68080/68060 discussion, comparisons etc

[hammer]

Originally Posted by Promilus

Well then why fast PIO isn't pointless but slow SATA is? when you can use inexpensive SATA SSD but on amiga you must use sata2ide converter. If you don't know there's LiteSATA FPGA implementation which is OpenSource. All you have to do is implement it and write a driver for AOS. Yes, speed might still be somewhat limited but... that'd be "native controller" and most likely way faster than PIO IDE anyway. So if that's pointless then AMMX, 64bit etc. etc. is pretty much useless as well.

Scsi.device or any mass storage device driver needs to be resident in ROM for booting the mass storage AmigaOS.

KS 3.X and KS314 ROM's scsi.device was changed to support more than 4GB mass storage.

Originally Posted by Promilus

Well, well, and what exactly does it have to do with anything? Except Amiga IDE speed is roughly the same sh*t it was during 040 era with FastATA MKII? Isn't there a room for improvement? Yes there is, but somehow there's focus on faster CPU core which is pretty much just as useful/useless.

Faster CPU benefits games such as Frontier: Elite II

[ Show youtube player ]
DaemonClaw AMOS background parallax demo is smoother on 50Mhz 68000. It's unplayable on stock A500.

AC68080's good sales result reflects the priorities in the Amiga community.

Wicher 508i's IDE controller is faster than A1200's IDE controller.

FYI, I use to have A3000/030 @25Mhz with a SCSI controller.

Originally Posted by Promilus

Yup, yup... and that's why there are so many OS projects using OS libs with decent speed. Because you OBVIOUSLT CAN'T do that... Tell that to all those which made it work.

Again, AC68080's good sales result reflects the priorities in the Amiga community.

Originally Posted by Promilus

Your argument with SSE2/AVX/AVX2 being related to how big game world can be is real BS.

Real BS comes from you when PS4 8GB's existance debunks your BS.

Up to 5.5GB allocated for PS4 game which exceeds
1. 32bit memory address's 4GB limit
2. 32bit pointer's 4GB memory range limit

Major feature for AMD Fusion PR marketing is 64bit pointer feature for the CPU and GCN without X86's infamous memory segmenetion model. Poke the bear enough and it comes out biting back.

Competent SIMD hardware helps with CPU's 3D dot product calculations and larger memory storage goes along with it.

Both Xbox Series X and PS5 has the following
1. 16GB of GDDR6-14000 memory.
2. Quad pipeline 256 bit AVX-2 hardware per CPU core.

Xbox Series X/S has 100GB memory address mapped to 100GB in NVME (Velocity Architecture).

XBO and PS4 has influenced the minimum system requirements for PC gaming.

Deal with it.

Originally Posted by Promilus

I just pointed out it SIMD has nothing to do with addressing and SIMD can be as wide as you want it. Also - SVE is pretty new to ARM and it is basically smarter AVX - it isn't limited to one implementation. You don't need new instructions and new libraries if someone implements wider than 512bit SVE. But you do if you wrote app for SSE2 then wanted to use AVX2 and in the end tried to implement on AVX512.

1. "It is basically smarter AVX" is BS when A64FX's instruction issue is reduce two with 512-bit SIMD processing. I prefer qual-pipeline 256-bit SIMD units on Zen 2/Zen 3 instead of AVX-512/A64FX monolithic 512bit SIMD unit i.e. very wide SIMD width is harder to populate when compared to MIMD programming model in GpGPUs.

Intel Larrabee has many crappy X86-64 cores (similar to Atom Bonnell microarchitecture) with 512bit SIMD support (AVX-512 was based on this design).

2. 256 bit AVX v1 is included with Jaguar CPUs in XBO/PS4 era game consoles since year 2013.

3. Again, offer ARM SVE alternative solution to the budget Xbox Series S APU (Near 1 TFLOPS FP32 CPU, RDNA 2's 4 TFLOPS FP32 compute and 5 TFLOPS hardware raytracing). Where's your shopping cart website!

4. ARM SVE's install base is tiny when compared to Intel AVX. NVIDIA is focused on it's CUDA instruction set instead.

5. ARM Linux is nearly useless for Linux Steam X86 games. Apple's ARM usage doesn't benefit the rest of the ARM industry just like Apple's PPC.

AVX-512 is shipped with Intel IceLake, Tigerlake, Skylake-X and Cascade Lake consumer products.

Intel Xe IGP is shipped with Tigerlake APU consumer products.

Again, offer ARM SVE alternative to the mentioned Intel and AMD SKUs in the same or similar consumer category. Where's your shopping cart website!

Originally Posted by Promilus

I did not say such a thing. I only said full 64bit architecture wasn't necessary at that time (or even now). And fyi 64bit cpus are in game consoles from a pretty long time. Both Xbox360 and PS3 had 64bit PowerPC, Playstation 2 had 64bit MIPS based CPU. But all of those were lacking in operational memory... but that wasn't a problem at that time. I'm pretty sure I wrote 64bit makes things easier but aren't required to make it possible. Nothing more, nothing less.

You have forgotten PS4 and XBO has more than 4GB of RAM since year 2013.

It's year 2020 with 16GB ram equiped PS5 and Xbox Series X.

Originally Posted by Promilus

Both yes and no, as I already proved with both 8 and 16bit designs which have 8bit ALU and 16bit physical address space or 16bit ALU and 24 bit address space respectively. Using the same mechanism you can have 32bit ALU and address space as big as you like.

I'm not going to support segmented memory model! Your PAE argument is flawed.

The facts since year 2013 is 8 GB PS4/XBO game consoles has heavily influenced gaming PC's minmium system requirements.

Originally Posted by Promilus

Well it did work with many applications (especially engineering and server) regardless of how crappy you claim it to be.

For PC based systems, PAE ended with year 2003 AMD64(X86-64).

[ Show youtube player ]
Dave N. Cutler speech on AMD x64 processor. PAE is crap.

Dave N. Cutler was one of key VMS designer for DEC Alpha 64bit CPUs. Microsoft assimulated VMS designs with Windows NT.

Originally Posted by Promilus

Yeah, that's from mouth of someone who claimed SSE2/AVX/AVX2 is a basis for big console worlds above 4GB of RAM ...
let's replay that, ok?

Facts:
1. SSE2 is a mandatory requirement with X64-64.

2. PS4 and XBO has more than 4GB of RAM since year 2013.

3. Up to 5.5GB allocated for PS4 game which exceeds 32bit memory address programming model.

4. PAE has been replaced by X64-64 since year 2003 on PC based systems.

Originally Posted by Promilus

or your information when I say HPS I mean HPS. That's tightly integrated to FPGA CPU core. That atom you mentioned only has FPGA communicating through PCIe with it but still has his own pcie controller, memory controller etc. etc. It's not integrated at all. It's only in the same package. If you mix those 2 you're clueless!

You shifted the goal post when you argued about Intel's shipping products to optimal design. You're the real clueless fool.

[turrican3]

Originally Posted by Higgy

The problem is more what to plug the 060 into!

Terriblefire/Stephen has said his 060 projects are now dead.
Better start saving for Warp/ACA.
Will treasure my 060 CD32. Going to be a rare card now.

You really have a 060 cd32 ???? how ???
Pictures please !!!!
You are kidding ??

[Chucky]

the TF360.. got one here aswell (actually I got 2. one rev0 and one rev2) not built yet.
(the rev2 that is. my rev0 is built and does boot) but will.. if just time allows.

give a thankyou to the communuty for it not to happen.

[pipper]

I don’t know what I could have done differently. I treated Stephen with respect and gratitude and waited patiently for my turn, like most others did, too.

[Tigerskunk]

@Promilus: see what you did there...

[grond]

How about we don't get the TF discussion mixed into this one? I'm sorry for having brought it up as yet another example of how Chucky's words and actions don't match.

[Jope]

This really has run its course in my opinion.

Some good discussion and some bad discussion has been going on, but the thread is a total mess and it's not worth my while to start splitting all of the topics out of it.

From now on:
Everyone please realize that this is not a zero sum game! There are no winners or losers here based on which CPU cards are available at any given time.

If we really want to identify a loser, it is everyone of us every time threads like this happen.

I'm asking everyone to think about the following:
- Please don't trigger other people by using snide remarks, sweeping statements or ad hominems
- Please try your best to not get triggered in case stuff like that slips
- Please do not make a non-comparison thread into a comparison thread.
-> If the discussion is about Motorola based accelerators, no-one asked for Vampire comments.
-> If the discussion is about the Vampire, no-one asked for Motorola comments.
- Actual comparison threads are interesting (such as the comparisons that happened here), but please really keep it civil and on topic. And make a new thread for it.