Will the Vampire 500 V2 revive the Atari ST scene?

[Exit]

Originally Posted by majsta

No one is quitting anything, we are working more than ever with more projects to come. We just don't write much on the forums like before for known reasons. Right now few more models are in production. Regarding Atari, like I was saying if there is interest from their side we are open to all options

But first Amigaaaa

not Ata-

(just kidding)

yes its good to read they are in full production, now wait on the v1200

[wawa]

atari st was a cool looking machine. few friends owned one. its cool that vampire fits there too. the more the better.

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by wawa

atari st was a cool looking machine. few friends owned one. its cool that vampire fits there too. the more the better.

I'm afraid it won't fit very well. Later Atari maybe, but not ST. And not "as is".

Many ST programs (especially games) rely heavily on cpu timing and will break with fast cpu.
Old TOS (like 1.62) need 24-bit addressing limit.
The Amiga only uses autovector interrupts, so i doubt the cpu on the vampire knows how to handle mfp68901 ones.
Unlike Amiga, the ST chips can generate bus errors (especially in user mode) and these need to be handled - the vampire cpu probably doesn't catch them.

I'm not saying it can't work at all, just that it won't be as easy as it first looks.

[eXeler0]

Originally Posted by meynaf

I'm afraid it won't fit very well. Later Atari maybe, but not ST. And not "as is".

Many ST programs (especially games) rely heavily on cpu timing and will break with fast cpu.
Old TOS (like 1.62) need 24-bit addressing limit.
The Amiga only uses autovector interrupts, so i doubt the cpu on the vampire knows how to handle mfp68901 ones.
Unlike Amiga, the ST chips can generate bus errors (especially in user mode) and these need to be handled - the vampire cpu probably doesn't catch them.

I'm not saying it can't work at all, just that it won't be as easy as it first looks.

I Think that right now it should be seen as nothing more than a proof of concept.
I'm sure Atari support is way down on the todo-list, but given time, its not far fetched to imagine they'd do a separate "branch" of the ApolloCore to work with ST.

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[Locutus]

Originally Posted by meynaf

I'm afraid it won't fit very well. Later Atari maybe, but not ST. And not "as is".

Many ST programs (especially games) rely heavily on cpu timing and will break with fast cpu.
Old TOS (like 1.62) need 24-bit addressing limit.
The Amiga only uses autovector interrupts, so i doubt the cpu on the vampire knows how to handle mfp68901 ones.
Unlike Amiga, the ST chips can generate bus errors (especially in user mode) and these need to be handled - the vampire cpu probably doesn't catch them.

I'm not saying it can't work at all, just that it won't be as easy as it first looks.

Timing and 32bit clean addressing aren't a issue on the intended target Atari configurations (Which would then likely be EmuTOS + MiNT).

Ofcourse interrupts and trap handling i expect to break as well. but then again Gunnar keeps saying its 100% compatible so hey ;-)

[kovacm]

@meynaf
my thoughts exactly!
it would be very usable if Vampire keep 100% compatibility with games and other ST non-GEM software.

@Locutus
yes, if it runs only clean apps then Atari Vampire ST would be like running EmuTOS + MiNT or simple Aranym. Aranym will gave you 24bit hires on any PC + super speed.

If Vampire on ST could also boost video resolutions and colors (like SAGA on Amiga), than it has much sense!

Than ST price will sky rocket

[Locutus]

Well, if it works hasn't been shown at all.

In all honesty i dislike the kind of false advertisement this is doing. The only thing shown is that a board plugs into a socket physically, and that's it. But with this kind of application that this is actually going to work.

Again trying to sell the Vampire as this 'it does everything and make pancakes'

Lets first see....

[Zetr0]

Q: "Will the Vampire 500 V2 revive the Atari ST scene?"

In the long run, with the exception of a "buzz word" a piece of hardware cannot single handedly "revive" a platform. It requires software developers to take advantage of the new hardware for the masses.

The effect of the VampireV2 on the A600 is nothing short of game-changing for sure, however the A600 is not a "sole" platform since its essentially an SMD based A500+ with IDE.

The Atari ST, does enjoy a range of upgrades including 030 / 060 based processors so I don't see it (The Vampire2) changing much for the "scene" if you will - to do that you need to get developers / coders of the platform on-board.

To do that you need incentives and a static ISA for programmers - interestingly incentives can be seen and shared (i.e. V2 Hardware etc) and the Apollo 0'80 is slowly become mature enough to have a static ISA - which is sorely needed... well that and an FPU


... but all good things come to those whom wait and it would be nice to see this project cross-over to other 68k moto implementations like Mac's - MegaDrive's... Atari Jaguar's.... and now I am just randomly mentioning systems with a 68k in.....

[eXeler0]

@Zetr0 yes "revive" is kind of a relative phrase. Maybe "boost" would have been a better word in this case.
But I'm pretty sure that someone, somewhere will make it work in the end, even if its just a heavy hack with little usefulness.

As for Atari Jaguar mentioned way down. Trying to make use of the 68080 in that architecture sounds like a nightmare ;-)
The 68000 in that one didn't really do much of the "heavy lifting". It was enough to do what it was supposed to do between the two main Chips "Tom" and "Jerry". I imagine a 68080 would be severely bottlenecks by the rest of the architecture. That is, if you wanted to program for it the way you were supposed to and not simply run everything in software and ignore the Tom "GPU".

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[eXeler0]

And now another announcement from BigGun. Apparently the standalone "Natami" board will be possible to turn both into Amiga and Atari.
Sort of entering FPGA Arcade etc territory here, but of course understandable that they want to widen the number of potential buyers.
Seems the work on a standalone board came maybe sooner than most of us expected. Right now, I don't know which comes first, the standalone board or the V1200.

Link:

http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge...=2723&z=EX-N7l

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[jarp]

Err so does this mean they have shifted the focus from producing Vampire accelerators to produce standalone Apollo boards?

I mean Vampire 600 production has been in halt for months or so due to lack of capacity to meet the demand and recently they said they have finally outsourced manufacturing the boards and expect soon to deliver 200 boards every few weeks or so. There is currently queue of 1000 Vampire 600 boards and it's increasing every day so I bet it will take half an year to deliver all Vampire 600 boards yet still they are saying they can start selling standalone boards in few months?

I just don't understand what's going on, seems like something is going on, has kipper2k and majsta quit for good and remaining Apollo team has different interests? Don't take me wrong, I am happy. I will buy Vampire 600 and I will buy standalone board for sure and I respect their work a lot and when I mean a lot I mean A LOT. It's just weird to observe these mixed signals...

[idrougge]

Vampire is an accelerator using the Apollo core. Just like a Dell is a computer with an Intel processor. And you can make your own accelerator or computer based on the Apollo core because it's open source.

[Locutus]

Ehhh, the Apollo core is very much not Opensource.....

The board layout of the original vampire 1 was iirc.

[eXeler0]

@jarp
I can only tell you what I read since I'm not in the team. I don't think has anything to do with anyone quitting.
I even think it makes sense. A standalone board is probably easier to do than a V1200. All the Amiga model specific boards have a custom design limited by the motherboard layout and case spacing +legacy issues such as running off the internal power, using proprietary connectors etc...
A new standalone board has none of these restrictions so as long as you are outsourcing assembly anyway, a standalone board is probably easier to develop and produce.


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[TuKo]

[kipper2k]

Originally Posted by jarp

Err so does this mean they have shifted the focus from producing Vampire accelerators to produce standalone Apollo boards?

I mean Vampire 600 production has been in halt for months or so due to lack of capacity to meet the demand and recently they said they have finally outsourced manufacturing the boards and expect soon to deliver 200 boards every few weeks or so. There is currently queue of 1000 Vampire 600 boards and it's increasing every day so I bet it will take half an year to deliver all Vampire 600 boards yet still they are saying they can start selling standalone boards in few months?

I just don't understand what's going on, seems like something is going on, has kipper2k and majsta quit for good and remaining Apollo team has different interests? Don't take me wrong, I am happy. I will buy Vampire 600 and I will buy standalone board for sure and I respect their work a lot and when I mean a lot I mean A LOT. It's just weird to observe these mixed signals...

the first big batch of V600 is currently being assembled and i should hopehully receive in 10 - 14 days. if all is good then a bigger order will be placed every 3 weeks so there should be 600 + more by years end.

The V500+ vampire is on the way to Majsta so the testing still has to be completed on that.. In the meanwhile work progresses on the v1200 and variious Phoenix boards. Also work is ongoing with Atari implementation while we wait...

here is a teaser...

http://apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=5&note=2732

[jarp]

Originally Posted by kipper2k

the first big batch of V600 is currently being assembled and i should hopehully receive in 10 - 14 days. if all is good then a bigger order will be placed every 3 weeks so there should be 600 + more by years end.

The V500+ vampire is on the way to Majsta so the testing still has to be completed on that.. In the meanwhile work progresses on the v1200 and variious Phoenix boards. Also work is ongoing with Atari implementation while we wait...

here is a teaser...

http://apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=5&note=2732

Thank you kipper2k for clearing that up. I was afraid I never get to finish my Amiga 600 super gaming console in aluminum enclosure project due to lackof Vampire 600

But this Atari thing really got me unguarded. I should have my old Atari 1024ST on my grandparent's attic, seems soon may be time to dig that one up and clear the dust! I have plenty of love for all platforms.

[idrougge]

Originally Posted by Locutus

Ehhh, the Apollo core is very much not Opensource.....

The board layout of the original vampire 1 was iirc.

Oh, you're right.

[eXeler0]

Originally Posted by jarp

Thank you kipper2k for clearing that up. I was afraid I never get to finish my Amiga 600 super gaming console in aluminum enclosure project due to lackof Vampire 600

But this Atari thing really got me unguarded. I should have my old Atari 1024ST on my grandparent's attic, seems soon may be time to dig that one up and clear the dust! I have plenty of love for all platforms.

<wiseass>
If you have an "Atari 1024ST" you might wanna sell it on eBay, might be the only one in existence ;-)
</wiseass>

@kipper2k
I heard there is a whole bunch of various mobo layouts between all the Atari ST/STF/STE 520/1040 etc. How do you intend to deal with it, if at all?


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[kovacm]

Originally Posted by eXeler0

<wiseass>
If you have an "Atari 1024ST" you might wanna sell it on eBay, might be the only one in existence ;-)
</wiseass>

@kipper2k
I heard there is a whole bunch of various mobo layouts between all the Atari ST/STF/STE 520/1040 etc. How do you intend to deal with it, if at all?

Here you have it: http://www.atari-wiki.com/?title=Ata...oard_revisions

and here you have scheme of custom Atari ST chips (yes, Atari have custom chips...): http://www.chzsoft.de/asic-web/