Zeus68k – Accelerator/IDE/RAM for the A500/2000/CDTV and others

[Geraldine]

I like this! Looking forward to more news and might be interested in one for my 500+

[TotO]

It's a great news for forgotten users !

mr.vince, I have some questions about the actual design:

Why using a big 3"1/2 40-pins IDE insted of an autopowered 2"1/2 44-pins, like on A600 ?
That allow to plug inconspicuous disk-on-module or CF card on it.
IDE drives come to disapear, take space, make noise... Only disadvantages finaly.
OK, you can plug a CD-ROM drive... But... it's useless today, no?

Why overclocking so much the Freescale CPU ?
Using a x1/x2/x4 multiplicator to get 7/14/28MHz on Amiga and 8/16/32Mhz on ST systems. (boot menu)
That is far enough and probably more systems friendly?

EDIT:
I know that the last Minimig firmware update allow 49,63MHz turbo mode too, but...
It look more like a bid for power, no?

Thank you.

[Ribdevil]

I want one, and I wanted now.

[Ché]

Originally Posted by Ribdevil

I want one, and I wanted now.

Count on me. I'll take at last two.

Markus

[TotO]

mr.vince,

I'm realy happy that you want to conciderate the CDTV users with your promissing 4-in-1 Zeus68k board.

The CDTV is a great part of hardware and is respected by users that wouldn't like to hack the mainboard to fit something on it. So, I hope that the final design can allow that.

Thank you.

[tom256]

Originally Posted by TotO

It's a great news for forgotten users !

Why using a big 3"1/2 40-pins IDE insted of an autopowered 2"1/2 44-pins, like on A600 ?
That allow to plug inconspicuous disk-on-module or CF card on it.
IDE drives come to disapear, take space, make noise... Only disadvantages finaly.
OK, you can plug a CD-ROM drive... But... it's useless today, no?

I agree with you, CompactFlash reader or IDE 44pin would be just fine.
But this suppose to be open source project so you can always modify it.

It would be nice if IDE would use DMA but I'm not sure is it possible.
And why always PIO0 mode in Amiga?? :P

Originally Posted by TotO

Why overclocking so much the Freescale CPU ?
Using a x1/x2/x4 multiplicator to get 7/14/28MHz on Amiga and 8/16/32Mhz on ST systems. (boot menu)
That is far enough and probably more systems friendly?

Because everyone want's SPEEEEEEEEED!!!!!

If it's tested and working fine what's the problem?? Extra speed is always welcome. In 2012 50MHz is not so much

[TotO]

Because, overclocking a CPU may work on some but not all CPU and can reduce its lifetime too.
Tests are made in long summer hot days ?

And we speak about a A500 with 68K CPU... More power for doing what ?
Playing games ? Sorting the WB icons ? XD

This board will be great for WHDLoad.
I will be happy to get a 28MHz stable and cold computer all the year.

[desiv]

Originally Posted by TotO

I will be happy to get a 28MHz stable and cold computer all the year.

And would you also be happy with a stable and cold 50Mhz computer all the year?

It might be...

desiv

[mr.vince]

Rest assured, the CPU does not get hot. It's not an overclocked Intel chip...

[ptyerman]

Overclocking a CPU is fine and does not cause damage, though it can cause instability if clocked too much. Overvolting a CPU to push it past its comfy maximum is a different matter altogether and does shorten its lifespan considerably! I will purchase one of these and have no concerns.

[Firedawg]

Definitely be interested in one!

Great job!

[ImmortalA1000]

Sadly I would want it for my PAL A1000 and would need IDE working on KS1.3 (because it looks nicer haha) so for me I'm going to have to pass sadly. Great project though and good luck to everyone working on this

(don't like A500 and both my A2000s are dead and they cost wayyyyyyyyy too much for a 7mhz Amiga computer on ebay to replace even when empty)

[desiv]

Originally Posted by ImmortalA1000

.... would need IDE working on KS1.3 (because it looks nicer haha) so for me I'm going to have to pass sadly.

What's the possibility of a custom 1.3 ROM with the DRIVER from 2.x (or ??) to support the hard drive???

desiv

[TotO]

Originally Posted by mr.vince

Rest assured, the CPU does not get hot. It's not an overclocked Intel chip...

I am more worried about the fact of not being able to put the card into a CDTV, than to know if that CPU can be (or not) overclocked.
Because, if the design is though for, it can fit in both A500/A2000 too.
(like the Elbox memory expansion as example)

[mr.vince]

Well leaving holes for e.g. capacitors would mean doing this for various revs which is an issue. It would also make the card considerably larger, more expensive, and therefore less attractive.

Since all these old caps are dead anyway, our approach is to have these replaced when you put in the board. It does not take long, and there are smaller caps available, and you could still chose to solder it in "lying" on the board instead of having it stand. Since you are at it, why not exchange other caps, too?

[TotO]

Thank you for the answer mr.vince.

Sure that a special design will cost more, I understand.
Now, I though that making a longer but less larger board may fit on all Amiga without custom holes or something else.

[uridium]

I'd be super keen to buy one of these. Seriously.. love these sorts of projects and this one might make my subway USB usable on the A500 with thumb drives. Even with a low quantum it's pretty sluggish.

Love yer work with the accel.

How's the Minimig do 52Mhz? Sneaking suspicion that the thing reproduces the 68000 in the FPGA. Out of interest.. is there any FPGA 68RC030+68881 bug-for-bug projects out there? Wondering what sort of performance this could bring.

[mr.vince]

The Minimig has the very same CPU...

[jiffy]

/me is highly interested. :-)

I would also prefer to use either a 44 pin IDE solution or, even better, a CF-connector. It wouldn't be a dealbreaker for me, though.

More important for me is if it fits an A500 with an Indivision ECS built in...

[TotO]

CF-connector is more limited to the usage.
With a 44-pin IDE you can plug more modern devices.

[tom256]

TotO relax

This board will be great for WHDLoad.
I will be happy to get a 28MHz stable and cold computer all the year

Overclocking doesn't reduce CPU lifetime. Its heat nad voltage

About heat, well lets see for MC68SEC0000 20MHz:

3.3V * 15mA = 50mW = 0.05W.
My Core i7 has 130W. Do you see difference???

Even overclocked, this CPU won't even get warm!!!!!!

And we speak about a A500 with 68K CPU... More power for doing what ?
Playing games ? Sorting the WB icons ? XD

If you dont need 50MHz you can switch to 7MHz. What's the problem?

I hope in future Amiga Turbo board will have USB in standard.
I really miss it in Amiga computers

BTW Why do you think that 28MHz CPU card will be more compatible than 50MHz???

[Sim085]

I am interestedas well ...

[kamelito]

Nice, is it possible to put and access cartridges (Action Replay...) in one or more kickstart slot and access it through an NMI interrupt ?
Kamelito

[mr.vince]

Action Replay support is built it. Just flash the ROM, then attach a button to the card (plugging it on a jumper), that's it.

[alexh]

Originally Posted by desiv

What's the possibility of a custom 1.3 ROM with the DRIVER from 2.x (or ??) to support the hard drive???

Such a solution already exists and has been used on the A600 and other 16-bit Amiga's equipped with the IDE68k board and so should work fine with Zeus

http://aminet.net/package/util/boot/kick13scsipatch

[TotO]

Originally Posted by tom256

Overclocking doesn't reduce CPU lifetime.
About heat, well lets see for MC68SEC0000 20MHz:
3.3V * 15mA = 50mW = 0.05W.
My Core i7 has 130W. Do you see difference???

All electronics components are affected by using them out of range. It's why manufacturers give specs. But, in most case the lifetime is so long that you can't encounter the problem and though that nothing change.

It's not because this CPU have a very low power consumption that you can overclock it to the infinite w/o problem "compared to your Core i7 CPU"...

A good old Motorola 68000 is only 1,35W. Overclock it to 100% and it fail and goes very hot... You though it was only 2,70W ??? WRONG (shortcut)
Do you see the difference ?

Originally Posted by tom256

If you dont need 50MHz you can switch to 7MHz. What's the problem?
BTW Why do you think that 28MHz CPU card will be more compatible than 50MHz???

If I don't need 50MHz, instead of switching to 7MHz I may not buy a card too.
28MHz don't overclock so much the CPU and is already 4 times the original speed... It's just far enough for most uses, as WHDLoad.
Don't expect to run intensive 2D/3D programs... At 50MHz it will be slow too.

Do you remember the PC "turbo switch" to make games don't crash or run to fast because that affect the program timing ?

A multiple frequency choice on the boot menu will be just great to increase compatibility.

[mr.vince]

We'll look into adding more clock options. For the record... all of this is done in the FPGA which can be reprogrammed as it's getting its code from the onboard flash memory.

[TotO]

Great for all. Many thanks!

[tom256]

Originally Posted by TotO

All electronics components are affected by using them out of range. It's why manufacturers give specs. But, in most case the lifetime is so long that you can't encounter the problem and though that nothing change.

Not really. For example MC68040/25MHz and 40Mhz is the same CPU. Just 40MHz pass test with 40Mhz clock, 25MHz probably didn't or wasn't tested.
Similar case is MC68030, or Intel CPU.

BTW There was many overclocked CPU card with MC68030(for example 33MHz to 40Mhz), and they are still working for 15 years. The only problem is RTC baterry. I didn't seen CPU dead because of overclocking or age.
Look at ZXspectrum. 30 years. Chips still working!!!!!!


The enemy is always temperature and high voltage!!!
You could read something more about it. I'm overclocking Computers for 15 years, and didn't kill any. 3 victimis was graphics cards, but dead because different reasons, 3 pairs of DDR2 RAMs (not sure why, probably temperature, or faulty chips), but still never CPU.

It's not because this CPU have a very low power consumption that you can overclock it to the infinite w/o problem "compared to your Core i7 CPU"...

A good old Motorola 68000 is only 1,35W. Overclock it to 100% and it fail and goes very hot... You though it was only 2,70W ??? WRONG (shortcut)
Do you see the difference ?

But still 2,7W is much, much more than 0,05W. Try to get chip hot with 0,05W. CPU will start dispatch much heat when you raise voltage. With only overclocking it won't rise much. Anyway new MC680000 won't need seatsink. See numbers???? old Motorola 1.35W. No HEATSINK!!!! Why new CPU with 0.05W would need one??? New CPU after overclocking will never hit 0,5W!!!!! I would say about maybe 0.2W, but its still less than old Motorla MC68000. Much less.

Or better try minimig guys about compability and problems with 50Mhz CPU.

If I don't need 50MHz, instead of switching to 7MHz I may not buy a card too.
28MHz don't overclock so much the CPU and is already 4 times the original speed... It's just far enough for most uses, as WHDLoad.
Don't expect to run intensive 2D/3D programs... At 50MHz it will be slow too.

Do you remember the PC "turbo switch" to make games don't crash or run to fast because that affect the program timing ?

Sure. The problems was mainly because of build in coprocessor, with very very old games. Anyway I didnt saw any programs which has problems with to fast CPU. But still it was primitive DOS, not workbench,

[Mr B]

Originally Posted by ptyerman

Overclocking a CPU is fine and does not cause damage, though it can cause instability if clocked too much.

Actually, increasing the frequency does increase the heat generated at the same voltage. It will use more Amp's, of course. However, overclocking alone wont destroy a CPU, as you said, it might be unable to switch reliably, and crash, but to cause permanent damage it has to overheat, or burn out through over voltage.

Originally Posted by tom256

The enemy is always temperature and high voltage!!!
You could read something more about it. I'm overclocking Computers for 15 years, and didn't kill any. 3 victimis was graphics cards, but dead because different reasons, 3 pairs of DDR2 RAMs (not sure why, probably temperature, or faulty chips), but still never CPU.

Electromigration could in theory be accelerated by over-clocking, and as such shorten lifespan, but the concept of killer electromigration is debated.

Originally Posted by tom256

New CPU after overclocking will never hit 0,5W!!!!! I would say about maybe 0.2W, but its still less than old Motorla MC68000. Much less.

If memory isn't messing me up completely, you can pretty much say that doubling the frequency doubles the Amp usage, and as such, doubles the heat output. If your figure of 0.05w is correct, it's not likely to be a problem. (In reality it's actually more likely to less then double the heat output & power draw, but for the sake of argument)
A old Motorola chip asked to do 100% overclock simply cant copy, and pretty much short circuits, causing it to heat up, and act like a small firecracker. In the unlikely event that you find one that actually can take the 100% overclock, it shouldn't get nearly as hot.

[CUF]

I want one!!!

Great project guys!

[jimbob]

I reckon the massive overclock is possible on this chip because it's target is low power embedded systems not high performance multimedia machines, (like amiga).

As for heat, digital circuits draw current and dissipate power mostly only when bits are changing state. Change state faster and the average current therefore increases. But double the speed~double the current~QUADRUPLE the power or heat. Power is proportional to the square of the current.

ie. chips get hotter faster than the clock gets faster. Chips will fail to work but still get hot when the overclock is so great that they cannot attain valid logic levels in the time allowed by the higher frequency. This is why you increase voltage to achieve a stable overclock. The higher voltage causes more current to flow allowing the chip to reach valid logic levels in time. But again, power increases in proportion to the square of this current increase. Overclocking in this style is a double whammy of heat problems.

The fact that this is not necesarry on this chip tells me that the 7Mhz spec must be a big underclock for power considerations otherwise this would never work at 50Mhz. If the minimig has proved this chip is good at 50Mhz, and you don't care about power consumption, (which is still low, just not decades of battery life low), I don't see a problem. The fact that the reprogrammable design allows the designers to easily add a variable speed option is pretty smart though. Great project, I hope it is successful.

[Sim085]

After reading all four pages I must admit that I am now even more interested (with a level of excitement too!!). The specifications given so far looks great. I was wondering from where will we be able to order this? Will we have a pre-order option?

I just have a question (which comes from my limited understanding of hardware, so please forgive me if such question is stupid); This card will emulate the 68000 processor right? if yes, then can't this same FPGA chip emulate the AGA chipset as well? Making the A500 on par with the A1200!

My question is just out of curiosity only, regardless of the answer, if specs remain like this then I am in for one for sure.

[Mr B]

Originally Posted by Sim085

I just have a question (which comes from my limited understanding of hardware, so please forgive me if such question is stupid); This card will emulate the 68000 processor right? if yes, then can't this same FPGA chip emulate the AGA chipset as well? Making the A500 on par with the A1200!

Yes, it will emulate the 68000. We are just bored out of our mind, and talk about the effect of over-clocking the physical CPU as if it would matter.

Dude, please. Read the thread again.

[jimbob]

Originally Posted by Mr B

Yes, it will emulate the 68000. We are just bored out of our mind, and talk about the effect of over-clocking the physical CPU as if it would matter.

Dude, please. Read the thread again.
B!

Originally Posted by mr.vince

"One board to rule them all..."

68SEC000 CPU running at 7 or 50 MHz
.
.
.

Your impatience is showing. 2nd line of the thread says it is a real 68000 not emulated.

[kamelito]

No plan to do a kind of indivision ecs built in?
Kamelito

[desiv]

The problem with trying to use the FPGA to do more than just the control functions is that you would need to hook it up to more places on the Amiga..

Need it to simulate an IndiECS (Assuming you had a powerful enough FPGA, which would probably shoot the price WAY up), you need to hook it up to the Denise chip as well.
Total redesign...

Need it to do AGA?
You need to hook it up to ..er.. um.. everywhere.. the whole board.. :-)

The reason it can do the RAM and IDE is that those can pull right off of the CPU.

desiv

[Mr B]

Originally Posted by jimbob

Your impatience is showing. 2nd line of the thread says it is a real 68000 not emulated.

I'm hoping that wasn't directed at me. I'm quite aware that the CPU isn't emulated in FPGA.

[jimbob]

Originally Posted by Mr B

I'm hoping that wasn't directed at me. I'm quite aware that the CPU isn't emulated in FPGA.

Yes it was, sorry if I didn't catch you were being sarcastic when you replied to sim085

"yes it will emulate the 68000"

I though you meant it and then told sim085 to read the thread.

You know how it is with tone of voice and forum posts.

[Sim085]

Originally Posted by Mr B

I'm quite aware that the CPU isn't emulated in FPGA.

...