Was anyone else disappointed with the A1200?

[Thorham]

@hammer: What does any of what you're writing have to do with what Amiga computers are?

Originally Posted by Gorf

It is also a very EAB exclusive point of view. This board is very focused on gaming - not only Amiga but retro gaming in general. Nothing wrong with that:
everything needs its place.
But one has to keep that in mind.
Other Boards and forums are more balanced or target a more application centered crowd.

That doesn't make hammer's claim any less silly.

[Gorf]

Originally Posted by sandruzzo

@Thorham

That's why DSP on Amiga doesn't make sense, but a better processor does! I think the real original sin was the lack of FastMem since A100/A500! Even a little 64kb would have been great!

I am with you on FastRAM. Especially since addition of FastRAM alone would roughly double the speed of the A1200. I thing there is wide consensus about that here in this thread. On this particular point this discussion really has reached a conclusion by now and we can move on.

By the way: the A1000 did have real FastRAM but this was used as WCS. But you could use it for your own code if you did not need the Kickstart ...

As for DSP vs. faster CPU
This is just a matter of price: to reach the same performance level you would have needed a 040, which would have been way more expensive than a 020+DSP solution. And a DSP would still give you some extra features like soft-modem and 16bit sound.

I really fail to see the disadvantage here, especially for an multimedia machine like the Amiga.

Would it be enough? Hard to say, but in lack of real or affordable alternatives in the early 90s, I would suggest it would have been a good idea to follow through on this approach for Commodore.

[Gorf]

Originally Posted by pixie

What an impressive document from Hayne for 1992!

Only about 5 years too late. It Commodore would have started development of this approach in 87, it might have shown some real fruits in the early 90s.
And it could have been a solid base throughout the 90s.

Good strategy and wonderful ideas. But sadly too late.
And without bashing Dave here: it was of course much easier to come up with that in 92 as it was more obvious to anyone working in the field. In 87 it would have been far more visionary.

[hammer]

Originally Posted by Gorf

This was not 1983 anymore. By 1991 customers were already used to the fact the computer technology is moving at a rapid pace and that you can get the newest and fastest machines with more features at a higher price.

It you would wait until the price comes down, you would only see a other newer and better product popping up at the high end and therefor wait forever...
In the 90 everybody knew this ...

In addition to that: the Osborn was only killed be the premature announcement of a non existing product - this is fundamentally different from actually releasing a next gen product with better features even if it is high-end-only at first.

1. In general, a PC's slow VGA doesn't break compatibility with faster VGA.

2. The PC's primary graphics subsystem is end-user upgradeable which can't be applied to the Amiga's non-partitioned primary graphics subsystem.

3. The PC is designed to be end-user upgradable when its primary graphics subsystem is partitioned. The PC can rapidly evolve while the Amiga has complications.

4. Microsoft established PC's RTG solution earlier than the Amiga and the hit-the-metal VGA standard is largely frozen.

5. Microsoft learns from Apple's Quickdraw (RTG solution) faster than Commodore.

6. Microsoft ported Doom by themselves for Windows 3.1/WinG/Win32S (WinDoom) and Windows 95/DirectDraw (Doom95).

As a buyer of GTX 980 Ti, GTX 1080 Ti, RTX 2080 Ti, RTX 3080 Ti and RTX 4090, I did not tolerate the clusterfuk with A3000's dead end for 256 colors gaming.
That's about a two-year interval for each GPU upgrade. IF every GPU upgrade has a hard linked with a full new PC build, that's a three to four-year interval for me i.e. a game console generation upgrade pace. Imagine if I threw the AM5 motherboard in the bin due to the hard link with the next Blackwell GPU upgrade.

Where's AA3000+ motherboard replacement for A3000, Mr Commodore? You don't understand PC's upgrade ideology.

[Gorf]

Originally Posted by hammer

1. In general....

Not a meaningful answer to my post.

[d4rk3lf]

Originally Posted by Thorham

@hammer: Again, none of what you wrote makes the Amiga a games system. Plenty of Amiga owners used their Amigas for other purposes. How many people used their SNES for word processing? Zero.

The Amiga being a game system is such a bizarre thing to claim on an Amiga forum where everyone and their cat knows you can do more than just play games on it.

Not even a half year passed from the time I got my Amiga, and I've already started to have fun with drawing on Deluxe Paint, and starting to animate some simple 2D animations.
Very soon I composed some music via Octamed, and installed Real 3D, and started creating first 3D models and animating them.
And working with these apps were equal fun (sometimes even more fun) like playing the games.
Later, this knowledge got me my first job at local TV station to do some graphics and animations.. and even now.. as a freelancer, I am working very similar job... all because of Amiga was such great computer to learn on it.

Amiga was so well rounded computer.

[hammer]

Originally Posted by Gorf

Not a meaningful answer to my post.

You don't understand PC's upgrade ideology.

[hammer]

Originally Posted by d4rk3lf

Not even a half year passed from the time I got my Amiga, and I've already started to have fun with drawing on Deluxe Paint, and starting to animate some simple 2D animations.
Very soon I composed some music via Octamed, and installed Real 3D, and started creating first 3D models and animating them.
And working with these apps were equal fun (sometimes even more fun) like playing the games.
Later, this knowledge got me my first job at local TV station to do some graphics and animations.. and even now.. as a freelancer, I am working very similar job... all because of Amiga was such great computer to learn on it.

Amiga was so well rounded computer.

I did that too for my school presentations which replaced the large cardboard presentation format. I lug my A3000 to school and reuse the school's PC VGA monitor and large CRT TV on a trolley. My school didn't have video projectors.

My 1990s PC and Amiga had full Imgine 3D software from magazine cover disks. Both PC and Amiga had full older version applications from magazine cover disks.
.
My school's art room has A2000s (being replaced by Macs), publishing has Macs and computer science (Borland Turbo C/Pascal, MS Basic) has PCs.

[TCD]

Originally Posted by hammer

As a buyer of GTX 980 Ti, GTX 1080 Ti, RTX 2080 Ti, RTX 3080 Ti and RTX 4090, I did not tolerate the clusterfuk with A3000's dead end for 256 colors gaming.

[PortuguesePilot]

I think that no-one denies the fact that the Amiga is a renowned home computer, from a time when home computing was in its 'golden age' (or 'adolescence', if we want to include PCs into it). A very well-rounded and versatile home computer that could do fun-stuff like the consoles and serious-stuff like the PCs with great and fast graphics and awesome sonic abilities. The best of both worlds and all of this without costing an arm and a leg.

BUT!!!!

It did start its inception as a project for a games console: the Lorraine.

All the gaming-goodies (the blitter, the copper, Paula, etc) that set the Amiga apart from all the other contemporary home computers - including the Atari ST - existed because initially the hardware that birthed the Amiga 1000 was meant to be "16 bit system" to compete with the 8-bit consoles.

So a once mighty well-rounded home computer that was far ahead any computer or console (in 1985) for gaming started its life as a project for a console.

Thankfully, the Lorraine it was never consolised due to the 1983 "Video Game Crash" and became a computer instead. And because of that move, here we are.

Point in case: yes, the Amiga is a well-rounded computer, but if people accuse it of having console origins, take it with pride - not offence.

[Dunny]

Originally Posted by TCD

Gotta say, that one got me too. If given the choice, I too would likely plump for an RTX 4090 system over an A3000, especially for modern games.

That said, you ain't gonna run many versions of Pacmania on it outside of WinUAE.

[Gorf]

Originally Posted by hammer

You don't understand PC's upgrade ideology.

Please don’t assume, what I do or do not understand.
This is not about my person or anyone else.

„Upgrade ideology“ was not part of my argument and is simply not related to the post you answered.
Non sequitur.

[TheLurker]

Originally Posted by Gorf

It is also a very EAB exclusive point of view. This board is very focused on gaming - not only Amiga but retro gaming in general. Nothing wrong with that:
everything needs its place.
But one has to keep that in mind.
Other Boards and forums are more balanced or target a more application centered crowd.

Not just EAB POV, but Europe/UK as well. I know US sales weren't a lot - 700,000 I've read - and ole hammer always brings up the Video Toaster niche deal in the walls of text. But the VT was released 5 years after the 1000. There were all kinds of graphic/multimedia applications available before the toaster. There's a reason InfoChannel/Scala originated on the Amiga.

And guess what? It doesn't matter if the primary use case was games in Europe. Commodore made the conscious choice to segment the platform into high-end/low-end.

I can't believe I've read this entire thread and I've never even seen an A1200 in person!

[Gorf]

Originally Posted by TheLurker

Not just EAB POV, but Europe/UK as well.

You can exclude Germany, Austria, Switzerland and probably some other European countries from that list. The Europe of the late 80s and early 90s was a very heterogen marketplace. The only common denominator is a very late general adoption of the PC as the one and only way forward.

There is a reason why the aftermarket Amigas and PPC boards or the Darco originated in Germany.

[TheLurker]

Originally Posted by Gorf

You can exclude Germany, Austria, Switzerland and probably some other European countries from that list. The Europe of the late 80s and early 90s was a very heterogen marketplace. The only common denominator is a very late general adoption of the PC as the one and only way forward.

There is a reason why the aftermarket Amigas and PPC boards or the Darco originated in Germany.

Point taken Gorf. Thanks!

[dreadnought]

Originally Posted by hammer

You don't understand PC's upgrade ideology.

You confuse the fact that A500/1200 and Ax000 lines were different things. The former were home computers (and so not really meant for extensive, modular upgrades), the latter more resembling PCs.

So, yes, overall the fact that eventually PCs were much more upgradeable and their components cheaper did kill off Amiga (and everybody else) but no, it doesn't mean it was a console, or that it had console-like design.

@PortugesePilot: hammer's angle is about modularity and expendability, and so the Lorraine thing doesn't really matter here. The most popular Amiga models were the same as every other non-expendable microcomputers. The x000 line was "burdened" with this: even though they were somewhat expendable, they were still tied to the microcomputer idea of upgrading, where you might boost some parts (eg buy memory extension for your ZX Spectrum) but overall next gen meant whole next unit purchase.

[hammer]

Originally Posted by dreadnought

You confuse the fact that A500/1200 and Ax000 lines were different things. The former were home computers (and so not really meant for extensive, modular upgrades), the latter more resembling PCs.

Wrong. Commodore's VIC-20 and C-64 can operate like a games console with plug-n-play game cartridge.

For most Amiga use cases, VIC20/C64's plug-n-play game cartridge was replaced by plug-n-play kick-the-OS game floppy disks. CD32 replaced plug-n-play game floppy disks with CD format.

Amiga 500/2000's graphics/audio subsystem wasn't partitioned and this behavior was inherited from the A1000 and Amiga Lorraine.

The A2000 is just an A500 with Buster and Zorro II slots. Despite A2500/020 and A2500/030 have the full 32-bit CPUs, it's still a dead end with a non-partitioned Amiga graphics/audio subsystem.

Originally Posted by dreadnought

So, yes, overall the fact that eventually PCs were much more upgradeable and their components cheaper did kill off Amiga (and everybody else) but no, it doesn't mean it was a console, or that it had console-like design.

Wrong. Commodore's VIC-20 and C-64 can operate like a games console with plug-n-play game cartridge.

For most Amiga use cases, VIC20/C64's plug-n-play game cartridge was replaced by plug-n-play kick-the-OS game disks.

Amiga 500/2000's graphics/audio subsystem wasn't partitioned and this behavior was inherited from the A1000 and Amiga Lorraine.

The A2000 is just an A500 with Buster and Zorro II slots. Despite A2500/020 and A2500/030 having full 32-bit CPUs, it's still a dead end with a non-partitioned Amiga graphics/audio subsystem.

Games are just a type of software category.

Modern game consoles like Xbox One have official support for Office 365 and a full web browser. Sony offered official Linux desktops for PS2 and PS3. Game consoles have a market expectation for easy "plug and play" regardless of the software being loaded on them. Similar AMD-based PC hardware as Xbox Series X or PS5 can have out-of-sync CPU and GPU partitioned upgrades. AMD-based Xbox Series X or PS5 SoC are internally partitioned between the CPU, NB, GPU, and DSP building blocks.

[hammer]

Originally Posted by Gorf

Please don’t assume, what I do or do not understand.
This is not about my person or anyone else.

„Upgrade ideology“ was not part of my argument and is simply not related to the post you answered.
Non sequitur.

You stated, "By 1991 customers were already used to the fact the computer technology is moving at a rapid pace and that you can get the newest and fastest machines with more features at a higher price."

This market expectation is under the context of PC clones, NOT the Amiga!

Due to PC clone wars and threats from RISC, the PC was advancing at a rapid pace. The PC was designed with out-of-sync video card and CPU upgrades.

Dave Haynie's Acutiator paper is an attempt to partition Amiga's graphics/audio subsystem so that either Amiga's custom gfx/audio side or CPU side can be upgraded out of sync with each other. CD32 is close to a low-cost Amiga AGA on a small board.

Acutiator allows for PA-RISC or 68060 CPU accelerators with classic Amiga chipset board (leads to A1200 on a chip) and/or Amiga Hombre chipset board. This enables the "big box" Amiga to be the evolving "big box" Amiga.

Amiga Hombre chipset board can be reused for the Amiga CD64 game console. Imagine, an A2000/3000-type box with a replaceable CD32 Amiga video/audio card i.e. upgrade to a CD64 Amiga video/audio card. Exploiting the mass-production from low-end Amiga for low-cost Amiga chipset upgrade cards for big box Amigas.

Mass-produced small board modularity enables RPi solutions to remain cheap. The innovation for RPi is the small board form factor, mass production, and common GPIO interface or common PCie (RPi Compute Module). Raspberry can't compete against the economies of scale titans from the PC world, hence Raspberry figured out a way to exploit mass production for common small compute modules with many use case add-ons. Amiga's PowerPC's ATX format factor approach was falling to PC's economies of scale advantage. Raspberry wasn't stupid enough to follow the PC's ATX format factor which has PC's economies of scale context.

With Acutiator, the evolution of Commodore was close to "Raspberry Pi" modularity. Acutiator is a good idea.

Commodore ran out of time and money.

[grelbfarlk]

Originally Posted by grelbfarlk

As a buyer of Merlin, Piccolo, Cybervision 64, Cybervision PPC, Video Toaster 2000 and 4000, I did tolerate the wholly upgradeable A3000's expandible options for 24-bit color.

As a current owner of an A4000, A4000, A4000, A4000, A4000, A4000, I can swap in my Merlin, a Piccolo, a Picasso II or IV or an EGS Spectrum or a Voodoo 3-3000 or a Radeon 9200 or a ZZ9000 and get more or less the exact same gaming support with some varying amounts of performance and features, speaking to the diverse expandibility of big box Amigas.

[dreadnought]

Originally Posted by hammer

Wrong. Commodore's VIC-20 and C-64 can operate like a games console with plug-n-play game cartridge.

You forgot the well-known consoles such as Atari 8-bit & MSX, but anyway...

You can connect a mouse to SNES and create gfx with Mario Paint. Ergo: SNES is a gfx workstation PC.
Playstation 1 uses CDs as media, and you could learn math with PK's Math Studio on it. Ergo: PS is a multimedia PC.

Do you want me to carry on, or do you see already how ridiculous your point is?