new amiga 500 doom like !

[Tigerskunk]

Amazing effort...!

[d4rk3lf]

@KK
So basically, even now we can start creating levels for Dread using Doom Builder 2?

Can you give us a quick guide, on what is max texture res for the walls, how many colors, how many textures in total, in what format texture should be (tga, jpeg, png)...
What we can, and what we can't use in Doom Builder 2?
Can we use PPaint to draw the weapons? What would be max resolution, and colors (I guess 16)?
And so on...

Edit.
Oh, I see now in your first video, before all, we basically need that Doom/Dread project preset.

[d4rk3lf]

And here's my first try on hand painted stone texture.

Not sure how it will look though.
Maybe it's too little stones, and contrast too high.
32x32 - 4 colors - and it should be perfectly tillable.

[Tsak]

@d4rk3lf:

>what is max texture res for the walls?

Currently 64x128px per texture strip.

>how many textures in total

Right now it's 8 64x128px textures. But this may change in the future.

>how many colors?

16 colors. Textures use the same palette with enemies, fx, items e.t.c. Meaning whatever appears inside the level. Up until now weapons used the same palette also. But with the usage of sprites (see next episode) this is no longer necessary. Note also that the HUD uses it's own 16 color palette.

>in what format textures should be?

Generally most assets used are in PNG format. For textures, enemy gfx e.t.c. the png doesn't have to be indexed as the in-game palette is defined in an external .txt file (which comes with KKs special tool). Sprite based weapons and a few other gfx need to be indexed.

>Can we use PPaint to draw the weapons?

Well, you can use whatever paint program you fancy obviously

>What would be max resolution for weapons?

-If you want to create bob weapons there is no theoretical max resolution. However note that bob weapons are downscaled to 2x2 when shown in-game. Also RAM is always a concern.

-For sprite based weapons it depends on the sprite channel combination: Current sprite weapons use only 'attached' sprites (4 of them), so weapons can be max 64px wide, while height is unlimited.

-You can also use 8 normal sprites instead, in this case the weapons can be 128px wide and again unlimited height.

-A combination of attached and normal sprites is also possible, f.e. you can use 3 'attached' sprites and 2 normal ones, or 1 'attached' sprite and 6 normal ones e.t.c. Each sprite's width is 16 pixels wide so you get a variable size (between 64px and 128) depending on how many sprites you use in total.

>Colors for weapons?

Again depends on the type:

- Bob weapons use the same 16 color palette with textures, enemies e.t.c.

-If you use normal sprites, each one can be 3 color only, while every 2 sprites share the same 3 color sub-palette.

-Attached sprites can use the full range of the sprites palette = 15 colors total (plus a color reserved for transparency).

[d4rk3lf]

@Tsak
Thanks so much for the detailed feedback.

But without that Doom/Dread preset is pointless right, because I can't load it afterwards?

16 colors per level, objects + enemies sounds like an interesting challenge , but I am sure some great artists (not me ) could do a miracles there.
Wonder if 16 colors was used in Citadela and Ambermoon, they looked pretty colorful.

[hammer]

Originally Posted by KK/Altair

Nice. I had 68010 back in a while but sold it to a friend because I want to keep my A500 in the "stock + 512k slow" config.

The 68010 doesn't improve performance too much (instruction cache for just two instructions?), anyway.


That's exactly the plan. And until too much people come in with differing visions, I'd definitely be up to some coordination to put together the first game or two.

MC68010 has $5 cost from China, hence I did it for fun i.e. after I read 68010 upgrades for A500 many years ago. I traded my A500 rev6a for A3000/030 at 25Mhz in the early 90s before A4000/040's release.
I traded my A3000 for Pentium 150 PC in 1996. My current Amiga hardware is near mint A1200 with incoming parts (e.g. 8MB + 40Mhz FPU card)via a slow delivery service.


My current A500 rev5 was from a school friend from the early 1990s who abandoned it due to a hardware fault. In 2020 during COVID lockdown, I replaced PSU which fixed A500 back to an operational condition which I later upgrade the rev5 motherboard into rev6a motherboard (from a German shop who left a free 68000 installed). I bought ECS Agnus 1MB chip and KS1.3 ROM for the rev6a motherboard and I gutted rev5 motherboard for chip parts (two CIAs, Denise, Paula, Gary chips).

68010 has benefits such as WHDload's quit key function and 3% to 10% performance uplift.

Art content producers need to follow programming guidelines as with any other games.

[rabidgerry]

Originally Posted by d4rk3lf

And here's my first try on hand painted stone texture.

Not sure how it will look though.
Maybe it's too little stones, and contrast too high.
32x32 - 4 colors - and it should be perfectly tillable.

This looks great!

[b0lt-thrower]

Any news, kk?

[Mathesar]

Yeah, any more progress?
Last episode seemed like a real teaser for the next step: sprite based weapons and optimized textures

[KK/Altair]

Originally Posted by Mathesar

Yeah, any more progress?
Last episode seemed like a real teaser for the next step: sprite based weapons and optimized textures

Just having to do some final cuts, record one line, subtitle it all and export. I estimate it will be ready somewhere around Monday to Wednesday.

YouTube analitics show that most of my viewers are active on Sunday, but I'll definitely won't make it this one, and don't want to wait a full week.

[d4rk3lf]

@KK

Can we start building levels in Doom Builder 2 now, even if we don't have that Doom/Dread preset?
Can we add that preset afterwards (once you release it), so all work is not wasted?

[KK/Altair]

Originally Posted by d4rk3lf

@KK

Can we start building levels in Doom Builder 2 now, even if we don't have that Doom/Dread preset?
Can we add that preset afterwards (once you release it), so all work is not wasted?

The easiest way would be for me to just share the presets and the converter. You wouldn't be able to play the levels, but you could go as far as seeing them in preview renderer (GPU based, that simulates the final result quite closely). I didn't share that because I thought it would be quite pointless without being able to actually play it, but I could if you are into some level design.

[d4rk3lf]

That would be amazing mate.
I'll send you PM, to give me that if you want.

If I create something I'd like to share, are you cool if I post it here, or it's better to make separate thread?

[KK/Altair]

Originally Posted by d4rk3lf

@KK

Can we start building levels in Doom Builder 2 now, even if we don't have that Doom/Dread preset?
Can we add that preset afterwards (once you release it), so all work is not wasted?

1. Probably yes, as long as you don't add any objects or use line/sector types. And you'll probably have to retexture it afterwards or make textures with similar names. And fix some errors, etc.
2. Preset and config info is stored in separate file (not in WAD), so most likely yes.

[b0lt-thrower]

A few questions, kk...

How big of a .WAD will fit on a single floppy? Or how many will? How will it work vis-a-vis compression, etc., that is, will the .WAD files be packed in some way, and then unpacked by the executable or a supporting program? Or are you supporting HD installation? I know you want to stick to the baseline 512k/512k A500 as much as possible so I didn't know if HD installation was on your roadmap.

I'll stop hinting around it and just get to the meat of why I'm asking: I really, really want to port the data from Knee Deep in the Dead to this engine, just to show off that yes an Amiga COULD run DOOM.

[Tsak]

Current engine not supporting varying floor levels means you can't do that (....yet )

[b0lt-thrower]

Originally Posted by Tsak

Current engine not supporting varying floor levels means you can't do that (....yet )

Well, baby steps, you know I'm hoping he cracks the floor height thing. Check that, I'm *betting* he does.

[d4rk3lf]

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but from what I understood, even if KK manage to do nice height implementation, that doesn't mean you could just load Doom wad file.
They could be re-created to something similar, from scratch, but not loaded.

And it's no surprise. Doom levels are build around it's engine limitations, and it should be same for Dread.

[KK/Altair]

How big of a .WAD will fit on a single floppy? Or how many will?

First of all, I'm not using WADs for map storage. In fact, I'm currently not using any files at all - just compiling one map into the executable. But eventually maps will be in some custom format. Definitely several maps will fit on one disk, but at this point it's too early to speculate, as I still have some low hanging fruits to reduce map size.

How will it work vis-a-vis compression, etc., that is, will the .WAD files be packed in some way, and then unpacked by the executable or a supporting program?

Compression might be a good idea, but that's too early to even contemplate.

Or are you supporting HD installation?

I'd love to support HD installation at one point, and that's the reason I'm keeping it all in a "one map - one exe" format, so HD users could just throw it somewhere on the disk and enjoy (actually exiting the game back to the system is still a whole other story ). But at one point there definitely be a point (and I expect it quite soon) where I'll start reading maps and assets from the floppy and the game will not be HDD compatible (don't we all love swapping the floppies?). I'd love HDD installation support to come at one point later, but that would require learning to live and talk to the system. And at this point, I'm not even keeping it alive.

I'll stop hinting around it and just get to the meat of why I'm asking: I really, really want to port the data from Knee Deep in the Dead to this engine, just to show off that yes an Amiga COULD run DOOM.

You'd have to wait until floor/ceiling height support is in and probably make a lot of simplifications to the map later on. Assuming of course that I don't remake that myself in the first place.

Well, baby steps, you know I'm hoping he cracks the floor height thing. Check that, I'm *betting* he does.

Exactly. Once at one point I've got everything to work with ceilings, I pushed to make a game. That is: adding sprite drawing, all kind of collisions, writing scripting system (yes, there is one!), coding monsters, items, HUD, implementing weapons and calibrating it all. Otherwise, I would be stuck on improving the engine and all we would have at this point would be just another techdemo. But I'm nearing completion of something resembling a game (and staring YouTube channel along the way) and in the meantime had enough time to rethink best way to approach the floors/ceilings heights, so I'll be back to this topic at one point.

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but from what I understood, even if KK manage to do nice height implementation, that doesn't mean you could just load Doom wad file.
They could be re-created to something similar, from scratch, but not loaded.

Exactly, and to be clear:
- "even if KK manage"? I'm quite positive I can do it.
- I'm using custom numbers for things identifiers, line types and such, and you still need to import texture images, so Doom geometry might load, but lot of things would be wrong.

And it's no surprise. Doom levels are build around it's engine limitations, and it should be same for Dread.

That was basically one of the major reasons of making it a Doom clone instead of Doom port - I could build levels that are actually fun and play nicely with the engine (e.g. doors sliding horizontally vs vertically). The other reason of making it new game was of course that making games is more fun than just cloning them.

[KK/Altair]

And the next episode is online.

[ Show youtube player ]