23 September 2017, 17:34 | #201 |
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Don't worry readonlycat, I totally believe you can single handedly pull off an arcade perfect port of outrun on the a500.
Curse sega for not granting you a license. |
24 September 2017, 12:12 | #202 |
AKA Mr. Rhythm Master/AIS
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To be fair, while the Amiga SHO graphics are derived from the ST rather than the arcade, ZZKJ and Saul did spruce them up a bit compared to the ST (plus the road display used the copper and got a few more colours onscreen that way...).
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26 September 2017, 06:34 | #203 | ||||||
Code Kitten
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Well, it looks like my post has attracted similar responses so I will gather them for simplicity.
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This can be measured easily using Tony's frame rate measuring system in UAE, feel free to post the results here. I will gladly swallow my hat and my pride if this reaches more than 20. The motion of opponents is indeed jerky, that much is visible on every SHO Amiga video out there, just look at that moment for example: [ Show youtube player ] When they are close to the players, they systematically jerk left and right haphazardly. And the controls do not compare to the arcade, even the mouse takes time to adjust rather than giving the precise response that No Second Prize offers for example. And I know, I finished the game! Quote:
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Sega does already sell licenses of their IPs to businesses which want to manufacture products related to them, Sonic figures, Comics, etc. They do not even seem to require large number of unit sales for these licenses to be issued. This is a bona fide section of their business, as long as their IP is properly respected (and in some cases, even when it is somewhat disgraceful such as with the poor AtGames MegaDrive consoles) and that they get a reasonable return on unit sales they take it. This is not unusual at all in the industry, SNK does the same (cf https://www.snk-corp.co.jp/license/ if you can grok Japanese since the US version is down at the moment). From my experience of the industry this is business as usual. Another point about Sega is that they also have been historically very friendly with home-brew development. Sonic Mania is literally the creation of a homebrew developer which was recruited by Sega to take care of the Sonic 2D games. A few years back they even agreed to allow a figurine maker to run a KickStarter to finance a run of MegaDrive related products, the KS failed but the facts are there : they had contractually agreed to it (provided he got the KS financed). And from what I can estimate the license fees were very reasonable. Maybe they will say no, but frankly I doubt it. The industry does licensing deals on all scales, from 1000 units runs to millions, as long as they get paid correspondingly they do not care and for small runs the fees are not that high. Quote:
There are plenty of games which prove that it is possible to do better than SHO on the Amiga: Lotus II, Prime Mover and a few others I forget. No need to have written a single line of assembler to verify that this is true. |
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26 September 2017, 06:41 | #204 | |
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When I say that SHO is objectively average I do not mean to disparage the coder. I know from personal experience that the industry does not exactly always provide proper working conditions. It was his first ever Amiga work and he probably had only a few months to get familiar with the ST code and port it. My perspective is purely that of the player: the Amiga is capable of a nearly arcade perfect Super Hang On and what we got was very far from it. Now who is to blame for that is a complex question to answer. Time constraints, inexperience, lack of original materials, potentially limited tools (there was no DevPac at the time), unrealistic managerial expectations, high stress, etc. probably all have played a role in the result. |
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26 September 2017, 07:38 | #205 |
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Yes, and players are usually quite clueless of what the Amiga is actually capable of and therefore tend to overestimate it's capabilities.
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26 September 2017, 10:02 | #206 | |
CaptainM68K-SPS France
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That's basically what a professional amiga coder told me. And on the opposite side, it's easier to port an amiga program to ST than the other way. |
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26 September 2017, 10:15 | #207 | ||
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26 September 2017, 10:37 | #208 | |
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26 September 2017, 14:54 | #209 |
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Has anyone looked at the specs of the SEGA arcade hardware that runs Outrun?
http://segaretro.org/Sega_OutRun_hardware It just outperforms an A500 so much that it is not realistic to expect a port that would be even near in terms of quality. The blitter is poor at bitmap scaling in realtime, the 68000 even worse. Lotus 2 was well done, but it should be remembered that most graphics were prescaled in memory. With 1 MB of memory you don't get very far. Even higher end classic Amigas, like 68060+AGA are still outperformed by the Sega arcade hardware in terms of graphics memory bandwidth and the way they have specialized hardware to draw road, and z-buffering stuff, separate CPUs to handle audio etc. |
26 September 2017, 15:01 | #210 |
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Indeed. We might be able to get to Lotus level gameplay/graphics style but that's very much inferior to what an authentic port of Outrun actually requires.
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26 September 2017, 15:54 | #211 |
Warhasneverbeensomuchfun
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The X68000 hardware can run circles around a vanilla ECS Amiga (hell, even an AGA one), yet its Super Hang-On port is far from arcade perfect.
And I played Super Hang-On on Amiga a lot and had never noticed the opponents jerking left and right, now that you mentioned it I'll never be able to enjoy the game the same way again :P |
26 September 2017, 17:21 | #212 | ||
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You see, I'd agree readily that to get the best results on the Amiga you have to take the architecture in account and that this means that your code handling graphics (Blitter/Copper) and sound will be very different. I'd even agree that you may need to change parts of the main loop in Amiga programs if necessary to better utilize the bus. However (and crucially), the stuff that makes a game a game is going to be just about 100% the same. It really doesn't matter all that much for game logic if you have an ST, Amiga or Megadrive. Especially so since apart from the custom chips these machines are functionally identical, barring some really rather minor differences (how much memory you have and how fast the CPU is). But these are fairly inconsequential and shouldn't change your base code all that much*. Furthermore, since the ST has so few special hardware tricks, converting the graphics and sound code should be reasonably doable. Which won't be true if you do a conversion the other way round. Edit: I just figured out you meant the case where you wish to use the Amiga possibilities fully. That would certainly entail much more rework (including on the art side), but the game logic should still be able to be reused just fine. IMHO that is actually the really important part of the code. Quote:
*) As an example, if you where to redo a game from a completely different architecture like say a Z80 based system, you'd probably end up with more or less the same game logic code - just using MC68000 instructions instead of Z80. |
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26 September 2017, 20:01 | #213 | |
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All those memories I have of having mates round to see who could get furthest? All those evenings marvelling at the graphics that were really, really good but actually crap? What a waste of my time that was. Wait. Was the sound any good though? Can I at least have good memories of the thumping soundtrack and the deep throaty roar of the engine, until the whine of the turbo boost cycled ever upwards raising excitement to unbearable levels? Can I please have that one? |
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26 September 2017, 21:37 | #214 | ||||||
CaptainM68K-SPS France
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The Amiga allows a better AI to be used and graphics with more colors, faster, and at 50 fps. Quote:
or otherwise, the ST will not cope. Quote:
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In his games, he was replacing the Amiga hardware routines by ST soft routines. Quote:
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26 September 2017, 21:59 | #215 | |
Going nowhere
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If a game was written on the ST first, its MUCH easier to convert to Amiga than it is to write on Amiga first and then port to the ST, this isn't even a discussion worth having. Secondly, absolutely NO-ONE is going to code better AI routines for Amiga, when the existing ST AI routines will do the job. You also overestimate how complicated some of these AI routines are in some games, most simply either follow preset patterns, or simply seek toward the hero ship, there is certainly few games with truly decent AI, and those that do, are generally not fast action games. As for worrying about the ST slowing down, pretty sure with the exception of Thalion, most programmers didn't give a shit if their games ran in a frame and were not perfectly smooth on the ST, because people were happy to buy what was on offer. It was only when the Amiga sales overtook the ST that software companies developed first for Amiga and realised that shovelware excuses wouldn't work anymore, and it got to the stage where cutting down some of the Amiga versions to fit on the ST were a step too much, hence why the ST was dropped. |
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26 September 2017, 22:10 | #216 | |
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Personally I feel the same way and agree with everything you've said. Cracking game on the Amiga when compared to what was around at the time (besides the original arcade obviously but no home computer / console could match that) Definitely had fun playing this and at the end of the day that's what counts... |
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26 September 2017, 22:18 | #217 | |
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Actually, even a port with the same quality and playability of the PC-Engine one would do the trick, with better colors and soundtrack, of course ^^ Last edited by saimon69; 26 September 2017 at 22:19. Reason: punctualization |
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26 September 2017, 22:21 | #218 |
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One can do the same as in Unreal dragon level, use the copper to double the horizontal lines. It will be a bit blocky but will help improve performances.
Kamelito |
26 September 2017, 22:26 | #219 |
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27 September 2017, 00:09 | #220 | |
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Trying to piss higher than your head is always a bad idea. There's plenty of adequate and great Out Run ports that an Amiga port could be based in. Namely, the Megadrive and the PC-Engine versions, are the best reference, keeping the essence and playing really good! PC-Engine port is particularly great. The compromise being done for that one seems to be number of objects, but it still plays very good and I wouldn't mind seeing less objects on the sides of the road as long as playability and speed are kept! The proof is in the pudding as they say anyway, and any talk in this thread is nothing more than speculation and time-wasting. If anybody in here thinks they c an do it, they should do it, and stop posting about it. |
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