoring is now synchronized in net play mode.

I forgot to mention: I wrote a couple of sections regarding save states and floppy swapping on http://fengestad.no/wp/fs-uae/net-play. -Please read this before using

[FrodeSolheim]

Originally Posted by AmigaOnline

Of course I can be wrong

And I can be wrong too -But my point is that FS-UAE is designed on this principle:
* If FS-UAE setup is identical for all clients, there is nothing a game can to on purpose or by accident that will cause a desync.

But there may exist an synchronization issue I am not (yet) aware of, and I can also have made errors, but I would characterize both as bugs in FS-UAE and would like this fix them (if such errors are found).

When you say "known desync issues (just try Sneech/2 players during about 15/20 minutes" -the question is whether this is a known issue with WinUAEXP/Kaillera, *or* FS-UAE... If you have tested Sneech with FS-UAE, and it failed, I will try Sneech myself and see if I can break the synchronization

[AmigaOnline]

Originally Posted by FrodeSolheim

When you say "known desync issues (just try Sneech/2 players during about 15/20 minutes" -the question is whether this is a known issue with WinUAEXP/Kaillera, *or* FS-UAE... If you have tested Sneech with FS-UAE, and it failed, I will try Sneech myself and see if I can break the synchronization

In fact, this game works really well "offline" (hotseat game) with 2, 3 or more players (Emulators: WinUAE/FS-UAE/WinUAEXP...). The issue only occurs when using the netplay mode (over a cabled LAN):

-with WinUAEXP/Kaillera, a desync occurs (with this software, you just can see that the screen contents are not the same for all players anymore (at one time))
-with FS-UAE, the emulator just shuts down (=problem, probably the same)

I think that it may be better to try the game yourself
The same issue will probably occur with games like Rodland/Super Cars 2.
Of course many other games will work like a charm

Please note that on my side, the setup is always identical for all clients (same checksums)