Best titles for testing upscalers

[BuckoA51]

I want to put a new upscaler through the paces with Amiga content. What are the best games to try? Is there anything on the Amiga that uses a lot of drop shadows for sprites for instance? (since they often cause issues on HDTV's/scalers). At the moment I've been using the old Psygnosis game Menace and Turrican 2 to test smooth scrolling.

[moijk]

Originally Posted by BuckoA51

I want to put a new upscaler through the paces with Amiga content. What are the best games to try? Is there anything on the Amiga that uses a lot of drop shadows for sprites for instance? (since they often cause issues on HDTV's/scalers). At the moment I've been using the old Psygnosis game Menace and Turrican 2 to test smooth scrolling.

That would be fun to know. I got a test coming up myself since i got internal and external scandoublers. tv, multisync crt, vga crt, ips and tn screens to test with.

[Toni Wilen]

I have used Pinball Illusions (before starting game, when table scrolls up and down), both normal and in interlaced mode. (F9/F10 key) for smooth scrolling testing.

[moijk]

Originally Posted by Toni Wilen

I have used Pinball Illusions (before starting game, when table scrolls up and down), both normal and in interlaced mode. (F9/F10 key) for smooth scrolling testing.

Also, testing of response time would be nice. Like the time it takes from one do a joystick motion to the screen respond in different modes. to see the possible lag given by the scandoubler

[BuckoA51]

Testing response time is something I can't do because I don't have a suitable camera or CRT to test against. I'll certainly give Pinball Illusions a go though, I forgot that had gameplay in interlace mode.

Ah! Found one, Fusion by Bullfrog uses drop shadows under sprites extensively, though it's certainly not the best looking Amiga game its fine for testing.

[clauddio]

Originally Posted by BuckoA51

I want to put a new upscaler through the paces with Amiga content. What are the best games to try? Is there anything on the Amiga that uses a lot of drop shadows for sprites for instance? (since they often cause issues on HDTV's/scalers). At the moment I've been using the old Psygnosis game Menace and Turrican 2 to test smooth scrolling.

the best games to test smooth scrolling are Aladdin and BCkid
if those 2 games works correctly and the scroll is smooth > then everything is ok

[Foul]

my 2 best games for testing scrolling are SlamTilt and Virtual Karting...

Virtual Karting is unplayable without good 50Hz emulation...

[Toni Wilen]

BC Kid probably won't work because it uses strange 57Hz display mode. (Using VPOSW "fake 60Hz" trick)

[BuckoA51]

I'll definitely give BC Kid a go then. Wasn't Virtual Karting a later Amiga game? I only have an 020 here with 8mb fast will that still run?

[Foul]

Whdload say :

It requires:
- WHDLoad 15+
- AGA chipset and MC68020+
- 860 KB ChipMem and 952 KB OtherMem (+1.7 MB OtherMem for preload option)

So your config is enough

[BuckoA51]

I can only find Virtual Karting 2 I guess that's essentially the same thing?

[Foul]

Same Rendering... Best on RGB Monitors .. Ugly on LCD

[Toni Wilen]

I don't see the point of including Virtual Karting 1/2. Of course they look ugly because they assume crap quality monitor or composite video or RF.

Those games look ugly even with good quality CRT via RGB!

[BuckoA51]

Tony are you sure about B.C Kid? It's showing as 49.91hz Vertical refresh same as all other PAL Amiga stuff, is it possible you got it muddled with a different game?

[Toni Wilen]

Originally Posted by BuckoA51

Tony are you sure about B.C Kid? It's showing as 49.91hz Vertical refresh same as all other PAL Amiga stuff, is it possible you got it muddled with a different game?

Yes, at least original does it.

[BuckoA51]

hmm very strange, I'm not seeing it here on the WHDLoad version on my CD32.

[rare_j]

Originally Posted by BuckoA51

I want to put a new upscaler

Is this the xrgb3/edge/extron combo or something newer?
Pls fill us in on the kit and results!

[BuckoA51]

The new XRGB Mini Framemeister, since 1.07 it's had PAL support. Full review should be up today, I've tested C64 and Amiga. I'll pop the link up when it's done.

[rare_j]

Pal support for the framemeister??? Brilliant news.
Can you also test a 576i source while you're at it? Thanks

[BuckoA51]

576i from the Amiga is part of the test, yes

[BuckoA51]

Review is up on my Wordpress blog http://www.videogameperfection.com/a...-torture-test/

It's kinda long-winded, so feel free to skim it

[rare_j]

Nice review, covers off a lot of info.
Slighty curious that the c128 output was scaled with the wrong aspect. I wonder why that would be. Odd timing?
Would you be able to do a quick test with a PAL PS2 or GC, that wouls be awesome. Fudoh has a great page but he's not interested in 50hz sources really.
Basically this is brilliant news though, at last a competent device, affordabe (just!) that supports 50hz. SOLD

Wil you hold onto the xrgb3?

[BuckoA51]

Yes I was slightly surprised that the C64/C128 scaling was off at 720p output, but as you can see from the review its beautiful if you set the mini to output 576p instead of 720p or 1080p and most TV's do a reasonable job with 480p or 576p. I doubt it has anything to do with timing, that usually only effects scrolling/stuttering and the C128 was completely stutter free. It's more likely due to bad firmware programming/scaling of PAL sources. Hopefully more improvements to PAL handling will happen in future firmware updates too. Micomsoft seem determined to make the Mini work with everything, even esoteric arcade boards with weird 54hz refresh rates etc. Fudoh assures me that the scaling chip the Mini is based on is perfectly capable of scaling PAL and NTSC material beautifully, just a matter of them getting the firmware 100% right.

I will test the PAL PS2 and GC I just need to order a couple of bits to hook them up, should have it all working sometime next month, I'm sure they will be fine though. Fudoh has tested a PAL title on the PS2 and it's the same story with scanlines (only work at 576p) otherwise he seemed to think it was fine.

I'm keeping the XRGB3 for the moment since it works better with games like Pinbal Illusions, that change from non-interlace to interlace mid game. The picture sizing and panning controls are also nicer on the XRGB3+Edge, though as I point out you could always feed the Mini into the Edge too. So yeah I'm keeping it for now but if I was building a system from scratch I wouldn't bother with it. Remember that if you're thinking of picking up an XRGB3 cheaply second hand, it won't work with many modern TV's directly, and because it outputs 50hz VGA when fed a PAL signal it will work with virtually no TV's at all when fed PAL material (hence the need for the DVDO Edge in the setup you see).

[rare_j]

How do you connect RGB scart to the framemeister?
Is there an RGB scart adapter for that d-sub socket or do you have to find an adapter for that funny little hole on the front? Can you feed in RGB over phono cables into the D-sub?

Also, how would you go about connecting VGA from a Dreamcast to it? Can vga go into that d-sub somehow? I'm assuming the framemeister would do a better job of scaling 480p that a standard telly.

Was it straightforward to get a UK PSU plug for it? Assuming the supplied PSU is only good for Japan.

My knowledge of Japanese av cabling is pretty thin!

[BuckoA51]

I'm not sure what you mean by d-sub connector, there's no D-Sub15 connector on the mini, maybe you mean the D in at the back? That's a D-Terminal socket which is basically the Japanese version of component (YPbPr). You can't feed in RGB to this input and unfortunately, unlike a lot of video processors you can't feed in YPbPr to the RGB input either. If you want to connect component video, best to get a D-Terminal to component adapter when you buy the Mini.

To connect SCART you connect it via the mini-din connector on the front. The unit actually ships with a RGB21 adaptor, that looks identical to SCART but is actually wired up totally differently. DO NOT plug in a SCART cable into this adaptor. Either buy another adapter to convert it to SCART or buy a SCART to Mini adapter such as this one http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Micomsoft-...item2570862f11

VGA I've not tried, but I'm reliably told it's possible, all you need is something to combine the sync (from RGBHV to RGBC) you could either wire up your own circuit or use Arcadeforge's Ultimate Scart Adaptor http://wp1114205.wp150.webpack.hoste...9qgg2l5eitq2d0

The lack of a VGA input is a shame for Dreamcast fans but at least it can be done.

As for the PSU, I actually had a stepdown lying around spare from somewhere I forget that I just used. Long as you could find a tip that matched the mini there's no reason why you couldn't just use a UK AC/DC converter though.

[rare_j]

Many thanks for the advice - appreciate it. I'll live with the lack of VGA for DC.
Do you know where i might download the english manual for the framemeister? (if there is such a thing) I did a search and didn't come up with much.

I've been trying to think of games that switch between interlaced and non interlaced screens - all I can come up with are team 17 games where their splash screen logo is always interlaced.

[BuckoA51]

Do you know where i might download the english manual for the framemeister? (if there is such a thing) I did a search and didn't come up with much.

No English manual, though the menus can be switched to 100% English on the unit. There's a Wiki for it that's just got started, http://junkerhq.net/xrgb/index.php/X...i_FRAMEMEISTER and a big discussion thread over at shmups forum http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic...749427#p749427

I've been trying to think of games that switch between interlaced and non interlaced screens - all I can come up with are team 17 games where their splash screen logo is always interlaced.

I can't think of many, the Pinball titles on the Amiga are the big ones of course. Resident Evil on the N64 does it when you switch to inventory so I'm told. I think one of the Sonic games does it on a level splash screen.

I'll live with the lack of VGA for DC.

Well I have it on very good authority VGA will work on the Framemeister, it just unfortunately means buying or building more adapters. If you do this mod to your Dreamcast VGA box though http://www.videogameperfection.com/c...able-swapping/ You can actually send 15 and 31khz RGB from the Dreamcast down the same wire which is pretty convenient.