Dungeon Master Custom Dungeons

[Marcuz]

Originally Posted by Don_Adan

Seems you don't played meynaf's hard map.

Neither the easier ones: I don't like Dungeon Master gameplay, but yes I like to pen large maps on paper

[Thorham]

Originally Posted by Don_Adan

Due my Amiga browser bet with Phil, I started to finish hard dungeon.

What exactly is that bet about (just curious)?

Originally Posted by Don_Adan

2. Add better/more item infos.

Definitively. Always amazed me that they didn't put this in the original game.

Originally Posted by Don_Adan

4. Add enemy infos with names, max HP, extra things: like poison, no matterial etc.

For monsters, I assume? Would be nice, and reminds me of Final Fantasy 8's 'Scan' spell.

Originally Posted by Don_Adan

5. Change place to show hitted enemy value at the down of screen.
6. Show hit values for shooting weapon, closing door, magic usage etc.

Also good additions.

Originally Posted by Don_Adan

8. Add spell config menu, assigned spells can be released by 0-9 keys.

That would change the mechanics of the game. Better would be to use the keyboard to enter the runes. Would work nicely with a WASD style layout. Use QWEASD keys for movement, and use op[]\+ENTER for entering spells.

Another idea would be to allow attacking with the keyboard as well, would be great if the mouse was only needed to pick up things and click on buttons, etc.

Originally Posted by Don_Adan

10. Load game from disk menu, not only via restart.

Absolutely.

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by Thorham

What exactly is that bet about (just curious)?

He pretended he could finish my hard dungeon, even that it was easy. ROFL.
Sometimes he bugs me asking me to write an Amiga web browser, which i clearly don't want to do.
So this bet (if he finishes the dungeon, i write a browser) was the best way to make him STFU.

Originally Posted by Thorham

Definitively. Always amazed me that they didn't put this in the original game.

Where the heck to put that ? And what to write ?

Originally Posted by Thorham

For monsters, I assume? Would be nice, and reminds me of Final Fantasy 8's 'Scan' spell.

CSB has special scroll to show enemy info. Also Hint Oracle gives monster informations.

Originally Posted by Thorham

Also good additions.

5. Would be a real flood and slow down the game due to text scrolling.
6. No time to read all that, same as 5.
A much better idea is a spell showing actual monster HP.

Originally Posted by Thorham

That would change the mechanics of the game. Better would be to use the keyboard to enter the runes. Would work nicely with a WASD style layout. Use QWEASD keys for movement, and use op[]\+ENTER for entering spells.

Another idea would be to allow attacking with the keyboard as well, would be great if the mouse was only needed to pick up things and click on buttons, etc.

Don't you think the game is arcade-like enough ?

Originally Posted by Thorham

Absolutely.

Do i wish to make stupid save-reload based strategies easier ?

Anyway I plan using the 4th disk menu button for calling the utility disk, and there cannot be 5.


Me explaining why i don't want a feature or another, will do no good i'm afraid : you have to discover by yourselves the problems some feature requests would cause. So please go to dmweb.free.fr and grab the relevant infos from there (if you don't have them already) - then do a mock-up with your fave paint program (from grabbed DM screen).
If no gfx is involved, a more detailed explanation would help, huh ?


More important changes for me are :
- add automap support (even though it doesn't integrate very well)
- get rid of that random leveling system (as we discussed earlier)
- final version of nightmare dungeon

And this is what you will have to test in next release ;-)

[Thorham]

Originally Posted by meynaf

He pretended he could finish my hard dungeon, even that it was easy. ROFL.

Yeah, I wanna see that

Originally Posted by meynaf

Sometimes he bugs me asking me to write an Amiga web browser, which i clearly don't want to do.

Really? Can't he do it himself?

Originally Posted by meynaf

So this bet (if he finishes the dungeon, i write a browser) was the best way to make him STFU.

You better hope he doesn't finish it then

Originally Posted by meynaf

Where the heck to put that ? And what to write ?

A different layout, or a simple bitmap overlay would do quite nicely.

Originally Posted by meynaf

CSB has special scroll to show enemy info. Also Hint Oracle gives monster informations.

A scroll, eh? Sounds good. Any way to get it into DM?

Originally Posted by meynaf

5. Would be a real flood and slow down the game due to text scrolling.

The values are already shown, but they don't stay on screen long enough. Would be nice if they stayed for at least half a second so you can read them.

Originally Posted by meynaf

A much better idea is a spell showing actual monster HP.

Or a simple health bar that hovers over the monster.

Originally Posted by meynaf

Don't you think the game is arcade-like enough ?

I don't think the game is arcade at all In my opinion arcade games are fast an short action games, which DM is not. Actually, the whole pace of DM could be increased if it were up to me.

Originally Posted by meynaf

Do i wish to make stupid save-reload based strategies easier ?

Good point.

Originally Posted by meynaf

then do a mock-up with your fave paint program (from grabbed DM screen).

You can change the whole thing?

Originally Posted by meynaf

If no gfx is involved, a more detailed explanation would help, huh ?

Sure.

Originally Posted by meynaf

- add automap support (even though it doesn't integrate very well)

Perhaps another screen can be used?

Originally Posted by meynaf

And this is what you will have to test in next release ;-)

Sounds good.

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by Thorham

Yeah, I wanna see that

He's been playing for one month now (!) and has just gone further than other players.

Originally Posted by Thorham

Really? Can't he do it himself?

I will ask him.

Originally Posted by Thorham

You better hope he doesn't finish it then

I don't "hope". I "know".

Originally Posted by Thorham

A different layout, or a simple bitmap overlay would do quite nicely.

Mock-up please.

Originally Posted by Thorham

A scroll, eh? Sounds good. Any way to get it into DM?

Yes. As a matter of fact, it's already there in the release you have. You just have to find this scroll and understand its purpose

Originally Posted by Thorham

The values are already shown, but they don't stay on screen long enough. Would be nice if they stayed for at least half a second so you can read them.

I'll have a look at that when i rewrite this part.

Originally Posted by Thorham

Or a simple health bar that hovers over the monster.

Strangely enough, i prefer the spell.

Originally Posted by Thorham

I don't think the game is arcade at all In my opinion arcade games are fast an short action games, which DM is not. Actually, the whole pace of DM could be increased if it were up to me.

Increase the pace ? Oh noes
Well, if you like quick fights, play Captive my friend.

Originally Posted by Thorham

You can change the whole thing?

There are things i can change, and things i can't. This is why i want to know what it must look like, before trying anything. Hence the mock-up idea.

Originally Posted by Thorham

Perhaps another screen can be used?

This is how i made it (yes it's done) ; another screen with a keypress to call it. Not well integrated, as i said.

[Don_Adan]

Small infos about my progress, all quests (Butchery and Long But Fast too) from snakes level are started, some quests are finished. All visible knights (in Butchery and Dead Road) are killed. No visible enemies to kill. I found Corbomite, but I don't know where I can use this. Seems that this map has ~30 levels. I told you Phil, your only chances are your puzzle, not easy enemies to kill.Time to learn how write good Amiga browser

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by Don_Adan

Small infos about my progress, all quests (Butchery and Long But Fast too) from snakes level are started, some quests are finished. All visible knights (in Butchery and Dead Road) are killed. No visible enemies to kill. I found Corbomite, but I don't know where I can use this. Seems that this map has ~30 levels. I told you Phil, your only chances are your puzzle, not easy enemies to kill.Time to learn how write good Amiga browser

Of course, by save-reload-reload-reload (etc) technique, virtually no monster can resist.

Perhaps my only chances are my puzzles, but you will see that they are GOOD chances.

Btw. i suspect you may be cheating in some way. Monsters shouldn't have been that easy.

[Thorham]

Originally Posted by meynaf

He's been playing for one month now (!) and has just gone further than other players.

He probably doesn't play for hours every day.

Originally Posted by meynaf

I don't "hope". I "know".

We'll see

Originally Posted by meynaf

Mock-up please.

Item infos can be placed in the same spot they're now, just extended. All that needs to be added is armor ratio or weapon strength, number of charges on charged items and resistances on armor.

Originally Posted by meynaf

I'll have a look at that when i rewrite this part.

Actually, after checking, the current speed isn't so bad

Originally Posted by meynaf

Strangely enough, i prefer the spell.

Good enough. Cast spell, see hit points for a few seconds.

Originally Posted by meynaf

Increase the pace ? Oh noes
Well, if you like quick fights, play Captive my friend.

I tried, but the random maps suck. Those maps are the sole reason I don't like Captive

Originally Posted by meynaf

There are things i can change, and things i can't. This is why i want to know what it must look like, before trying anything. Hence the mock-up idea.

Perhaps it's an idea to stick to the status area of the inventory screen and see how much you can do with that, because it's probably the easiest.

Originally Posted by meynaf

This is how i made it (yes it's done) ; another screen with a keypress to call it. Not well integrated, as i said.

If this works properly, then it's all good.

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by Thorham

He probably doesn't play for hours every day.

I wouldn't bet on this

Originally Posted by Thorham

We'll see

Previously you were the best player in there. Wanna defend your rank ?

Originally Posted by Thorham

Item infos can be placed in the same spot they're now, just extended. All that needs to be added is armor ratio or weapon strength, number of charges on charged items and resistances on armor.

No room for all that i'm afraid. Please take your fave paint program and add them to a screen grab, just to see.

Originally Posted by Thorham

Perhaps it's an idea to stick to the status area of the inventory screen and see how much you can do with that, because it's probably the easiest.

There is little room in here. For anyone suggesting a new feature, doing a mockup before submitting to me is a good idea.

Originally Posted by Thorham

If this works properly, then it's all good.

It does (at least for me).

[Don_Adan]

Originally Posted by meynaf

Of course, by save-reload-reload-reload (etc) technique, virtually no monster can resist.

Perhaps my only chances are my puzzles, but you will see that they are GOOD chances.

Btw. i suspect you may be cheating in some way. Monsters shouldn't have been that easy.

Cheating is not necessary to killing your knights, only good tactics.
Yes, puzzles are good, map is good, perhaps the best from all DM maps, but this is only question of time to solving your puzzles
Next report, passed Vitality tests, passed Wizard test, cleared Hall of Champions, started Corbum quest, killed Blue Dream dragon, cleaned Fireballs and Poisons quests.

BTW. Scroll name is one of the most stupid thing in this game, without enemy hit, you can't see enemy name.

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by Don_Adan

Cheating is not necessary to killing your knights, only good tactics.
Yes, puzzles are good, map is good, perhaps the best from all DM maps, but this is only question of time to solving your puzzles
Next report, passed Vitality tests, passed Wizard test, cleared Hall of Champions, started Corbum quest, killed Blue Dream dragon, cleaned Fireballs and Poisons quests.

You're too self-confident.

Originally Posted by Don_Adan

BTW. Scroll name is one of the most stupid thing in this game, without enemy hit, you can't see enemy name.

Of course this is wrong. Monster must be in front of you, that's all.

[Don_Adan]

Originally Posted by meynaf

No room for all that i'm afraid. Please take your fave paint program and add them to a screen grab, just to see.

Sorry Phil, but you are wrong. 5 full lines is available to use for more infos.
Here are examples IFF's.
Then adding f.e.:
Damage 49 (16/48/60)
for Axe is very easy or
Armor 160/4
for Dragon Plate
Also number of charges is very easy to add.

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by Don_Adan

Sorry Phil, but you are wrong. 5 full lines is available to use for more infos.
Here are examples IFF's.
Then adding f.e.:
Damage 49 (16/48/60)
for Axe is very easy or
Armor 160/4
for Dragon Plate
Also number of charges is very easy to add.

You forgot informations such as cursed (poisoned, broken, burnt out...). They sometimes take more room than what you'd think.

EDIT: In addition, i do not know the exact meaning of the values in the weapon descriptor, so until i'll have this info, i can add nothing at all as information.

[Don_Adan]

Originally Posted by meynaf

You forgot informations such as cursed (poisoned, broken, burnt out...). They sometimes take more room than what you'd think.

EDIT: In addition, i do not know the exact meaning of the values in the weapon descriptor, so until i'll have this info, i can add nothing at all as information.

Infos like cursed, burn out are displayed in different place (one extra line is used), but even if one line is necessary for other infos, then 4 full lines are still available. For weapon descriptor you can take values f.e. for Dragon Plate and compare with values available on the dmweb, later you will be know where are stored weapon values.
BTW. I finished Cursed Island quest, received Blue Gem, later I go to Blue Dream (Nightmare ?) quest, this is perhaps main game quest, only puzzles and puzzles, no enemies to kill for now, I reached Cave place and go to Door puzzles.

[Don_Adan]

Latest news: Blue Dream quest stopped on "My kingdom for a stick" puzzle/question.
Go to Sacrfice puzzle, golems killed via Punch, passed Extermination Center (4 dragons exterminated via Poison Clouds), found Thorham bones (see attached screen, if you want).

[Thorham]

Finally got the reply out

Originally Posted by meynaf

I wouldn't bet on this

Hmm, maybe

Originally Posted by meynaf

Previously you were the best player in there. Wanna defend your rank ?

I could. Any new versions available?

Originally Posted by meynaf

No room for all that i'm afraid. Please take your fave paint program and add them to a screen grab, just to see.

I mean the status part of the inventory where you view champion stats and item weight, see here: DM_Mockups.zip As you can see there's plenty of room there, much more than you need for any of the items in the game. The example looks cramped because I tried to squeeze as much as possible in there. Can be made to look better with icons or abbreviating words.

Originally Posted by meynaf

There is little room in here. For anyone suggesting a new feature, doing a mockup before submitting to me is a good idea.

Agreed, but after item infos, what useful feature can be added there? Exp to next level for each class?

Originally Posted by meynaf

It does (at least for me).

Can't wait to see that.

Originally Posted by Don_Adan

found Thorham bones (see attached screen, if you want).

Oh no

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by Don_Adan

Infos like cursed, burn out are displayed in different place (one extra line is used), but even if one line is necessary for other infos, then 4 full lines are still available. For weapon descriptor you can take values f.e. for Dragon Plate and compare with values available on the dmweb, later you will be know where are stored weapon values.

Seems to be just too easy. I think i will give you the source code of the routine that shows object informations, so you do it yourself .

Originally Posted by Don_Adan

BTW. I finished Cursed Island quest, received Blue Gem, later I go to Blue Dream (Nightmare ?) quest, this is perhaps main game quest, only puzzles and puzzles, no enemies to kill for now, I reached Cave place and go to Door puzzles.

You like to brag here don't you ?

Originally Posted by Don_Adan

Latest news: Blue Dream quest stopped on "My kingdom for a stick" puzzle/question.
Go to Sacrfice puzzle, golems killed via Punch, passed Extermination Center (4 dragons exterminated via Poison Clouds), found Thorham bones (see attached screen, if you want).

Anyway, Lord Chaos called me on the phone and said that the grizzly called Don Adan would certainly fail at the puzzle called "world of illusions". So I don't have to worry, it's just a matter of time.

Remember, YOUR bones will end up in the dungeon as well.

Originally Posted by Thorham

Finally got the reply out

It took enough time

Originally Posted by Thorham

I could. Any new versions available?

Actual code isn't ready for a release. But i guess you could use the same version our friend Don Adan has. This version includes experimental automapper.

Originally Posted by Thorham

I mean the status part of the inventory where you view champion stats and item weight, see here: Attachment 32817 As you can see there's plenty of room there, much more than you need for any of the items in the game. The example looks cramped because I tried to squeeze as much as possible in there. Can be made to look better with icons or abbreviating words.

A little bit crowded in here isn't it ?

Originally Posted by Thorham

Agreed, but after item infos, what useful feature can be added there? Exp to next level for each class?

Seems we had a misunderstanding. By "little", i mean "not enough for fitting anything"...

Originally Posted by Thorham

Can't wait to see that.

That's doable. You can get something there :
http://meynaf.free.fr/tmp/dm.lzx
IIRC it's the exact same thing Don Adan has : code with automapper and latest (final) version of hard dungeon.

[Thorham]

Originally Posted by meynaf

A little bit crowded in here isn't it ?

Sure is, but it's only to show how much can be fitted in that space, and that's way more than needed for item infos.

Originally Posted by meynaf

Seems we had a misunderstanding. By "little", i mean "not enough for fitting anything"...

Wait, are you talking about the area that shows food/stats/chest? Plenty of room there. You could even add an auto map item and show the map in that area.

Originally Posted by meynaf

That's doable. You can get something there :
http://meynaf.free.fr/tmp/dm.lzx
IIRC it's the exact same thing Don Adan has : code with automapper and latest (final) version of hard dungeon.

Great Downloading it now.

At long last the dungeon's final version

[Thorham]

Just checked the new version, and that automap is great. Wouldv'e been nice if you said that it's activated using the keypad's asterisk key, though

Great addition, and I don't think it needs any changing at all. The combination of neat graphics and good fading effect makes it look like a proper feature, rather than something that was just slapped on. Good job

Now all we need is WASD for ergonomic reasons. Really, WASD is easier on the hand than keypad, except for left handed people. A command line option to specify key codes for movement and map would be a welcome addition, or is it hard to do?

UPDATE:

Just started a serious game with reincarnated Halk. Got him some quick levels in all classes in the safe area, and took a break. More to come.

[Thorham]

Solved a puzzle in the first safe area, which got me some more equipment and food. After that it took me way to many tries to get out of the hall of champions, until I realized I keept going the wrong way Jumped down a hole to end up on the flying snake level where I found the rope and another safe area (did this twice now and I've never noticed this safe area, new?).

Trained some wizard levels here to clear up some room in the inventory (by eating food) and to not let the water bottle go to waste (wanted the flask badly).

Haven't played any further yet. More to come later.

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by Thorham

Sure is, but it's only to show how much can be fitted in that space, and that's way more than needed for item infos.

And some infos are still missing, like "cursed", "burnt out", etc. No room in your grab for these.

Originally Posted by Thorham

Wait, are you talking about the area that shows food/stats/chest? Plenty of room there. You could even add an auto map item and show the map in that area.

Yes I'm talking about this area. Object info does not fit at all when you have several other things to say about the object.
About the map, CSB's magic map already appears here, and only shows a 7x7 area.

Originally Posted by Thorham

Great Downloading it now.

At long last the dungeon's final version

Well, final version or not, as it's about an area that's very far in the game, i don't think it makes much difference

Originally Posted by Thorham

Just checked the new version, and that automap is great. Wouldv'e been nice if you said that it's activated using the keypad's asterisk key, though

Yeah, sorry, i should have told it.

Originally Posted by Thorham

Great addition, and I don't think it needs any changing at all. The combination of neat graphics and good fading effect makes it look like a proper feature, rather than something that was just slapped on. Good job

Graphics - and a big part of the code - are the same as what's used for CSB's magic map. So it's not such the big job it looks.

Originally Posted by Thorham

Now all we need is WASD for ergonomic reasons. Really, WASD is easier on the hand than keypad, except for left handed people. A command line option to specify key codes for movement and map would be a welcome addition, or is it hard to do?

Ok, i will add that to the todo list.

Originally Posted by Thorham

UPDATE:

Just started a serious game with reincarnated Halk. Got him some quick levels in all classes in the safe area, and took a break. More to come.

There is a safe area ? I wonder where

Originally Posted by Thorham

Solved a puzzle in the first safe area, which got me some more equipment and food. After that it took me way to many tries to get out of the hall of champions, until I realized I keept going the wrong way Jumped down a hole to end up on the flying snake level where I found the rope and another safe area (did this twice now and I've never noticed this safe area, new?).

The resting room is relatively new indeed. Not from this release, but a few ones before.

Originally Posted by Thorham

Trained some wizard levels here to clear up some room in the inventory (by eating food) and to not let the water bottle go to waste (wanted the flask badly).

Haven't played any further yet. More to come later.

Seems to be a good start you're making.

[Thorham]

Originally Posted by meynaf

And some infos are still missing, like "cursed", "burnt out", etc. No room in your grab for these.

Of course they're missing, and for two reasons:

1. My grab only shows that a lot can be fitted in this space.
2. Item infos are context sensitive.

Another thing: How many of those item status components, such as cursed, are there in the game? Tell me, and I'll do another mock up.

Originally Posted by meynaf

Yes I'm talking about this area. Object info does not fit at all when you have several other things to say about the object.

I'd like to try that (see above), especially since my mock up is quite quick and dirty, and I can do better than that. I also believe that everything can be fitted

Originally Posted by meynaf

About the map, CSB's magic map already appears here, and only shows a 7x7 area.

Yeah, that's small. Your solution is way better and easier to use.

Originally Posted by meynaf

Graphics - and a big part of the code - are the same as what's used for CSB's magic map. So it's not such the big job it looks.

Still a job well done.

Originally Posted by meynaf

Ok, i will add that to the todo list.

Thanks, my hand will be very happy

Originally Posted by meynaf

Seems to be a good start you're making.

Indeed. This time I'm going to try not to miss anything.

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by Thorham

Of course they're missing, and for two reasons:

1. My grab only shows that a lot can be fitted in this space.
2. Item infos are context sensitive.

Another thing: How many of those item status components, such as cursed, are there in the game? Tell me, and I'll do another mock up.

Longest descriptive i can think of is : "(broken, cursed, poisoned and burnt out)".

Originally Posted by Thorham

I'd like to try that (see above), especially since my mock up is quite quick and dirty, and I can do better than that. I also believe that everything can be fitted

Can be fitted perhaps, but possibly with very tight and ugly result, eh ?

Originally Posted by Thorham

Yeah, that's small. Your solution is way better and easier to use.

Both are there anyway ; magic maps still work, and should you find one, you will see that the spells that allow it to show more things, also work for the automap (so it's far from making the magic map useless, which i feared when i did that automap).

Originally Posted by Thorham

Still a job well done.

Apparently
I'm happy it satisfies you. I guess an automap in DM was dramatically missing ; in my young days i didn't care about making paper maps, but now...

Originally Posted by Thorham

Thanks, my hand will be very happy

You're left-handed ?

Originally Posted by Thorham

Indeed. This time I'm going to try not to miss anything.

Heheh

[Don_Adan]

Originally Posted by meynaf

Seems to be just too easy. I think i will give you the source code of the routine that shows object informations, so you do it yourself .

Ok. Send to me source with english or polish comments, and I will add item infos.

Originally Posted by meynaf

You like to brag here don't you ?

Yes, my friend. In my test attempt Linflas joined to party (one puzzle needs two heroes, but I must check other option too) and my grizzly passed None Shall Pass puzzle.

Originally Posted by meynaf

Anyway, Lord Chaos called me on the phone and said that the grizzly called Don Adan would certainly fail at the puzzle called "world of illusions". So I don't have to worry, it's just a matter of time.

You are dreaming, my friend.
He/You was wrong in some cases. I passed Death Road, Butchery and 4 Dragons Puzzle, if I remember I can't pass these parts. But of course can exit part too hard for me to pass.

Originally Posted by meynaf

Remember, YOUR bones will end up in the dungeon as well.

No, due nothing can kill my Grizzly, then no bones available. He is ready to Hall of Fame

[Lord Riton]

@Don_Adan: What's the point on cheating ? Just to brag you won the game ?
You are cheating yourself like that..

[Don_Adan]

Originally Posted by Lord Riton

@Don_Adan: What's the point on cheating ?

Some infos about my progress.

Originally Posted by Lord Riton

Just to brag you won the game ?

No. Due this is very large map and I can miss something and can't finish this game.

Originally Posted by Lord Riton

You are cheating yourself like that..

This is possible.

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by Don_Adan

Ok. Send to me source with english or polish comments, and I will add item infos.

Ok. Recall this to me after our bet.

Originally Posted by Don_Adan

Yes, my friend. In my test attempt Linflas joined to party (one puzzle needs two heroes, but I must check other option too) and my grizzly passed None Shall Pass puzzle.

This is a dragon's agony. Destroys lots of things, but dies at the end.

Originally Posted by Don_Adan

You are dreaming, my friend.

No i am not. You're already blocked.

Originally Posted by Don_Adan

He/You was wrong in some cases. I passed Death Road, Butchery and 4 Dragons Puzzle, if I remember I can't pass these parts. But of course can exit part too hard for me to pass.

Yeah, sure. You can pass any monster but you cheated with save games to pass them.
Saving after each successful blow that makes "enough damage" and after every missed enemy blow, isn't "passing", it's "cheating".
No wonder why you asked me to add the "load" option in disk opts !

Originally Posted by Don_Adan

No, due nothing can kill my Grizzly, then no bones available. He is ready to Hall of Fame

He can commit hara-kiri. He is ready for Hall of Fame, which is Hall of Bones in this dungeon.

Originally Posted by Don_Adan

Some infos about my progress.

No this is just bragging, as you sent these infos to me by mail already.

Originally Posted by Don_Adan

No. Due this is very large map and I can miss something and can't finish this game.

This is exactly what will happen. Now you're starting to accept it.

[Thorham]

Originally Posted by meynaf

Longest descriptive i can think of is : "(broken, cursed, poisoned and burnt out)".

At least burnt out is restricted to torches

Originally Posted by meynaf

Can be fitted perhaps, but possibly with very tight and ugly result, eh ?

I was wrong. It's much harder to fit than I thought Without small icons for the cursed, poisoned, etc stuff it's not going to happen, because of the different actions the weapons have. There can be three actions, and each of these has different attack power and/or charges assigned to them, and perhaps other things. I'll give it one more shot, though.

Is it possible to have multiple pages for this? The idea would be to click the eye icon with an item and then have the first page appear. Click again to show the second page. If it's possible, then the problem would be solved.

Originally Posted by meynaf

Both are there anyway ; magic maps still work, and should you find one, you will see that the spells that allow it to show more things, also work for the automap (so it's far from making the magic map useless, which i feared when i did that automap).

Cool, I'll look out for that map.

Originally Posted by meynaf

Apparently
I'm happy it satisfies you. I guess an automap in DM was dramatically missing ; in my young days i didn't care about making paper maps, but now...

Yeah, as easy as it is to make a paper map in this case (for the most part), an auto map is much handier.

Originally Posted by meynaf

You're left-handed ?

Nope, right handed here. For left handed people the keypad is fine, because they usually have the mouse at the left side of the keyboard. For right handed people however, WASD is much more conveniently placed than the keypad.

Actually, a lot of peecee games from the last ten years use WASD instead of cursor keys by default, and games that don't, usually allow redefining keys anyway. Amiga games could use this.

Anyway, I need to start playing more often. I've been playing to much Oblivion and Espgaluda lately

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by Thorham

At least burnt out is restricted to torches

But torches can be used as ordinary weapons too.

Originally Posted by Thorham

I was wrong. It's much harder to fit than I thought Without small icons for the cursed, poisoned, etc stuff it's not going to happen, because of the different actions the weapons have. There can be three actions, and each of these has different attack power and/or charges assigned to them, and perhaps other things. I'll give it one more shot, though.

It sure is already difficult to fit all this.

And another big problem is that many objects have properties that are hardwired in the code. Even though i move these in the object descriptor when i find some - which triggers graphics.dat incompatibilities -, i don't really know how many are still hidden.
For example, diamond edge has extra ability to pierce armor.
Or, elven boots give a few percent bonus in maximum load.

Things are even worse when several weapon abilities are used simultaneously : e.g. for thrown weapons, damage also depends on weight.
So a good but light weapon isn't necessarily better than a heavy one.

Add to all this the fact that weapons have different options that reveal during the game, which makes some of them not so useful for beginners (e.g. hardcleave) and you will maybe see that giving weapon values not only can't replace player experience, but also can be misleading. DM rules are more complex than they look ; it's not about simple "damage value" like in many other games.

Originally Posted by Thorham

Is it possible to have multiple pages for this? The idea would be to click the eye icon with an item and then have the first page appear. Click again to show the second page. If it's possible, then the problem would be solved.

You can't really do that, as objects are shown while the game is still running, that is, in real time. Not to mention it would make the interactivity a lot different, requiring two clicks instead of one (which isn't a single click, but a held one).

Originally Posted by Thorham

Cool, I'll look out for that map.

May be quite difficult to find in the nightmare dungeon...
But if you get it, you'll have an edge over our friend Don Adan here, who didn't find it.

Originally Posted by Thorham

Yeah, as easy as it is to make a paper map in this case (for the most part), an auto map is much handier.

I know. It makes some puzzles a lot easier, but nevertheless is a good option even to me.

Originally Posted by Thorham

Nope, right handed here. For left handed people the keypad is fine, because they usually have the mouse at the left side of the keyboard. For right handed people however, WASD is much more conveniently placed than the keypad.

Actually, a lot of peecee games from the last ten years use WASD instead of cursor keys by default, and games that don't, usually allow redefining keys anyway. Amiga games could use this.

I don't see the use for myself, but it shouldn't be too hard to add - once i've sorted out that complicated input code.

Originally Posted by Thorham

Anyway, I need to start playing more often. I've been playing to much Oblivion and Espgaluda lately

[Thorham]

Originally Posted by meynaf

But torches can be used as ordinary weapons too.

Indeed, I forgot

Originally Posted by meynaf

And another big problem is that many objects have properties that are hardwired in the code.

Okay, lets forget this then.

Originally Posted by meynaf

Even though i move these in the object descriptor when i find some - which triggers graphics.dat incompatibilities -, i don't really know how many are still hidden.
For example, diamond edge has extra ability to pierce armor.
Or, elven boots give a few percent bonus in maximum load.

Things are even worse when several weapon abilities are used simultaneously : e.g. for thrown weapons, damage also depends on weight.
So a good but light weapon isn't necessarily better than a heavy one.

Add to all this the fact that weapons have different options that reveal during the game, which makes some of them not so useful for beginners (e.g. hardcleave) and you will maybe see that giving weapon values not only can't replace player experience, but also can be misleading. DM rules are more complex than they look ; it's not about simple "damage value" like in many other games.

Right, that's nice Really not going to happen, then, eh?

Originally Posted by meynaf

You can't really do that, as objects are shown while the game is still running, that is, in real time. Not to mention it would make the interactivity a lot different, requiring two clicks instead of one (which isn't a single click, but a held one).

It could be done by using several individual clicks. First time shows page one, second time show page two, etc.

Originally Posted by meynaf

May be quite difficult to find in the nightmare dungeon...
But if you get it, you'll have an edge over our friend Don Adan here, who didn't find it.

Okay, lets find this thing then.

Originally Posted by meynaf

I know. It makes some puzzles a lot easier, but nevertheless is a good option even to me.

Making a map by hand would have the same effect.

Originally Posted by meynaf

I don't see the use for myself, but it shouldn't be too hard to add - once i've sorted out that complicated input code.

Why not? It should be more comfortable, or are you left-handed?

I've got a better idea for showing item infos: Just show increased stats for armor. That will fit without any problems. Alternatively, this stuff can be looked up easily on the DM encyclopedia, especially with two monitors.

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by Thorham

Right, that's nice Really not going to happen, then, eh?

Right, it's not as easy as most people think it is...

Originally Posted by Thorham

It could be done by using several individual clicks. First time shows page one, second time show page two, etc.

This would completely change the way it's done.

Originally Posted by Thorham

Okay, lets find this thing then.

Not an easy task

Originally Posted by Thorham

Making a map by hand would have the same effect.

Not really. A hand drawn map doesn't show changes.

Originally Posted by Thorham

Why not? It should be more comfortable, or are you left-handed?

No, not left-handed. I just fail to see the comfort gain here.

Originally Posted by Thorham

I've got a better idea for showing item infos: Just show increased stats for armor. That will fit without any problems.

Armor doesn't increase stats. It's just used in damage computation.

Originally Posted by Thorham

Alternatively, this stuff can be looked up easily on the DM encyclopedia, especially with two monitors.

Sure, and once you know the game and the objects, you just no longer need this kind of information...

[Thorham]

Originally Posted by meynaf

This would completely change the way it's done.

Would it be difficult?

Originally Posted by meynaf

Not an easy task

So it seems.

Originally Posted by meynaf

Not really. A hand drawn map doesn't show changes.

That's true, and it's a bit of a pity the auto map does, but it's unavoidable. I think I'll just use the auto map for basic orientation and nothing else (I detest spoilers).

Originally Posted by meynaf

No, not left-handed. I just fail to see the comfort gain here.

It's more ergonomic, because your hand would be in an easier position. The keypad is really in the wrong place for the left hand.

Originally Posted by meynaf

Armor doesn't increase stats. It's just used in damage computation.

I thought some armor did...

Originally Posted by meynaf

Sure, and once you know the game and the objects, you just no longer need this kind of information...

Perhaps that item info thing isn't all that useful then.

Any news on how Dan is coming along?

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by Thorham

Would it be difficult?

Yes, because the game doesn't stop while showing info.

Originally Posted by Thorham

It's more ergonomic, because your hand would be in an easier position. The keypad is really in the wrong place for the left hand.

But then your hands are more distant from each other, as the keyboard is large. Perhaps not so comfortable, but, hey, it will be there in next release.

Originally Posted by Thorham

I thought some armor did...

In Dm2, yes.

Originally Posted by Thorham

Perhaps that item info thing isn't all that useful then.

Indeed.

Originally Posted by Thorham

Any news on how Dan is coming along?

You mean Don ?

[Thorham]

Got a question: How many non-essential items can the dungeon hold?

Originally Posted by meynaf

But then your hands are more distant from each other, as the keyboard is large.

Not a problem, and peecee games have been using WASD for years, because of ergonomic reasons. Try it yourself. Place your hand on the WASD area, and then on the keypad without moving your A1200, and tell me which is easier.

Originally Posted by meynaf

it will be there in next release.

Great, thanks

Originally Posted by meynaf

In Dm2, yes.

DM has the Cloak of Night which gives your character +8 dexterity, and there are some others, too (not many, though).

Originally Posted by meynaf

You mean Don ?

Eh, yes

Anyway, I finally got in some good four to five hours of game play (had to tear myself away to make some food ).

Killed all of the monsters that come in the part after the Hall of Champions. Wondered around for too long and killed some of the big, yellow monsters (not the scorpions). Killed the Vexirk (spelling?) Brothers. Killed a bunch of worms. Killed a few rock piles, and killed a horde of mummies, after which I finally reached the water area. Phew!

Current levels (Halk, solo):

Fighter: Adapt
Ninja: Adapt
Priest: Journeyman
Wizard: Artisan

Time to get back playing

[Don_Adan]

Small infos about my progress, finished Death Road quest (received Lock Picks), finished 4 Dragons quest (next key to my collection), updated Butchery quest (next key is necessary to later journey). Started seven gold quest, go to depth levels (received Green Gem), collected full Darc armor for Daroou, collected full Dragon armor for Linflas.
Daroou is:
Fighter 5th Master
Ninja 4th Master
Priest 4th Master
Wizard 4th Master

[Thorham]

Originally Posted by Don_Adan

Small infos about my progress, finished Death Road quest (received Lock Picks), finished 4 Dragons quest (next key to my collection), updated Butchery quest (next key is necessary to later journey). Started seven gold quest, go to depth levels (received Green Gem), collected full Darc armor for Daroou, collected full Dragon armor for Linflas.
Daroou is:
Fighter 5th Master
Ninja 4th Master
Priest 4th Master
Wizard 4th Master

Impressive But... I'm gonna catch up with you

Meynaf, how far is he?

[Don_Adan]

Originally Posted by Thorham

Impressive But... I'm gonna catch up with you

Better try to find Magic Map, due perhaps I missed this item for now.
You can check: pit hole, fake wall and plate in one line combination. Also I don't checked all walls (for fake or buttons) exactly, due this map is very large (over 30 or more levels, mostly 34x34 cells).

Originally Posted by Thorham

Meynaf, how far is he?

Perhaps this is secret, due bet with Phil. But I suspected that over 20%. For now I have ~30 keys, 2 gems.

[Thorham]

Originally Posted by Don_Adan

Better try to find Magic Map, due perhaps I missed this item for now.

Yeah, hope I can find it...

Originally Posted by Don_Adan

You can check: pit hole, fake wall and plate in one line combination.

Please, no spoilers of this kind

Originally Posted by Don_Adan

Perhaps this is secret, due bet with Phil. But I suspected that over 20%.

20 percent? How many hours did that take?

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by Thorham

Got a question: How many non-essential items can the dungeon hold?

The dungeon can hold up to 1024 objects of each kind (weapons, clothing, chests, scrolls, potions, misc), regardless if they are essential or not.
Is that what you wanted to know ?

Originally Posted by Thorham

Not a problem, and peecee games have been using WASD for years, because of ergonomic reasons. Try it yourself. Place your hand on the WASD area, and then on the keypad without moving your A1200, and tell me which is easier.

I've tried it, and i don't feel easy this way. Matter of habits perhaps. Also remember DM would be QWE/ASD due it has 6 direction buttons.

Originally Posted by Thorham

DM has the Cloak of Night which gives your character +8 dexterity, and there are some others, too (not many, though).

Yes, the dexhelm and the powertowers. Forgot about these. However, it's easy to know what they do from the character's values, no need to pollute the object info area with that.
Also other objects have effects more difficult to tell, like elven boots.

Originally Posted by Thorham

Eh, yes

He is cheating, so you can consider all his achievements as invalid.
You are still the best player in my dungeon.

Originally Posted by Thorham

Anyway, I finally got in some good four to five hours of game play (had to tear myself away to make some food ).

Killed all of the monsters that come in the part after the Hall of Champions. Wondered around for too long and killed some of the big, yellow monsters (not the scorpions). Killed the Vexirk (spelling?) Brothers. Killed a bunch of worms. Killed a few rock piles, and killed a horde of mummies, after which I finally reached the water area. Phew!

Current levels (Halk, solo):

Fighter: Adapt
Ninja: Adapt
Priest: Journeyman
Wizard: Artisan

Time to get back playing

That's some quite nice startup

Originally Posted by Don_Adan

Small infos about my progress, finished Death Road quest (received Lock Picks), finished 4 Dragons quest (next key to my collection), updated Butchery quest (next key is necessary to later journey). Started seven gold quest, go to depth levels (received Green Gem), collected full Darc armor for Daroou, collected full Dragon armor for Linflas.
Daroou is:
Fighter 5th Master
Ninja 4th Master
Priest 4th Master
Wizard 4th Master

Still bragging here, eh ? Okay, Thorham asked for news, but haven't you had enough already ?

Originally Posted by Thorham

Impressive But... I'm gonna catch up with you

I doubt you will, as you're playing fair and he does not.

Originally Posted by Thorham

Meynaf, how far is he?

As far as a cheater can get.

Originally Posted by Don_Adan

Better try to find Magic Map, due perhaps I missed this item for now.
You can check: pit hole, fake wall and plate in one line combination. Also I don't checked all walls (for fake or buttons) exactly, due this map is very large (over 30 or more levels, mostly 34x34 cells).

You won't find it this way.

Originally Posted by Don_Adan

Perhaps this is secret, due bet with Phil. But I suspected that over 20%. For now I have ~30 keys, 2 gems.

It doesn't matter, as for anyone who cheats it becomes invalid anyway.

Originally Posted by Thorham

Yeah, hope I can find it...

Would be a lot easier in another dungeon...

Originally Posted by Thorham

Please, no spoilers of this kind

+1

Originally Posted by Thorham

20 percent? How many hours did that take?

He's "playing" since 15th of August. That's many, many hours.
But I could reach where he is in less than a single week.


Anyway...

Don't you find it a little strange that this guy, never having really played DM before (or any other similar RPG game, btw), can get this far ?


Our friend Don Adan's fave fighting technique is : save - try a fight round - reload if not satisfying.
Add to this he abuses of invisibility spell, has slowed down the game to solve a puzzle (!), asked a few people for help (you knew that already for yourself), repeatedly tried to worm information out of me (by mail), has looked in the data files for getting info (and lied when i asked him how he got all the game's key names), and is strongly suspected of cheating by other means (code and/or save alterations, simple dungeon mapper).

Every time he appears to be close to blocked, he suddenly finds a solution and resumes playing without having really stopped. He was quite elusive in explaining me how he passed some puzzles. The ones he passes the easiest are either based on monster fights, or (more recently) the ones someone could find a lot easier if having a map beforehand. Ahem...

Is all that playing it fair ?

[Thorham]

Originally Posted by meynaf

The dungeon can hold up to 1024 objects of each kind (weapons, clothing, chests, scrolls, potions, misc), regardless if they are essential or not.
Is that what you wanted to know ?

That's almost exactly what I wanted to know. I'm asking because of things such as worm rounds and screamer slices. I don't want them to go to waste, but extensively training just to use them up sucks a little.

Originally Posted by meynaf

I've tried it, and i don't feel easy this way. Matter of habits perhaps. Also remember DM would be QWE/ASD due it has 6 direction buttons.

While playing for a five hours straight I could really feel my wrist and under arm because of the awkward hand position. QWEASD would be a blessing for long sessions.

Originally Posted by meynaf

Yes, the dexhelm and the powertowers. Forgot about these. However, it's easy to know what they do from the character's values, no need to pollute the object info area with that.
Also other objects have effects more difficult to tell, like elven boots.

True. Those item infos aren't really necessary with the guides that are available. I have a dual monitor setup and can switch one monitor to Amiga so that I can view docs and what not on the peecee at the same time (also really handy for viewing coding docs).

Originally Posted by meynaf

He is cheating, so you can consider all his achievements as invalid.

Really? That's not cool.

Originally Posted by meynaf

You are still the best player in my dungeon.

Perhaps

Originally Posted by meynaf

That's some quite nice startup

Yep, but it sure took me long enough.

Originally Posted by meynaf

I doubt you will, as you're playing fair and he does not.

But he's been playing quite a long time now.

Originally Posted by meynaf

He's "playing" since 15th of August. That's many, many hours.

Then perhaps I can catch up

Originally Posted by meynaf

But I could reach where he is in less than a single week.

Of course, you made the dungeon

Originally Posted by meynaf

Don't you find it a little strange that this guy, never having really played DM before (or any other similar RPG game, btw), can get this far ?

Not necessarily. Puzzles are puzzles, regardless of the game, and once you learn how to dance around monsters, the combat becomes less difficult. Also, he's been playing for months, so that alone means he's not a beginner anymore.

Originally Posted by meynaf

Our friend Don Adan's fave fighting technique is : save - try a fight round - reload if not satisfying.

Sounds like a waste of time.

Originally Posted by meynaf

Add to this he abuses of invisibility spell

That's actually quite smart (I've never used even used it ).

Originally Posted by meynaf

has slowed down the game to solve a puzzle (!)

Yep, that's outright cheating alright

Originally Posted by meynaf

asked a few people for help (you knew that already for yourself)

He only asked me for some general playing tips.

Originally Posted by meynaf

repeatedly tried to worm information out of me (by mail)

As if that would get him anywhere

Originally Posted by meynaf

has looked in the data files for getting info (and lied when i asked him how he got all the game's key names)

That sucks

Originally Posted by meynaf

and is strongly suspected of cheating by other means (code and/or save alterations, simple dungeon mapper).

Doesn't sound good

Originally Posted by meynaf

Is all that playing it fair ?

If it's all true, then yes, it's cheating. Very uncool

I've noticed a problem in the dungeon at that test that has two parts (the one you access from the Hall of Champions safe area). There's a button in the poison area that doesn't seem to work (no button press sound). Bug?

To Don:

Come on man, play fair. Much more fun that way