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Old 07 February 2019, 12:37   #721
gulliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kolla View Post
Which patches were/are not public?
But yes, it's rather beside the point, Cloanto had license to sell original 3.1 and authors of patches allowed Cloanto to use them. Most of all, the 3.X kickstarts are an offer to licensed custom ROMs.
That some developers share and allow you to use their own personal OS patches, does not make them legally valid to be distributed, integrated into the OS.

That is probably the reason the developers did only distribute patches and not the OS with them integrated in the first place.

And when you modify its functionality, its clearly no longer 3.1 anymore. Even Cloanto acknowledged that, and that is why they called it "3.x".

PS:
I do not remember all the patches that were not public, but just to name a few, you have the expansion.library patch and the one that increased the stack in various places. Remember they incorporated many of the SetPatch functionality into the rom (I believe they suggested at some point to even remove SetPatch alltogether). I dont see that functionality available publicly. But again, as we agreeded, it is not the point of the matter.
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Old 07 February 2019, 12:56   #722
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AmigaOS 3.1.4 withdrawn from market after Amiga

Quote:
Originally Posted by gulliver View Post
That some developers share and allow you to use their own personal OS patches, does not make them legally valid to be distributed, integrated into the OS.
Yes it does. Would it make any difference if Cloanto offered patches separately to original binaries, and used an installer script to apply them? That would be a rather semantical difference.

Quote:
That is probably the reason the developers did only distribute patches and not the OS with them integrated in the first place.
The "patchers" had not rights to original binaries - Cloanto always had.

PS: if you insist on certain examples to prove your point, then remember what those examples are. SetPatch is there for one reason, and one reason only - bugs in the kickstart.
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Old 07 February 2019, 13:10   #723
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SetPatch also enables AGA screenmodes, which are disabled by default for compatibility with old floppy-booting software.
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Old 07 February 2019, 13:11   #724
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Originally Posted by kolla View Post
Yes it does. [...]
Hum... Do you really think that everything that is available on aminet can be legally distributed integrated inside the OS ?
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Old 07 February 2019, 13:14   #725
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AmigaOS 3.1.4 withdrawn from market after Amiga

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Originally Posted by malko View Post
Hum... Do you really think that everything that is available on aminet can be legally distributed integrated inside the OS ?

No, and that was not what I said. Cloanto asked respective patch authers for permission.

Many popular/common patches are specifically not in OS 3.X bexause the authors did not permit it.
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Old 07 February 2019, 13:15   #726
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kolla View Post
The "patchers" had not rights to original binaries - Cloanto always had.
Always!? They arguably don't even have those rights now (Hyperion does), and of course back in the day it was Commodore, Escom, Gateway etc. that had the rights.
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Old 07 February 2019, 13:18   #727
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AmigaOS 3.1.4 withdrawn from market after Amiga

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Originally Posted by Minuous View Post
Always? They arguably don't even have such rights now, and of course back in the day it was Commodore, Escom, Gateway etc. that had the rights.

If you think Cloanto are distributing anything illegally, then please contact the right authorities. As far as I know, they always distributed Amiga OS legally.

Last edited by kolla; 07 February 2019 at 13:24.
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Old 07 February 2019, 13:19   #728
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Well, they do now, now that they own it.
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Old 07 February 2019, 13:29   #729
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Originally Posted by kolla View Post
Yes it does. Would it make any difference if Cloanto offered patches separately to original binaries, and used an installer script to apply them? That would be a rather semantical difference.
Licenses and contracts ARE about semantics. So that is not important for us, users, but it is EXTREMELY important when you conduct businesses.

Perhaps they could have solved this by selling only up to AmigaOS 3.1 and then pointing to a website where users could optionally at their own will/responsability download an installer with patches as you mentioned. Many companies sell products this way to avoid legal issues.

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The "patchers" had not rights to original binaries - Cloanto always had.
Partly true, but you forget that Cloanto´s rights to 3.1 were not unlimited. They were clearly restricted. And then, there is another matter: when you alter something, it is no longer the sum of its parts, but another thing. Cloanto had no rights to "another thing". Hyperion has exclusive rights to "another thing".

Quote:
Originally Posted by kolla View Post
PS: if you insist on certain examples to prove your point, then remember what those examples are. SetPatch is there for one reason, and one reason only - bugs in the kickstart.
I agree on your SetPatch´s point in part, but it really does not matter. Because it does not matter how good your intentions are, if you further develop something to in part fix it, then you ARE actually developing it. And that is the point. Bug fixing is part of development, and adding features too.

Last edited by gulliver; 07 February 2019 at 13:41.
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Old 07 February 2019, 13:34   #730
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If you think Cloanto are distributing anything illegally, then please contact the right authorities. As far as I know, they always distributed Amiga OS legally.
That's why there is a court case going on; it's because Cloanto has been acting illegally.
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Old 07 February 2019, 13:38   #731
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That's why there is a court case going on; it's because Cloanto has been acting illegally.

Really, is that your understanding??
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Old 07 February 2019, 13:38   #732
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Originally Posted by E-Penguin View Post
Well, they do now, now that they own it.
Are you making a reference to the CBM name ? Cloanto (it's a shortcut saying that, but anyway) does not own anything except a brand name.
Or did I misunderstood this article ?
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Old 07 February 2019, 13:41   #733
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@gulliver
Get yourself organized down there! (This is a movie reference)

Cloanto has been criticized for _not_ doing development, and now you call it development.
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Old 07 February 2019, 13:49   #734
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@gulliver
Get yourself organized down there! (This is a movie reference)

Cloanto has been criticized for _not_ doing development, and now you call it development.
I do not criticize them for that.
I am not accountable for other users opinions. Each can have their own.

I am pointing out what I believe are the strong and weak points of both parties involved in this lawsuit, and you decided to dig deeper on the 3.x thing, which is okay.

I only wish they would stop this nonsense and put their effort in getting us better products. And, as I said before, it could be very easy for both of them to make a profitable joint venture.
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Old 07 February 2019, 13:50   #735
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Regarding the documents I have read (available somewhere in this thread), if my memory serves me well, I follow @gulliver. Cloanto was allowed to distribute the OS but not to change the code of the OS in any way.
So if they have made a 3.x (was not aware of it since I do not follow them for long now), that is a modification of 3.1 (making new binaries) it's something they were not allowed to do.
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Old 07 February 2019, 13:57   #736
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Cloanto has been criticized for _not_ doing development, and now you call it development.
Both is true. Really simple. Unfortunately, without any benefit to the users.
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Old 07 February 2019, 14:09   #737
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Originally Posted by malko View Post
Are you making a reference to the CBM name ? Cloanto (it's a shortcut saying that, but anyway) does not own anything except a brand name.
Or did I misunderstood this article ?
Cloanto (or, some kind of supra-holding company) has bought the lot of the Amiga rights.

http://eab.abime.net/showpost.php?p=...&postcount=672
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Old 07 February 2019, 14:19   #738
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Originally Posted by E-Penguin View Post
Cloanto (or, some kind of supra-holding company) has bought the lot of the Amiga rights.
http://eab.abime.net/showpost.php?p=...&postcount=672
Thanks for the link (and also thanks n°6)
Will take the time to read it.
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Old 07 February 2019, 14:32   #739
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malko View Post
Regarding the documents I have read (available somewhere in this thread), if my memory serves me well, I follow @gulliver. Cloanto was allowed to distribute the OS but not to change the code of the OS in any way.
until now they did not change the code, only the binaries.

Quote:
So if they have made a 3.x (was not aware of it since I do not follow them for long now), that is a modification of 3.1 (making new binaries) it's something they were not allowed to do.
That would have been for Amiga Inc. to decide, but they did not object.
Now Cloanto has acquired all rights.
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Old 07 February 2019, 14:34   #740
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@gulliver
Get yourself organized down there! (This is a movie reference)
[ Show youtube player ]

2m04

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