Why is the homebrew scene on the Amiga not as impressive...

[Bren McGuire]

let me guess you work as a developer

actually everything else that isn't code is always far far underapreciated in this community that seems to be ruled by the might of coders we keep seeing games that are super smart code-wise but an absolute wet paper towel in terms of actual game content (graphics music game design etc)

Originally Posted by CCCP alert

Coding talent is always rarer, it's relatively easy to do pixel art compared to coding, getting them to move at AAA quality coding levels is a very very rare talent......so no different to back then in the 80s and 90s

[saimon69]

Another reason is debbie downers: who honestly would want to be around on the scene when people give negative feedback or moan that is not the next factor 5 game?

[Tigerskunk]

I understand a lot of the references in this and some other threads now after I read the commentaries for Proxima3 on IRN.

After the release of Inviyya I learned the hard way that you just need to do your thing. You cannot please everybody, and even more important, why even care what people you have never seen say about your work.

I mean, if in real life some ugly weirdo who smells like one week of old cum came to you and tells you "LOL, YOUR GAME IS SHIT" after scratching his nutsack in public, you probably wouldn't be too bothered about it.
But if it's someone online you don't have any idea about, you are somehow treating this person's opinion like it's Erwin Kloibhofer's or Manfred Trenz's.

Just do your thing, and don't be too bothered about it.
You will always have some people cheering you, and some people who hate your guts.
Can't change that. And you shouldn't try.

[Photon]

Originally Posted by s2325

If it's not game for A500 there is too much ranting while C64 have no such problem. If it's game for A500 it's compared to old commercial games instead of Public Domain releases.

If we're talking about "public reception", kinda maybe, the C64 scene is more appreciative of anything. They celebrate the fixed and severe limitations, and I do.

But even though the Amiga is less limited by far, and so the span of game quality is much greater, I don't see the comparison with C64. Amiga users might know the span oh so well, but this hasn't stopped anyone who wants to make a game and they should, because it's as challenging as you'd like it to be, and fun.

I guess I don't agree the Amiga homebrew games scene is not as impressive as the C64 one. If C64 gets 40 games a year and the Amiga 20, I don't see it as a difference. The Amiga as all 16-bits+ games do need more resources, whereas the (in comparison 1970s) gfx/music/sfx of e.g. Bruce Lee is just fine on C64 (IMO). This is not to criticize C64, Bruce Lee the game or the 1970s obviously, it's just about the amount of work. Pixel-clicks and keyboard-taps per man-hour.

I think you can find as few or as many new games coming out for your favorite platform as you actively look for them. This is the biggest factor I think.

[Tsak]

Originally Posted by Tigerskunk

Just do your thing, and don't be too bothered about it.
You will always have some people cheering you, and some people who hate your guts.
Can't change that. And you shouldn't try.

100% agree there. There's zero point in trying to appease everyone, especially since there are different tastes and perspectives, often quite conflicting. Enjoying a game or art is highly subjective and personal, so getting varied responses and feedback (ranging from completely positive to downright negative) is fine and something to be expected.

Besides that, over-fixation on criticism and negative reactions is another trap imho (and I absolutely plea guilty for this as well). Sometimes it's easy to miss the 100 positive replies above and just focus on the single bad faith commentator at the bottom. So (if this is the case indeed) just don't fall for it. Try and put things into their correct perspective, do your thing, learn to ignore, learn to let go.

With the above said, I think there is also the opposite perspective though (not often as discussed) which is equally important imho. As creators we are naturally driven towards the "all positive" side of reactions. Feels good and it's great for morale and that's fine and dandy. However if someone stretches that too much and never really engages with the criticism, how does he expects to improve? Favoring or promoting echo-chambers might be great for morale, however offers zero value for self improvement or learning opportunities. Many times quite the opposite. So I think there's a fine balance between "letting go" and using the negative feedback (especially if it holds any merit or juice worth thinking about) as an actual opportunity.

Emphasis on "feedback" here because I think this is a major point of contention that the creators (and the community itself) should also take seriously (not the positive-negative comments ratio or even bad faith players we are mostly consumed talking about). Someone saying "good job" or "well done" or (vice versa) "your game sucks" is no feedback really, but rather a reaction. And if it's hard to get simple reactions (useful as they are), it's even harder for people to actually engage and devote time to explain in detail what they actually like and what not about your creation. Getting plenty and good quality feedback is (without a doubt) a critical part of the game making process, so it's no surprise that in the indie and AAA game-dev world this is considered gold and hard currency.

[hammer]

Originally Posted by trydowave

This topic spawned discussion about a game dev competition quite naturally, this has now been split to it's own thread:

http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=92858

Hopefully this is OK with all.

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Why is the homebrew scene on the Amiga not as impressive as the C64 etc?

The C64 has been getting some great releases, Metal Dust the amazing looking Sams Journey and a game I brought recently, Knight n Grail. (great game btw)

I recently played the new Castlevania on the Speccy and I think its the best game on that system.

I wish the Amiga homebrew scene was like this.

I understand that it takes a whole lot more effort and time to make 16bit games but since there's so much interest (and love) in the Amiga community it would be good if some games could be produced and then sold, maybe via Kickstarter or something.

Im sure most of us would shell out for a new polished game, even if it was download only.

Thoughts?

AmigaOS 3.X with CGX/P96 has the foundation for RTG PC ports and supports Amiga CPU/RTG hardware accelerators. C64 doesn't have a gaming API ecosystem like on AmigaOS 3.X/P96.

[CCCP alert]

Originally Posted by Bren McGuire

let me guess you work as a developer

actually everything else that isn't code is always far far underapreciated in this community that seems to be ruled by the might of coders we keep seeing games that are super smart code-wise but an absolute wet paper towel in terms of actual game content (graphics music game design etc)

not at all, depends on the game, often you can get by with 7 or 8 out of 10 artwork/music but if you wanted to modify Lotus II you would need 10/10 coding, ditto for Shadow of the Beast 1 update for AGA or something.

I am talking about the sort of coding, on any home computer, that was technically way above what the hardware was designed to do or any other coder had managed to get out of the system. Dropped frames/lag affect gameplay in some genres. Could anybody in the scene ever match what First Strike is doing on the Commodore 64 to update Afterburner to the best it can possibly be? However to update the pathetic software scrolling (what a dumb idea) port of APB on C64 with a properly designed one (hardware scroll and status bar horizontally across the top/bottom of screen) then that's bread and butter coding and the whole thing could be massively improved with a homebrew remake with just 7/10 coding, art and SID coding talent. You'd have to be pretty bad for the art/music of an APB update to be a problem in this case lol

[bluescrn]

There's just so many platforms to choose from if you want to try out 'retro game dev' these days.

With 8-bit, the choice is easy, it's generally between the C64 and the NES. Unless you're extremely nostalgic for the Speccy or other 8 bit machines, you've got 2 main choices.

But with 16-bit (or '16-bit-ish graphics capabilities'), there's more options. You could go for the Amiga or ST... but why not try making something for the SNES or Megadrive? They're the best-emulated (or FPGA-recreated) platforms. Maybe even the Neo Geo. Or the 'modern retro' platforms (Speccy Next, Commander 16, Mega 65). GBA is also a fun choice, still 16-bit-like graphics hardware but with a fairly speedy CPU.

Let's face it, the Amiga has some downsides. One-button joysticks! ('up to jump' quickly ruins the nostalgia), Multi-floppy-disk games are a hassle compared to cartridges/rom files, Amiga graphics hardware is weak compared to the 16-bit consoles, and Amiga emulation can often be an underwhelming experience, running 50Hz content on a 60Hz screen.

Yes, people have a lot of love for the Amiga. But they also enjoyed other machines, machines that might seem better choices to develop for these days?

[Tigerskunk]

Originally Posted by bluescrn

Let's face it, the Amiga has some downsides. One-button joysticks! ('up to jump' quickly ruins the nostalgia)

Then create games that do one button movement well...

Originally Posted by bluescrn

, Multi-floppy-disk games are a hassle compared to cartridges/rom files,

true, but then just create one disk games.

Originally Posted by bluescrn

Amiga graphics hardware is weak compared to the 16-bit consoles,

Depends if you are talking OCS or AGA.
But even with OCS you can create some very beautiful games that look en par with the Megadrive if you know what you are doing.

Originally Posted by bluescrn

and Amiga emulation can often be an underwhelming experience, running 50Hz content on a 60Hz screen.

While it's not looking as smooth as on an oldschool CRT, I think it looks good enough. No problems here on my setup.

Originally Posted by bluescrn

Yes, people have a lot of love for the Amiga. But they also enjoyed other machines, machines that might seem better choices to develop for these days?

What I basically wanna say is: You have to play to a systems strengths to make good games.

Then it's all fine.

[dreadnought]

Originally Posted by bluescrn

With 8-bit, the choice is easy, it's generally between the C64 and the NES. Unless you're extremely nostalgic for the Speccy or other 8 bit machines, you've got 2 main choices.

As an aside, Spectrum homebrew scene is very active - perhaps even the most active of all the retro micros. And what people are able to squeeze out of its underpowered hardware is nothing short of incredible (the challenge might be actually an encouraging factor).

[Turrican_3]

Originally Posted by bluescrn

Let's face it, the Amiga has some downsides. One-button joysticks! ('up to jump' quickly ruins the nostalgia)

That's debatable though.

Even though I had access to arcades at the time, I got exposed to consoles relatively late so I basically grew up using that specific control scheme 99% of the time.

And I got so used to this that when Rainbow Island finally released on the PSX, I ended up modding a pad so that I could play it with the classic Amiga joystick using - you guessed it - up to jump.

Multi-floppy-disk games are a hassle compared to cartridges/rom files

That's where WHDload installs come to help.

Amiga graphics hardware is weak compared to the 16-bit consoles

I think this is a very broad statement that is not always necessarily true. Plus, not all people are equally impressed by certain graphical standards (otherwise nobody would play with a C64, for example)

[Megalomaniac]

Constructive criticism or advice is fine, but the reality is that people aren't making retro system games to get rich, it's a hobby - often motivated by a desire to play a game they believed should have been possible on the system in its heyday. Look at all the second attempts at bad arcade conversions, in particular. Similarly, they're designing it to maximise their enjoyment in development (especially as it will always take longer to make a good Amiga game than a good NES / Amstrad / Plus 4 / ZX81 game), not to make maximum money, so if (for example) a developer believe that an R-Type style side-scrolling shooter should have weapon upgrades through cycling-through tokens rather than collecting weapons directly, or coins to spend in a shop, that's what they'll do.

Actually, I think the Amstrad homebrew scene is pretty good, does anyone know about the Plus 4? Neither of those were fully exploited by developers in their heyday. But yes, the Spectrum has a pretty good scene - you're still stuck with only 2 colours in an 8x8 pixel area, but decent things can be done around that limitation.

[saimon69]

Originally Posted by Megalomaniac

But yes, the Spectrum has a pretty good scene - you're still stuck with only 2 colours in an 8x8 pixel area, but decent things can be done around that limitation.

In some cases even that limitation has been overcome - see Nirvana Engine

[Tigerskunk]

I think each machine just poses its own boundaries, and each one is interesting because of that.
And you can create fun and good looking games on all of them.

[Havie]

I'd say we are potentially in a golden age of Amiga homebrew (which I believe started with Mes Beanbag which showed that homebrew on the Amiga could be really greay) - there are some amazing games over the last few years. And like the Speccy, we now have our game engines (no coding); Scorpion Engine and Red Pill - so things can only get better.

So I think Amiga 'homebrew' is possible more impressive...

[pandy71]

Originally Posted by Havie

So I think Amiga 'homebrew' is possible more impressive...

Don't get me wrong but you are very optimistic person, recently Amiga community lost two HW developers, also some SW developers decided to quit...

[saimon69]

Originally Posted by pandy71

Don't get me wrong but you are very optimistic person, recently Amiga community lost two HW developers, also some SW developers decided to quit...

Compared to 2015, when there were max one/two homebrew projects, things got immensely better, though

[Pyromania]

@pandy71

What hardware/software devs did we recently loose in the Amiga community?

[hammer]

Originally Posted by saimon69

Compared to 2015, when there were max one/two homebrew projects, things got immensely better, though

Dread's programmer has an employer intervention issue.

[hammer]

Originally Posted by bluescrn

Let's face it, the Amiga has some downsides. One-button joysticks! ('up to jump' quickly ruins the nostalgia), Multi-floppy-disk games are a hassle compared to cartridges/rom files, Amiga graphics hardware is weak compared to the 16-bit consoles, and Amiga emulation can often be an underwhelming experience, running 50Hz content on a 60Hz screen.

For 50Hz content, I have Freesync/GSync capable monitors. PC Master Race's gaming monitors also apply for emulation.