Details for the next generation of Flickerfixers from Individual Computers

[MarkONE]

In a speach at the Amiwest2010, Jens Schoenefeld announced that the next generation of flickerfixer (scan doubler) for the A1200 and A400 will have a DVI port and will use DDR- instead of SD Ram.

Source: Amiganews

[alexh]

I wonder if it will be a DVI-D port or a DVI-A port?

It would have to be a D, wouldn't it?

The DDR thing is probably just because it is cheaper than SDR and the FPGA can do it. Possibly because it could potentially use fewer pins. Probably not an end user feature.

[korruptor]

Any dates?

[Paul_s]

Still under development according to Jen's website...

Price is set at 149,90€

[korruptor]

Gah, I'm gagging to get onto a decent monitor...

Cheers

[Schoenfeld]

Originally Posted by alexh

I wonder if it will be a DVI-D port or a DVI-A port?

It'll be DVI-I, because I want this thing to work on both digital flat screens and analog CRTs.

Originally Posted by alexh

The DDR thing is probably just because it is cheaper than SDR and the FPGA can do it. Possibly because it could potentially use fewer pins. Probably not an end user feature.

It's both fewer pins and higher speed. A 200MHz DDR chip is easy to come by, but the 200MHz SD-Rams that I'm using on Chameleon and the A1200 accelerators are *very* rare.

Jens

[Retrofan]

Now it's when I discover why I should have left more threads and posts here. Yesterday (7 months after I bought my first Amiga) I discovered some people weren't at A-org (and why). (I will stay there still, of course).

Today I have just left a Thread here (and A-org) of WTB an Indivision Aga: I will tell I'm waiting for it for several months (they were supossed to be for sale on september) and when I knew Individual Computers were into the new accelerators, I thought the new Indivisions for A1200 won't be for sale till around June.

One simple question: Must I wait for the new ones or must I go for a second hand one?

EDIT: Well, I have to add I'll be buying one of the new accelerators when they'll be for sale too.

[roberthazelby]

Amigakit tell me that they expect another batch of Indivision AGA cards in before Christmas.

[Retrofan]

Good, good, good to know. I will delete my WTB then, but please can any other confirm please?

[phipscube]

Jens, I don't know if you've thought about this, and if its something that can be easily implemented, but what would be really nice in the next gen Indivisions for A1200 is a pass through for BVision GFX cards with auto switching between AGA and the BVisions RTG (dependant on which is active) out to one DVI-I connector. What do you think?

[Schoenfeld]

I've thought about it, and decided not to do it. Reason is that it would take too much explaining and it would only work for certain configurations.

If you have a DVI-connected screen, then you'd expect to get the Cybervision signal through that channel as well. This would require me to make a A-D conversion for the Cybervision signal on Indivision AGA - that's very expensive and it would still be the same (if not worse) quality.

Switching the signal would only work for analog, but then the benefit of DVI is gone. However, if you have a DVI flatscreen, you have two inputs anyway (one analog VGA and a digital DVI). What's so bad about selecting the source on the monitor?

What we could do (and this is actually the plan for the next updates of all Indivision cores) is that we provide a common API for all Indivision models that lets external software switch off the Sync signals, so an external monitor switch or the monitor itself can do an automatic selection. I'm assuming that DVI takes precedence over VGA on any modern flat screen, so this will provide the functionality that you're looking for.

Jens

[phipscube]

Thanks for the explanation Jens. I'm just anal and like the idea of having everything out of one connection

[Retrofan]

So I may understand that they still have a long way to go before we can see them? The Indivision boards are the replacements for Lisa and Denise in the Clone-A. Are they the most difficult progress to get the Clone-A project on it's way at this time?

[Schoenfeld]

Originally Posted by Retrofan

The Indivision boards are the replacements for Lisa and Denise in the Clone-A.

No, they are not. Only Indivision ECS contains a Denise. Indivision AGA does not contain a Lisa. The products are substantially different.

Originally Posted by Retrofan

Are they the most difficult progress to get the Clone-A project on it's way?

Clone-A development on the Amiga/Chipset side has been finished years ago. We're on the user interface, which is a ground breaking concept in FPGA computers. Don't pry, you won't get any more out of us ;-)

Jens

[Retrofan]

Let me introduce myself: I'm an spanish guy that had a Commodore 64 as a dream to have around 27 years ago (I'm 41), and that had to stay with a 48k Spectrum. I bought a broken C64 last year as a replacement for my PC keyboard using the Keirah card, but I began to search in Google and started to search in english how to repair it, and I did. After some months I discovered the Amiga, which I never had. I have been only since march making progress with it (and my english). I've installed an internal Cd drive, 3 Cf configurations in different and large HD, modified standard PSU, Subway and a B1260. I don't have much time here, but the longer I stay, the more I love the Amiga scene.

I only tell all this to let you know it's a pleasure to know someone who is making so much for this great experience that the Amiga gives.

But... about the people like me that is waiting (won't ask for the Clone-A, and sorry for my knowledges about it, all I know is what I read) for so long time... How do the new Indivisions are going? They are now stopped for the accelerators, aren't they?

Thanks, and a pleasure.

[kipper2k]

Originally Posted by Retrofan

Now it's when I discover why I should have left more threads and posts here. Yesterday (7 months after I bought my first Amiga) I discovered some people weren't at A-org (and why). (I will stay there still, of course).

Today I have just left a Thread here (and A-org) of WTB an Indivision Aga: I will tell I'm waiting for it for several months (they were supossed to be for sale on september) and when I knew Individual Computers were into the new accelerators, I thought the new Indivisions for A1200 won't be for sale till around June.

One simple question: Must I wait for the new ones or must I go for a second hand one (if any want to give his opinion)?

EDIT: Well, I have to add I'll be buying one of the new accelerators when they'll be for sale too.

I have 3 of the A1200 indivision boards, i'll sell one to you but only for my cost which would be the cost of what i paid at Amigakit plus $40 customs and the shipping costs.

[Retrofan]

Ok, PM sent.

[frank_b]

Originally Posted by Schoenfeld

No, they are not. Only Indivision ECS contains a Denise. Indivision AGA does not contain a Lisa. The products are substantially different.



Clone-A development on the Amiga/Chipset side has been finished years ago. We're on the user interface, which is a ground breaking concept in FPGA computers. Don't pry, you won't get any more out of us ;-)

Jens

New Amiga with new features and you'll have my cash for sure. Good luck

[MarkONE]

A new "oldworld" amiga would be cool indeed!

[Fabie]

I hope the new flickerfixer for the A1200 will be smaller in size and left space to connect the hardisk otherwise I will not purchase it

also I don't like the indivision startup screen...there is a delay and I don't like it.
that startup screen must be removed

[Schoenfeld]

Originally Posted by Fabie

also I don't like the indivision startup screen...there is a delay and I don't like it.

There is no delay. As soon as Indivision detects any other output than "greyscale", the startup screen is disabled. Indivision does not have the power to delay booting of the computer.

Jens

[NovaCoder]

Hiya Jens,

A few ideas for your next (or next next) IndivisionAGA

Secure mounting:

To fix the 'wobble' you could use those silly HD cradle holes which are just waiting to have something stuck into them.

Better output:

Have you seen the graphics filters used by Mame/Scummvm/DosBox/WinUAE to enhance old VGA screens up to more modern displays standards?

Why not take the Amiga's native signal (eg 320x200 8bit) and the perform some realtime post-processing to bump it up to say 1024x768 32bit with a higher refresh. The good thing about this approach is that the Amiga would remain 100% compatible but everything would look much better

[desiv]

Just a q: re Grafitti emulation. What exactly does that bring an AGA machine?
I've found this:

Palette: 256 on-screen from a choice of 262,144 colours.
Screen Modes:

* 640x256
* 320x256
* 160x256
* 80x256
* (Interlacing supported in all modes)


But AGA has 256 colors already.

Is it just that it's faster because of the Chunky modes?
Will WB be faster? (Drivers)
Or just programs specifically written for it?

Just wondering...

desiv

[NovaCoder]

It's faster because you don't need your CPU to do C2P. The 256 color limitation isn't that much of a big deal because you're not going to be doing any more in AGA anyway.

WB won't be faster because it's Planar not chunky.

The games/demos would have to be specifically written to add Grafitti support and the only game I know that currently supports it is ADOOM.

[fishyfish]

Mame like filters ? That's crazy talk. If I wanted blur-o-vision Id just squint As for Grafitti Trapped2 also supports it (and possibly the prequel).

[Schoenfeld]

Games in lores would probably look fairly "blocky", so that kind of filter (at least on the X-axis) may indeed increase the gaming experience. For the Y-axis, we already have the scanline emulation, which seems to be quite popular (we get lots of eMails about that!). So yes, we'll think about an additional mode like that.

As for Graffiti, it's advantage under AGA is that the 256-colour hires screen is generated by a 16-colour S-Hires screen, which only uses 4 DMA slots, thus leaving the full 7MB/s access speed to chipmem. I doubt that a WB emulation using this mode is possible, but existing software like the Shapeshifter driver comes in handy.

Jens

[Nostromo]

Ok, this is a noob question, so don't shoot me ok

Most modern TFT monitors do not support 50hz, so getting a picture with indivision would be by using to force 60hz option which is not ideal as it results in uneven scrolling (at least that is what I read). Can a feature be added so Indivision doubles the output to 100hz so any monitor which support 100hz or more (many new ones do nowadays) can display picture?

Just an idea.

[Eny-]

Sorry if this has been asked before. What is the ETA of the new Flickerfixer? Thanks!

[Schoenfeld]

Originally Posted by everblue

Ok, this is a noob question, so don't shoot me ok

Most modern TFT monitors do not support 50hz, so getting a picture with indivision would be by using to force 60hz option which is not ideal as it results in uneven scrolling (at least that is what I read). Can a feature be added so Indivision doubles the output to 100hz so any monitor which support 100hz or more (many new ones do nowadays) can display picture?

Just an idea.

As 60hz is really producing bad tearing effects, Indivision uses 62.5Hz for the PAL output "forced over 60Hz" (as you call it). This still has a tearing effect, but it is not moving all over the screen.

100Hz is not supported by too many monitors, especially not TFTs. The next logical step would be to triple the pixel clock, resulting in 75Hz output for PAL. Indivision AGA MK2 will have enough memory performance to do that - and it has the exact same effect that you desire: Having the VBlanks synced.

You may not want to use that output on NTSC, as it would produce 90Hz output. The current Indivision turns an NTSC screen into 75Hz output if you're using the 1.25 mode, and we even get support requests because some monitors can't handle 75Hz. This is why the factory setting is now "60Hz for NTSC and 62.5Hz for PAL".

Jens

[Schoenfeld]

Originally Posted by Eny-

Sorry if this has been asked before. What is the ETA of the new Flickerfixer? Thanks!

It'll be next year.

Jens

[jmmijo]

I was hoping for HDMI support, but I doubt that could be done properly with the Amiga's output...

[Schoenfeld]

Originally Posted by jmmijo

I was hoping for HDMI support, but I doubt that could be done properly with the Amiga's output...

DVI and HDMI are the same protocol basis, it's just that HDMI has sound in the signals as well (through separate wires). That's why there are properly working DVI->HDMI adapters, which are simple wire-adapters. These will work without any problems on Indivision AGA MK2.

Jens

[slk486]

Originally Posted by jmmijo

I was hoping for HDMI support, but I doubt that could be done properly with the Amiga's output...

Just use a DVI-HDMI adapter
HDMI wouldn't be able to carry a DVI-A signal, so it's effectively ruled out.

Edit: Jens beat me to it

[Damion]

100Hz is not supported by too many monitors, especially not TFTs. The next logical step would be to triple the pixel clock, resulting in 75Hz output for PAL. Indivision AGA MK2 will have enough memory performance to do that - and it has the exact same effect that you desire: Having the VBlanks synced.

Awesome! I like to keep one Amiga connected to a CRT for certain games and demos, needless to say 50Hz on a 2000's era CRT (short phosphor persistence) is absolutely devastating on the eyes. 75Hz will be *much* more tolerable... looks like I can finally lug the ol' Eizo Diamondtron back out of the garage.

[roberthazelby]

Originally Posted by Schoenfeld

As 60hz is really producing bad tearing effects, Indivision uses 62.5Hz for the PAL output "forced over 60Hz" (as you call it). This still has a tearing effect, but it is not moving all over the screen.

Does this mean that scrolling games will be slightly 'chuggy' when using the new Indivision?

This is one reason why I've stopped emulating Amigas and have gone back to the real thing. I could get smooth scrolling, but only if I ran at 60hz. The problem then was the games ran too fast.

[slk486]

Originally Posted by roberthazelby

Does this mean that scrolling games will be slightly 'chuggy' when using the new Indivision?

Unfortunately yes. Unless you have a perfect 50 or multiply thereof, there will be jitter

[Zetr0]

@Jens

Firstly I really am excited with the Indivision Mk2, I read previously that the Mk2 will have a direct Chunky Display Buffer - have I read this correctly?

will this (possibly) provide an RTG mode bidirect of the AGA chipset - like the IndiECS (if I read Oliver A's post correctly)?

[alexh]

I heard the opposite though.... just rumours and speculation at this point.

[Schoenfeld]

We are NOT planning a framebuffer mode in Indivision AGA MK2. However, we will implement the "image hold" bit that Indivision ECS has introduced: This will allow the programmer to turn off bitmap DMA, making the 15khz RGB output of the Amiga all black. If the "image hold" bit is set in the flickerfixer, the picture will not be updated from the (now black) Lisa output.

This will allow full-resolution full-colour images at high (=flicker-free) vertical frequencies, but with lower update rates (like the 2024 hedley-monitor). The effect is that the average CPU access is a lot faster, so using a 256-colour WB is not all that slow.

This to-be-developed-HighGFX mode will still not be able to replace a gfx card, but it might be enough to reduce the pain that you're having becaue you don't own one ;-)

Jens

[Retrofan]

I've seen for example with MAME on my Amiga with B1260 (no Indivision) is umplayable without a graphic card, only some games can run on it. Will it be a little better, faster with the Indivision MKII?