Was anyone else disappointed with the A1200?

[Thorham]

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

Who cares that the Amiga can't do as much as a modern PC? It still does plenty enough to keep us interested.

Indeed

[Bruce Abbott]

Originally Posted by Promilus

It's funny to see that after you were just proving they did everything they should've for developers

For commercial developers sure. The conversation was about Commodore vs console makers, in which context only commercial development was relevant. Console users were not expected to contribute.

But the Amiga was a home computer, not a console. Home computers were traditionally pitched at hobbyists who wanted to learn how to program and produce their own software. It was these hobbyists (of which a few might become commercial developers) that Commodore could have courted more. Not that they did nothing mind you. They did supply Amiga BASIC, and did publish comprehensive hardware and system software manuals, and did provide good support to those who bothered to sign up for it. But because the focus was on commercial developers they missed out on some of the potential amateur input.

Why they did that is somewhat understandable. Commodore was a US company. In the US most developers were university trained programmers intending to make a business out of it. But the Amiga's biggest sales potential was in the UK and Europe, where most game developers started off as hobbyists with no formal training.

From the beginning Commodore touted the Amiga as a creative machine. They showed off its graphics, sound and animation capabilities. They promoted its multitasking GUI OS with business application potential. But one thing was missing - its appeal to hobbyists who wanted a more powerful machine to get into. Despite good documentation the Amiga was a lot harder to get into than the 8 bitters. One reason for that was the sophisticated multitasking OS, which had great benefits but also needed a lot more care to maintain. Even Commodore's own system programmers struggled with it. There was a clear emphasis on users just being users, with the Amiga's amazing hardware hidden from them.

Those of us who had cut our teeth on earlier home computers did not appreciate this. But had we been supplied with the development tools to handle it we would have been a lot happier. I didn't get into programming properly until getting the Abacus book 'Amiga Machine Language' which came with the Assempro integrated editor/assembler/debugger package. This provided similar functionality to what I was using on the Amstrad CPC. Before that I mostly used Amiga BASIC, which was powerful but slow and painful to use.

I did eventually become a commercial developer, but it took two years for me to become sufficiently familiar with the Amiga to feel confident in doing that. I became the coder for a small company producing educational software written in BASIC. My job was to utilize the power of assembly language to make better programs that looked more professional. If it hadn't been for being asked to do that I probably wouldn't have done much, as there was no incentive to do so. I would have left it to the 'big boys' and just become another non-productive user.

[dreadnought]

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

Instead of getting upset about what the Amiga might have been that didn't eventuate, we should celebrate what it did become and enjoy it. Who cares if there are only a few thousand of us? That small community is still as vibrant as it ever was. Who cares that the Amiga can't do as much as a modern PC? It still does plenty enough to keep us interested.

Here we go again with the motte & bailey. This thread has Past Simple in the title for a reason, and it's not about who else is disappointed with A1200 now (pretty much nobody) but who was disappointed with it back then and why.

[hammer]

Originally Posted by Promilus

Design centered around amiga chipset would only last as a gaming console so ... where's the actual horror? 68k was EOP, from non x86 only ARM came out decent but I can hardly imagine Commodore engineers would invest into that. So you'd end up with PC-like Amiga with PA-RISC sh**ty processor and hardly backward compatible h/w and OS. AND of course gaming console as well...
Horror!

Commodore wasn't large enough and lacked 100% focus to continue a complex 68K CPU R&D at a competitive performance e.g. Tramiel's Commodore already fu_ked up the 65xx CPU family after purchasing MOS Technology, Inc.

[Bruce Abbott]

Originally Posted by dreadnought

Here we go again with the motte & bailey. This thread has Past Simple in the title for a reason, and it's not about who else is disappointed with A1200 now (pretty much nobody) but who was disappointed with it back then and why.

But some people seem to have forgotten what the actual situation was 'back then', and are arguing that the A1200 was disappointing because it wasn't up to the standards of future PCs (and/or game consoles).

From my recollection the majority of fans who were disappointed with the A1200 on release were disappointed before it was even a thing, and it would take something truly earth-shattering to change their minds. Nothing that Commodore could realistically produce would satisfy them. The sooner those people piss off and go play with their PCs or PlayStations or whatever the better.

[TCD]

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

But some people seem to have forgotten what the actual situation was 'back then', and are arguing that the A1200 was disappointing because it wasn't up to the standards of future PCs (and/or game consoles).

Wolfenstein 3D is a first-person shooter video game developed by id Software and published by Apogee Software and FormGen. Originally released on May 5, 1992, for DOS

Alone in the Dark was released in late 1992. It seems that you have forgotten what the actual situation was 'back then'.

[hammer]

Originally Posted by Promilus

Playing 3d games at several FPS was a way to go in early 90s... Nowadays ppl tend to buy extremely expensive gaming equipment (eSport-like) to reach well over 200FPS with 144Hz refresh rate and the funny fact is... it doesn't necessarily help as the actual choppiness or occasional slowdowns are from that "1%" framerate which dips to <60 ... so as long as it is well over 60 100% of the time there should be no issues. And game developers doesn't necessarily fight those bottlenecks with framerate drops because the fact is... there's always some equipment which handles them well so what's the point. And that's why current sales of gaming PCs or consoles are looking still pretty good. And why gaming industry thrives despite many of the games being overly flashy and without actual artistry...

For competitive gaming, the main reason for the +144 hz refresh rate is to increase the user's input control pole rate.

A gamer who can submit their control input earlier than the other players' has the edge i.e. the Mexican stand-off situation.

4K is for single-player story games while 1080p 144hz is for competitive games.

-----------
My 160hz gaming monitor has a "passive cheat" with magnifying and a center aim point that the anti-cheat software can't detect. I don't play competitive games atm, hence it's in standard "HDMI 2.1" 120 hz mode.

[hammer]

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

But some people seem to have forgotten what the actual situation was 'back then', and are arguing that the A1200 was disappointing because it wasn't up to the standards of future PCs (and/or game consoles).

Future?

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

From my recollection the majority of fans who were disappointed with the A1200 on release were disappointed before it was even a thing, and it would take something truly earth-shattering to change their minds. Nothing that Commodore could realistically produce would satisfy them. The sooner those people piss off and go play with their PCs or PlayStations or whatever the better.

A1200 was JR'ed when there was a "healthy profit margin" for A1200.

Valve's Steam Deck has the "open game console" business model which is close to Amiga's "open game console" CD32 business model. Steam Deck supports a keyboard and a mouse.

Steam Deck's ArchLinux-based Steam OS 3.x is open-source.

[hammer]

Originally Posted by smellysocks77

Indeed, all of them fine apps.
Unfortunately, none of them IBM compatible and one very disappointed Dad when he tried to edit that all important MS Word Doc he needed for Monday am.

Not saying you bought an Amiga 1200 to do Turbo Tax (you didnt). Not saying pay MS to port Word to Amiga.
But a bit of licensing or something for that propriety File Type by Commodore on behalf of these Amiga vendors may have saved poor students a PC purchase that bit longer and and made your standard 1200 that bit more saleable to your average computer illiterate.

It was all about being IBM compatible, right.

My A3000 was Microsoft Office capable by faking as a Macintosh.

In the early 1990s, the fight is with Word Perfect for Windows vs Lotus AmiPro vs MS Word.

Stock A1200 with 2 MB Chip RAM, slow PIO mode 0 IDE, and Shapeshifter... painful. I miss my A3000's DMA SCSI. IDE PIO mode 0 is frozen in the 1986 era. 1st ATA-1 was in 1987 which includes single-word DMA 0, 1, 2, and multi-word DMA 0. ATA IDE restored SCSI's DMA features after 1986 IDE's PIO 0's stupidity.

A3000/A4000 wasn't price vs performance competitive for home/small office desktop computers. There was a large price gap between A1200 and A4000/030.


https://archive.org/details/amiga-wo...ge/n7/mode/2up
Amigaworld, October 1993, Page 66 of 104
Amiga 4000/040 @ 25Mhz for $2299 (WTF? price close to Pentium PC clone)
Amiga 4000/030 @ 25Mhz for $1599 (wholesale price for 68030-25 was tracking Intel's 386DX-25 in 1992)

AMD's 386DX-40 undercuts both 68030-25 and 386DX-25 in 1992. By 1994, AMD's semiconductor revenues are larger than Motorola's.

Page 82 of 104
M1230X's 68030 @ 50Mhz has $349
1942 Monitor has $389
A1200 with 85MB HDD has $624.
A1200 with 130MB HDD has $724. Uncompetitive for 386SX-16-like solution.

Not out of the box.

VS

https://vintageapple.org/pcworld/pdf...tober_1993.pdf
October 1993, Page 13 of 354,
ALR Inc, Model 1 has Pentium 60-based PC for $2495. :-P


https://vintageapple.org/pcworld/pdf..._June_1993.pdf
Gateway Party List, Page 72 of 314

4SX-33 with 486-SX 33Mhz, 4MB RAM, 170 MB HDD, Windows Video accelerator 1MB video RAM, 14-inch monitor for $1494,
4DX-33 with 486-DX 33Mhz, 8MB RAM, 212 MB HDD, Windows Video accelerator 1MB video RAM, 14-inch monitor for $1895,

Page 128 of 314
Polywell Poly 486-33V with 486SX-33, 4MB of RAM, SVGA 1MB VL-Bus, price: $1250


https://vintageapple.org/pcworld/pdf...ugust_1993.pdf
Gateway Party List, Page 62 of 324

4SX-33 with 486-SX 33Mhz, 4MB RAM, 212MB HDD, Windows Video accelerator 1MB video RAM, 14-inch monitor for $1495,
4DX-33 with 486-DX 33Mhz, 8MB RAM, 212 MB HDD, Windows Video accelerator 1MB video RAM, 14-inch monitor for $1795,

Commodore's "office desktop box Amiga" was beaten by Gateway 2000 in the critical 1993 year. Stop looking at IBM as a price guide.

Even if MS Office was available for Amiga, it would lose the "performance vs cost" argument. Typical defenders for boxed Amigas would reply with Video Toaster defense. Video Toaster is a tiny niche market when compared to larger DTP and office desktop markets.

A4000/030's asking price not appealing as an office desktop computer.

Needs a cost-reduced A4000/LC040/missing Zorro III bus board SKU matching Gateway 2000's 4SX-33 PC's price.
Needs a cost-reduced A4000/040/missing Zorro III bus board SKU matching Gateway 2000's 4DX-33 PC's price.
The Zorro III bus board is an optional upgrade with a healthy profit margin.

Zorro III bus board could have a range product range e.g.
2 Zorro III slots.
4 Zorro III slots.
4 Zorro III with inline Video and ISA slots.

[hammer]

Originally Posted by Thomas Richter

Exactly.

https://blog.playstation.com/2022/03...ation-studios/
The History of Housemarque – from the Finnish Demoscene to PlayStation Studios

This particular demo scene group resulted in Elf Mania, Star Dust, and Super Star Dust.

[hammer]

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

A machine with PA-RISC sh**ty processor and hardly backward compatible h/w and OS would not have helped. It would be an outlier. The big advantage of all the Amigas Commodore produced is that they are all part of the same family. Even the CD32 can easily be turned into the equivalent of an A1200. This binds the community together and makes our efforts more worthwhile. The only exception to that is NG 'Amigas' with OS4, which have done the opposite. A PA-RISC based 'Amiga' would have made it worse.

Amiga PPC wasn't cost-effective and has departed from A500's "power without the price" entry vector.

Amiga PPC wan't even Raspberry Pi's "bang per buck" value. Raspberry Pi is mostly manufactured by Sony UK, LOL.

Without the PiStorm gateway and 68K-to-ARM translation software, the ARM CPU is not compatible with the 68K family.

I'm aware of TI's ARM-based Octavo SOC being able to talk to 68000's bus which still needs 68K-to-ARM translation software.

PA-RISC-based "Amiga" is dependent on the price vs performance factors. If there's a modern PowerPC solution with RPi 5B's cost and performance, I'll buy it. it's a no-brainer as to why ARM is smashing PowerCrap into oblivion.

For the current desktop computer market, both Apple and Qualcomm can't sell shit hardware.

[Thomas Richter]

Originally Posted by hammer

This particular demo scene group resulted in Elf Mania, Star Dust, and Super Star Dust.

Which is the wrong kind of software to create a sustainable ecosystem. This is software for teenies without deep pockets. What you need is an audience for your system that has sufficient money to support the development of your hardware. IBM had the business buyers. Apple had the creative innovators. CBM had? A couple of kids pirating games? They bought the small systems, as cheap as possible obviously. That does not support your company sufficiently to pay for innovations.


Again, "home computers" worked 10 years ago in the C64 age. It was turning around at the time the IBM PC and Apple become approximately cheap enough to be of interest for the serious buyers, and they did not need a home computer - but had sufficient money. CBM did not realize that and considered that "doing another home computer" would be a path to the future - but it was just copying an outdated business model from the past.

[TEG]

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

But some people seem to have forgotten what the actual situation was 'back then', and are arguing that the A1200 was disappointing because it wasn't up to the standards of future PCs (and/or game consoles).

What was disappointing was not the machine per se, although everyone was waiting for a DSP or at least a math coprocessor, but, as usual, the inadequacy of vision from Commodore. I mean being reassured on the longevity of the machine by explaining it will be quickly expandable as the PC was. Showing official memory cards or cpu cards even in Beta stage or whatever to say "We will support you".

You made an investment and so you have the hope it last for some years, especially in those time were all was moving very fast.

Instead of that, the official communication about the machine was limited, specialized Commodore shops were closing. We were witnessing the disintegration of Commodore distribution network since some years due to the lack of innovation.

So in that sense, yeah, it wasn't up to the standards of future PC which was, on the contrary, clearly draw.

---
Thanks @dreadnought for pointing the "motte & bailey" technic I didn't know.

[sokolovic]

Originally Posted by TCD

Alone in the Dark was released in late 1992. It seems that you have forgotten what the actual situation was 'back then'.

Is really the A1200 guilty for not having an Alone in the Dark or a Wolf3D port back then ?
The machine was capable enough to run these games, it was a choice of the publishers not to release them on the machine.

[TCD]

Originally Posted by sokolovic

Is really the A1200 guilty for not having an Alone in the Dark or a Wolf3D port back then ?
The machine was capable enough to run these games, it was a choice of the publishers not to release them on the machine.

I'll give that a two part answer if you don't mind:
1) Bruce claimed that the A1200 is now compared to future consoles and PCs seen from the time of the A1200's release. I simply gave examples of games that existed on PC at that time.
2) The A1200 didn't need ports of anything. It needed games that showed what the hardware was capable of that the A500/A500+/A600 wasn't.

[TEG]

Originally Posted by sokolovic

The machine was capable enough to run these games, it was a choice of the publishers not to release them on the machine.

This can sum up perfectly the grief the community have about Commodore management. Failing in the professional market, especially the video/graphism one but in the game market too. A one that the brand had a huge recognition due to the C64/A500 success.

[Dunny]

Originally Posted by sokolovic

Is really the A1200 guilty for not having an Alone in the Dark or a Wolf3D port back then ?
The machine was capable enough to run these games, it was a choice of the publishers not to release them on the machine.

Most PCs that I had access to couldn't play them either, and the one that could had an adlib sound card so it sounded way worse than the Amiga did.

[hammer]

Originally Posted by Thomas Richter

Which is the wrong kind of software to create a sustainable ecosystem. This is software for teenies without deep pockets. What you need is an audience for your system that has sufficient money to support the development of your hardware. IBM had the business buyers. Apple had the creative innovators. CBM had? A couple of kids pirating games? They bought the small systems, as cheap as possible obviously. That does not support your company sufficiently to pay for innovations.

Amiga's best revenue years are 1989, 1990, and 1991 which is under Wintel's control over the PC platform from IBM.

Cite: https://dfarq.homeip.net/commodore-f...ory-1978-1994/

Wintel took over the PC platform's control during the rapid success of 1990's Windows 3.0 release and MS-DOS.

Intel's PCI and NEC-led VESA's VLB show IBM's MCA being irrelevant.

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/...fig3_353348255
IBM's PC market share

1989: 26.5% for IBM... NEC-led (with the "gang of nine") VESA standards organization was incorporated in July 1989.

1990: 25% for IBM... MS Windows 3.0 was released in 1990.

1991: 23% for IBM, 56% for PC clones (40% for other PC clones, 16% for Compaq, Dell, Gateway, AST, and HP). AIM alliance was established on October 2, 1991.

1992: 19% for IBM, 58% for PC clones. Intel-led PCI Special Interest Group was formed in 1992. Intel-led PCI displaced NEC-led VLB standard.

1993: 18.9% for IBM, 65% for PC clones.

1994: 13.5% for IBM, 68% for PC clones.

IBM shifts to PowerPC focus for desktop markets along with Motorola and Apple before 1994. The PC part of PowerPC was IBM's attempt to be the successor to the IBM PC and remove Intel.

Apple has a 10% to 15% market share from 1989 to 1994.

For this topic, A1200/A4000 was relevant from Q4 1992.

Amiga's core revenue market and audience are in games. Commodore's Amiga business model is effectively an open games console with weak copy protection and a missing 1st party game studio. CD32's CD-ROM medium was an attempt to reduce piracy.

Commodore's open Amiga "game console" business model reminds me of Valve's open Steam Deck handheld game console but with major differences i.e. stronger DRM, has 1st party game studio, and a very low-cost entry Source 2 3D engine. Minus inflation, Steam Deck's price range is similar to A500/A1200's price range.

Amiga's non-user upgrade Amiga graphics chipset set originated from its game console design origins.

Both Commodore and Valve have established sales distribution channels.

Valve obtains a revenue cut for any PC game sale on its sales distribution platform.

During the critical Xmas Q4 1993, Apple price matched 486SX-25 PC clones with $1000 68LC040-25 based Quadra 605/LC 475/Performa 475 from October 1993. Apple has zeroed sum the PC competition.

A4000/030 wasn't price competitive for an office desktop computer box.

Commodore's core business model is an open Amiga "game console" with a keyboard, a mouse, and a game controller.

IBM wasn't relevant for PC clones when AGA was released.

-----------
In the UK's 1993 market, the price gap between A1200 and A4000/030 was covered by the Commodore DT486DX-25.
https://dosdays.co.uk/topics/1993.php
Commodore DT486dx-25 with 4 MB RAM, 52 MB HDD, MS-DOS 5.0, Win3.1, mouse, 14" color VGA monitor for £760. Commodore has addressed the Doom and office desktop computer problem with their own Commodore PC 486DX-25 clone!

The superior performance vs cost is with Commodore DT486DX-25 not the A1200 with 3rd party 030@ 50Mhz accelerator or A4000/030!

Commodore is effectively selling the full 68040 class A4000 for A1200 with 3rd party 030@ 50Mhz accelerator price. Good job Commodore Germany.

Apple is 100% focused on its Mac platform.

https://forums.atariage.com/topic/26...omment-4915711
Commodore Sweden's sales team's PC clones led the way to crush the Amiga from the SOHO market.

Commodore European sales teams wanted to be Escom.

[hammer]

Originally Posted by Dunny

Most PCs that I had access to couldn't play them either, and the one that could had an adlib sound card so it sounded way worse than the Amiga did.

"Most PCs " is flawed argument when the gaming PC minority is larger than Amiga's install base.


From https://www.intel.fr/content/dam/doc...ual-report.pdf
Intel reported the following
1. In 1994's fourth quarter, Pentium unit sales accounted for 23 percent of Intel's desktop processor volume.
2. Millions of Pentiums were shipped.
3. During Q4 1993 and 1994, a typical PC purchase was a computer featuring the Intel 486 chip.
4. Net 1994 revenue reached $11.5 billion.
5. Net 1993 revenue reached $8.7 billion.
6. Growing demand and production for Intel 486 resulted in a sharp decline in sales for Intel 386 from 1992 to 1993.
7. Sales of the Intel 486 family comprised the majority of Intel's revenue during 1992, 1993, and 1994.
8. Intel reached its 6 to 7 million Pentiums shipped goal during 1994. This is only 23 percent unit volume.

By the end of 1994, Intel's Pentium PC install base crushed the entire Amiga install base of 4 to 5 million units!

According to Dataquest November 1989, VGA crossed more than 50 percent market share in 1989 i.e. 56%.
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/c...lysis_1989.pdf

Low-End PC Graphics Market Share by Standard Type
Estimated Worldwide History and Forecast

Total low-end PC graphic chipset shipment history and forecast
1987 = 9.2. million, VGA 16.4% market share.
1988 = 11.1 million, VGA 34.2%.
1989 = 13.7 million, VGA 54.6%.
1990 = 14.3 million, VGA 66.4%.
1991 = 15.8 million, VGA 76.6%.
1992 = 16.4 million, VGA 84.2%.
1993 = 18.3 million, VGA 92.4%.

The estimate for the Amiga AGA install base is about 600,000 units. PC VGA crushed the Amiga AGA.


https://dosdays.co.uk/topics/Manufac...tseng_labs.php
By 1991, according to IDC, Tseng Labs held a 25% market share in the total VGA market.

Tseng Labs crushed Amiga's install base.

[hammer]

Originally Posted by TCD

I'll give that a two part answer if you don't mind:
1) Bruce claimed that the A1200 is now compared to future consoles and PCs seen from the time of the A1200's release. I simply gave examples of games that existed on PC at that time.
2) The A1200 didn't need ports of anything. It needed games that showed what the hardware was capable of that the A500/A500+/A600 wasn't.

A1200 could run Wolf3D when somebody figures out blitter assist C2P and Sega Mega Drive's Wolf3D line skip ticks e.g. Dread.

Commodore was deciding between Wolf3D and Wing Commander for CD32.

Officially, Commodore pushed CD32 as packed pixels capable with Akiko to game publishers.

Commodore wasn't selling Akiko chips and PCB reference designs to 3rd parties Amiga add-on vendors e.g. 3rd party A1208 card with Fast RAM and Akiko. Commodore's CD1200 expansion board has a 68030 socket and Fast RAM SIMM slot. Commodore's engineers are aware that the Amiga AGA platform needs to be at fast 386DX/fast VGA levels.

Commodore approved Doom capable 486SX-25 and 486DX-25 PCs to be priced above A1200 and below A4000/030 instead of releasing 68EC020-25/68EC020-28 with Fast RAM equipped A1200.



https://bigbookofamigahardware.com/b...t.aspx?id=1604
The official Commodore position on A1200's chunky pixel issue.

The “chunky to planar” logic was thought out in a lunchtime conversation between Beth Richard (system chip design), Chris Coley (board design), and Ken Dyke (software) over Subway sandwiches on a picnic table in a nearby park one day, because Ken was telling us how much of a pain it was to shuffle bits in software to port games from other platforms to the Amiga planar system. We took the idea to Hedley Davis, who was the system chip team manager and lead engineer on Akiko and he said we could go ahead with it. I showed him the “napkin sketch” of how I thought the logic would work and was planning on getting to it the next day as it was already late afternoon by that point. I came in the next morning and Hedley had completed it already, just from the sketch!


Ken Dyke wasn't on par with 3rd party Amiga Doom clone developers. Dread has disproved the CD32 team! The problem wasn't just John Carmack.