Was anyone else disappointed with the A1200?

[grond]

Wow, now you guys are really halucinating. C64 compatibility added into an A1000? The C64 was selling strong and would be doing so for another few years. The way those machines were built back then any change would break compatibility. The Amiga was different (but unfortunately treated like a C64 by programmers) and it was originally aimed at a completely different market. Adding C64-compatibility to an Amiga is like adding a towing hitch to a Ferrari because people might want to be able to use their old trailer with the Ferrari. Buy a C64 in addition to an Amiga if you need C64 software! C64 compatibility wouldn't help in making the Amiga anything else but a glorified games console. It's not like productivity software was a particularly strong point of the C64, is it? Commodore shouldn't have made ANY 8 bit computers at all but price-reduced C64s after they introduced the Amiga. That's all there is to that IMO.

[sokolovic]

Ahahah.
I love where this thread is going. Beginning by demanding that the stock A1200 run Doom to blaming the A1000 for not being C64 compatible natively.
I'll add that not any Amiga is able to make coffee which is a shame considering how cheap coffee maker machines where at that time.

Keep on going that way, I'm going to grab more pop corn.

[Gorf]

Coffee would be a good idea and go very well with the (video)toaster and some HAM!

Keep on going that way, I'm going to grab more pop corn.

So we need an integrated microwave as well?

[sokolovic]

Originally Posted by Gorf

Coffee would be a good idea and go very well with the (video)toaster and some HAM!

Excellent

Originally Posted by Gorf

So we need an integrated microwave as well?

Would be nice. I wonder if the X68000 had one.

[Promilus]

@grond

C64 compatibility wouldn't help in making the Amiga anything else but a glorified games console.

But it largely was anyway and we're talking about optional add-on ... C64 sales were great and even ill-fated C128 as well where that particular computer was so successful MOSTLY due to "GO64". Period.

@sokolovic

Beginning by demanding that the stock A1200 run Doom to blaming the A1000 for not being C64 compatible natively

I hardly demanded stock A1200 to run doom and didn't cast any blame on A1000 for not being C64 compatible. We're talking about things many Amiga users back then found disappointing and yes, initially lack of any way to run C64 games on Amiga was a bit disappointing (since any upgrade from C64 to Amiga = hardly any games and by that time most C64 users had quite the collection). After all A64 wasn't created with no users to address. And it wasn't the only one as there's also MagiC64 and Frodo. So what exactly is wrong with that? Care to explain?

[sokolovic]

Originally Posted by Promilus

@grond
But it largely was anyway and we're talking about optional add-on ... C64 sales were great and even ill-fated C128 as well where that particular computer was so successful MOSTLY due to "GO64". Period.

@sokolovic

I hardly demanded stock A1200 to run doom and didn't cast any blame on A1000 for not being C64 compatible. We're talking about things many Amiga users back then found disappointing and yes, initially lack of any way to run C64 games on Amiga was a bit disappointing (since any upgrade from C64 to Amiga = hardly any games and by that time most C64 users had quite the collection). After all A64 wasn't created with no users to address. And it wasn't the only one as there's also MagiC64 and Frodo. So what exactly is wrong with that? Care to explain?

Nothing personal of course. Just have the feeling that everyone is adding one demand over another to the Amiga trial.
Now this thread seems like the Complaints office of Amiga History, no matter if these complaints are unrealistic or contradictory.

[Gorf]

Originally Posted by grond

Adding C64-compatibility to an Amiga is like adding a towing hitch to a Ferrari because people might want to be able to use their old trailer with the Ferrari.

In some sense, yes.
But it would also be a nice development platform for C64 software and it would mitigate one of the biggest problems every new platform has:
no software at start.

Buy a C64 in addition to an Amiga if you need C64 software!

Many already had an C64 ... but the Amiga was not the natural successor. At least not more than the ST or a PC would be. Sure you would upgrade to a vastly superior platform, but you lose every pice of software you bought for the C64 and also almost every peripheral...

For many the A1000 was yet another incompatible computer by Commodore ... they had quite a history at that point :-/
That did not ensure trust in the new platform ...

"ok, 1984 they released the Plus/4, 85 the Amiga, lets see what they do in 86..."

Providing (optional) compatibility - at the very least for C64 BASIC programs in software and with an add-on module for the C64/VIC/PET would have shown the customers, that Commodore cares about them.

That would have been a better path than the ugly sidecar...

C64 compatibility wouldn't help in making the Amiga anything else but a glorified games console. It's not like productivity software was a particularly strong point of the C64, is it?

It's not like that did not happen anyways - sadly.
Commodore made initially some good decisions with Textcraft and Graphicraft, but did not follow up on this. There never was a "Cellcraft" ...

Later Commodore bundled GEOS with every C64 ... but sadly they did not make a deal with Berkeley Softworks to create something for the Amiga.
Instead GEOS got ported to the PC as GeoWorks and later to PDAs...

Commodore shouldn't have made ANY 8 bit computers at all but price-reduced C64s after they introduced the Amiga. That's all there is to that IMO.

Well - without the C128 Commodore would probably not have survived 1986.
It is a valid thought experiment, if a more compatible Amiga would have made the C128 obsolete and would have sold in the millions from the start.

[Promilus]

Now this thread seems like the Complaints office of Amiga History, no matter if these complaints are unrealistic or contradictory.

Oh... Well I did mean something like
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amiga_Sidecar
https://bigbookofamigahardware.com/b...ct.aspx?id=333
but with bare minimum hardware to let C64 apps running on A1000, 500, 2000. If crappy XT was ok for Amiga why great C64 wasn't? One might say "but that's internal competition, who would buy C64 if they can get much more powerful machine with low-cost add-on which let you play C64?" Well. Yes. But on the other hand "why buy slow and 8bit machine if you can get new 32bit one and still run old software if needed"? I'd say C64 compatibility board would be way more popular than those XT and AT emulators. What about A1200? Well it was the first cheap model which could actually run C64 full software emulation (barely) fast enough to be playable.

[grond]

Originally Posted by Gorf

Many already had an C64 ... but the Amiga was not the natural successor.

Exactly! That's why they kept selling C64s with great success and even into the 1990s.

ASure you would upgrade to a vastly superior platform, but you lose every pice of software you bought for the C64 and also almost every peripheral...

Speaking of peripherals: you'd have to provide interfaces for all of those with that add-on-C64. 5.25" fdd, expansion port etc. There is hardly anything the add-on could have saved in comparison to a normal C64. Perhaps the joystick ports. Other than that the Amiga wouldn't have been more than a power supply to the add-on. And all that to only play C64 games? A C64 next to the Amiga would have been the better choice for that.

Providing (optional) compatibility - at the very least for C64 BASIC programs in software and with an add-on module for the C64/VIC/PET would have shown the customers, that Commodore cares about them.

How valuable was the body of C64 software that was implemented in pure BASIC? Close to zero, I would guess.

Well - without the C128 Commodore would probably not have survived 1986.

Is that so? With all the money saved by not developing and producing 264s and not developing the C128development, they might have survived anyway.

It is a valid thought experiment, if a more compatible Amiga would have made the C128 obsolete and would have sold in the millions from the start.

It also is a valid thought experiment whether you would fall down from the edge of the Earth if you had wings...

[Thorham]

Originally Posted by grond

adding a towing hitch to a Ferrari

People actually do that

[gimbal]

I'm not into cars but even I find that sacrilege.

[Gorf]

Originally Posted by grond

Exactly! That's why they kept selling C64s with great success and even into the 1990s.

Only in some markets. The C64 was dead in the US much earlier.

Speaking of peripherals: you'd have to provide interfaces for all of those with that add-on-C64. 5.25" fdd, expansion port etc.

The 1541 just needs a cheap adapter.
Why the A1000 did not include Commodores famous IEC Bus for wich they offered a bunch of peripheral is another riddle.

No expansion port - the Amiga would emulate such things as a Freezer ..

With such an expansion the A1000 would be the ultimate development tool for the C64: stopp the C64 side, inspect RAM, take snapshots of the state, manipulate things, roll back if it fails and so on...

It also makes it much easier to develop games for both machines.

How valuable was the body of C64 software that was implemented in pure BASIC? Close to zero, I would guess.

More individual value:
all the hours people spent typing in listings, or little programs they invented themselves ...

The Amiga could be a little bit intimidating at first for someone, who came from the C64 and just learned to do a little bit of BASIC on that machine.

Is that so? With all the money saved by not developing and producing 264s and not developing the C128development, they might have survived anyway.

Not producing the 264s would helped most ... I guess they had to sell a lot of them at a loss in the end.

C128 development? How expensive is one Bil Herd?
OK OK, we was not alone, but the development costs of that machine are probably one of the lowest in computer history.
(that does not make it a good idea automatically)

It also is a valid thought experiment whether you would fall down from the edge of the Earth if you had wings...

I doubt it - in any case I could safely land on the back of the big turtle ...

[Promilus]

The 1541 just needs a cheap adapter (...) Why the A1000 did not include Commodores famous IEC Bus

IEC was implemented over CIA in C64. Amiga version of CIA can handle it as well as it's not protocol handled by hardware but rather CPU banging CIA registers.

With such an expansion the A1000 would be the ultimate development tool for the C64: stopp the C64 side, inspect RAM, take snapshots of the state, manipulate things, roll back if it fails and so on...

It also makes it much easier to develop games for both machines

Fully agree on that. It would make great dev platform for C64 while allowing to gradually move onto new Amiga hardware. So pretty good h/w for transition from 8 to 32bit.

that does not make it a good idea automatically

C128 and Plus/4 suffers mostly from same thing. Plus/4 had superb ROM mapping over C64 - more RAM available out of those 64KB. Also TED offered more on-screen colors. Big drawback was lack of sprites and obvious C64 incompatibility. Should TED offer C64 compatibility things would have been different. Same with C128. It was used mostly as C64. VDC was nearly useless. Z80 was nearly useless. So the biggest improvement was 1571 which did load up games faster but most of the time it was just GO64 (so no 2MHz and no more RAM).

[Gorf]

Originally Posted by Promilus

IEC was implemented over CIA in C64. Amiga version of CIA can handle it as well as it's not protocol handled by hardware but rather CPU banging CIA registers.

that's why you just need a cheep adapter I know.
I was thinking of the physical DIN-port and support in the OS for the 1541 (and higher) as well as printers, plotters, modems and whatnot.

Thinking more about that, maybe Commodore should have thrown in an additional 6510 on the A1000 motherboard as peripheral controller handling serial (sorry Paula), parallel and MIDI ... I mean, they even used one in the keyboard - these things were dirt cheap!
(All you would need then to gain full C64 compatibility, is a small add-on card with VIC-II and SID on it...)

Fully agree on that. It would make great dev platform for C64 while allowing to gradually move onto new Amiga hardware. So pretty good h/w for transition from 8 to 32bit.

C128 and Plus/4 suffers mostly from same thing. Plus/4 had superb ROM mapping over C64

yeah - the memory layout / ROM mapping on the C64 is terrible and makes it really hard to go beyond 64K via bank switching
That is why they came up with things like the REU.

It is not like Commodore would not have had a compatible CPU with integrated MMU since 1982:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOS_Technology_6509

[TEG]

Originally Posted by Promilus

You think of 6502 emulation as something trivial. It's not about computing performance but emulating logic behind CPU. The same can be said about 68k emulation. To create cycle accurate 68000 7MHz few MHz x86 is needed. Not because MC68000 is so powerful but because making it accurate takes many, many instructions. JIT doesn't care about it that's why it can run code very fast but code written for specific speed will always go bad. And many C64 games do not work correctly on anything else than ~1MHz 6510. And there's yet another part to consider - VICII, his timeslots and text mode for graphics (which many platform games did use essentially using character map as tileset - to conserve memory of course and improve speed). It's not like Amiga chipset does handle that accurately in hardware. It doesn't even have such text mode afaik.

And on top of that 6502 has unique ISA with small amount of registers . So you have to emulate 8bit CPU flags along with instruction intended operation result (like bit shifting, increment, decrement and so on) and all of that being as close to original speed as possible. It wouldn't matter if there was 64bit 7MHz RISC there... it would still have a hard time emulating 6502 accurately enough.

Some hardware would have to be created to support C64 compatibility mode on bare A1000/2000/500. One can only wonder what A1000 with C64 compatibility mode could accomplish.

I believe you from your first post about it. My sentence was bad formulated. Thanks for the new details

Originally Posted by Locutus

I suspect a C64-SoC-on-a-card would have been the way to go, do something smart to allow it to render into a pub screen using a analogue video overlay or some such.

Good idea but the output should have been absolutely integrated as an application, not a "GO 64" mode as with the C128.

Originally Posted by Locutus

It's essentially what Apple did with their Apple 2 compatibility cards for the NuBus Mac's, and those sold in reasonably respectable numbers.

If I remember well, another point was to be able to run 680x0 legacy applications in the iMac G3 (Power PC) through an automatic emulator of System 7 if I'm right.

Originally Posted by grond

Wow, now you guys are really halucinating. C64 compatibility added into an A1000? The C64 was selling strong and would be doing so for another few years. The way those machines were built back then any change would break compatibility. The Amiga was different (but unfortunately treated like a C64 by programmers) and it was originally aimed at a completely different market. Adding C64-compatibility to an Amiga is like adding a towing hitch to a Ferrari because people might want to be able to use their old trailer with the Ferrari.

If you buy a Ferrari you can directly sit in and go 250 Km/h. If you bought an Amiga in 1985 you did not have the special gasoline to run the engine.
Buyers were stuck a least one year I think.

Originally Posted by grond

Buy a C64 in addition to an Amiga if you need C64 software! C64 compatibility wouldn't help in making the Amiga anything else but a glorified games console. It's not like productivity software was a particularly strong point of the C64, is it? Commodore shouldn't have made ANY 8 bit computers at all but price-reduced C64s after they introduced the Amiga. That's all there is to that IMO.

C64 was in the place since long and it was logical to move to the new powerful and promising platform of your favourite brand. And Oh! It seems that some of these new 3.5" floppies are circulating under the mantle with a bunch of C64 games on each. Did you heard about that? Incredible!

From a 1985 standpoint nobody was knowing the future of computers (kind of obvious sentence but I mean it was still the beginning of personal computers, hard to look back in the rear-view mirror to anticipate what will the future be). This was still the 8 bits area and the best games were the C64 games, the rest was promises only. So you would have had directly, at least, from a 1985 point of view, an incredible software library from the start.

If you market it correctly you can even say "Look how I'm a powerful computer, I can run without a problem the C64 in a window". And "I'm Commodore, I believe in the future of my brand, you made the right choice."

[Gorf]

Originally Posted by TEG

Good idea but the output should have been absolutely integrated as an application, not a "GO 64" mode as with the C128.

Puh .. ok.
That makes things a little bit more complicated.
I was going through some scenarios in my head on my ride home:

What if that C64-device would work similar to the "A314" - beaming its output directly into the chipram of the Amiga?
We would need a portion of the ChipRAM that is off-limits for the 68K, the C64-add-on takes control over this in every second time-slot.
(that are the slots the 68K would usually get - the other ones are reserved for Angus. Angus would feed that output to Denise, if we point the bitplane pointers accordingly)
No, that is not the RAM access time of the C64 but the synchronized output of a modified VIC-II.
This chip would not create a video signal, but write its output to 4 bitplanes in the Amiga-ChipRAM...
On the Amiga-side this would look like a normal 4-BitPlane-LowRes Screen, which can be in front or behind and is even dragable.

That would be the "deluxe" version. Much easier would have been a cut down C64 on a Zorro-board and it own video-out.

From a 1985 standpoint nobody was knowing the future of computers (kind of obvious sentence but I mean it was still the beginning of personal computers, hard to look back in the rear-view mirror to anticipate what will the future be).

well - the point is: some people did.
At least they got a feeling, what it would be - some predictions are even very accurate.
Surely the original Amiga-Team got some things pretty right. They thought "multimedia" before the term existed. They felt, that a computer is not just for office or in a different setup for games, but for art, creativity, entertainment, fun ....
Bill Gates (hate him as I do) was also one of these people who just knew computer would be everywhere and do everything.
Steve Jobs saw the GUI at Xerox and just knew "that's it". And later he experiences the early internet and again he just saw the future. (he is not well known for that, but there is an old interview that proves that)

And of course Chuck Peddle - he also visualizes a world were computers would be every day tools for everybody in the 70s

[Bruce Abbott]

Originally Posted by Gorf

that's why you just need a cheep adapter I know.
I was thinking of the physical DIN-port and support in the OS for the 1541 (and higher) as well as printers, plotters, modems and whatnot.

Those of us who didn't have those C64 peripherals were not at all interested in that. The IEC bus was very slow, and not in any way 'industry standard'.

One of the attractions of the Amiga was that it did have 'industry standard' ports. Centronics printers and RS323 serial devices were ubiquitous since PCs and other platforms used them, whereas Commodore's IEC bus was proprietary so devices had to be specially made for it.

There's no end to the ports that could have been built into the A1000 to make it compatible with more stuff 'out of the box', but such feature creep just leads to greater expense, trickier ergonomics and customer confusion.

Thinking more about that, maybe Commodore should have thrown in an additional 6510 on the A1000 motherboard as peripheral controller handling serial (sorry Paula), parallel and MIDI ... I mean, they even used one in the keyboard - these things were dirt cheap!

Actually it was a 6500/1, which is a microcontroller with 6502 core. The 6510 itself might have been cheap, but the support circuitry for it wouldn't be.

No, Commodore should not have 'thrown in an additional 6510 on the A1000 motherboard'.

(All you would need then to gain full C64 compatibility, is a small add-on card with VIC-II and SID on it...)

Yeah right.

[oscar_ates]

Just saw on some forums Escom produced 60k A1200s in 1995 and could sell only 9000. So it was a kind of trying to resurrect the dead donkey you bought They did not even bother about cd32s that were seized by Philippines

[Gorf]

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

Those of us who didn't have those C64 peripherals were not at all interested in that. The IEC bus was very slow, and not in any way 'industry standard'.

41,600 bit/s or 5,200 bytes/s is really not that slow in 85 for a serial connection.

One of the attractions of the Amiga was that it did have 'industry standard' ports.

Did I say somewhere it should not have these ports? No, I did not ...

There's no end to the ports that could have been built into the A1000 to make it compatible with more stuff 'out of the box', ....

But anything else would not make sense in a commercial way!
But getting users to buy your equipment would!
Even if it would be mostly via some indirect buys:

If people would keep their old 1541 when they upgrade to an amiga and sell their C64 without, the next buyer is more likely to buy himself a new 1541...

Actually it was a 6500/1, which is a microcontroller with 6502 core. The 6510 itself might have been cheap, but the support circuitry for it wouldn't be.

I know - same same but different.
You knew exactly, what I was trying to say here ...

No, Commodore should not have 'thrown in an additional 6510 on the A1000 motherboard'.

You argued that point beautifully ...

[Gorf]

Originally Posted by oscar_ates

Just saw on some forums Escom produced 60k A1200s in 1995 and could sell only 9000. So it was a kind of trying to resurrect the dead donkey you bought They did not even bother about cd32s that were seized by Philippines

Reality is a bi***!