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Old 02 January 2018, 15:18   #1
Foebane
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Cheatingto ergo sum? Foebane's thoughts on...

Mod edit:
19 out of 28 posts (...) moved out of the "Games with collision detection disabling cheat?" thread
http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=89939

A good opportunity to remind members that making several posts within minutes is not welcome. Either use the edit button when you can or use the multi-quote button when you need to answer to multiple other posts.

And in case someone didn't get the thread title:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cogito_ergo_sum

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Predseda View Post
Cheat... cheat... there are TONS of trainers by crackers.
I don't condone what crackers do, but at least they quit it and went on to produce something far more legal and far more creative: the Demoscene.

Last edited by lilalurl; 03 January 2018 at 05:59.
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Old 02 January 2018, 16:19   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foebane View Post
I don't condone what crackers do, but at least they quit it and went on to produce something far more legal and far more creative: the Demoscene.
Er, no they didn't. The cracking scene and demoscene ran side by side.

As for crackers..... I'm sure they care
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Old 02 January 2018, 19:54   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foebane View Post
I don't condone what crackers do
Then you will hopefully NEVER run any WHDLoad game on your machine. Or demo patches. Or any patches at all. As they are, surprise surprise, often made by people who master the art of cracking!

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Originally Posted by Foebane View Post
but at least they quit it and went on to produce something far more legal and far more creative: the Demoscene.
You apparently need some more history lessons!
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Old 02 January 2018, 20:31   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foebane View Post
I don't condone what crackers do, but at least they quit it and went on to produce something far more legal and far more creative: the Demoscene.
Not sure what relevance this has to the topic at hand?
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Old 02 January 2018, 20:39   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
Er, no they didn't. The cracking scene and demoscene ran side by side.

As for crackers..... I'm sure they care
I am reminded corrected. However, wasn't it that, together with piracy, that killed off the Amiga, apart from Commodore going bust?

I don't mind when the game programmers themselves add the cheat codes (like SOTB2's "Ten Pints" so that Roger Dean could play the game) but it's when crackers tamper with the fundamental code that I object to.

As for the OP, just tell your daughter that some games are harder than others and that practice makes perfect. And if the game has difficulty levels, tell her to start on the easiest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StingRay View Post
Then you will hopefully NEVER run any WHDLoad game on your machine.
Yeah, but they're not turned on by default, are they?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham Humphrey View Post
Not sure what relevance this has to the topic at hand?
The daughter is not getting the proper authentic experience of the games if cheating is resorted to, that's what. If she plays these games as if in God mode all the time, then she WILL get frustrated later on by games that haven't got cheats, if she learns that cheating is the only way to get anywhere in gaming.

Just my two cents. Don't bite my head off.

Last edited by DH; 03 January 2018 at 15:38. Reason: Merged back to back posts
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Old 02 January 2018, 21:48   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foebane View Post
I am reminded corrected. However, wasn't it that, together with piracy, that killed off the Amiga, apart from Commodore going bust?

I don't mind when the game programmers themselves add the cheat codes (like SOTB2's "Ten Pints" so that Roger Dean could play the game) but it's when crackers tamper with the fundamental code that I object to.

As for the OP, just tell your daughter that some games are harder than others and that practice makes perfect. And if the game has difficulty levels, tell her to start on the easiest.
Slightly off topic, but i'll respond one final time.

Piracy didn't kill off the Amiga: Commodore and the Sony Playstation did.

Commodore didn't ever fully exploit the Amiga to its fullest, hence why they were generally happy to tinker with the the Amiga with minor upgrades like from OCS to ECS, and 1 meg as standard.

Neither of these things were anything that was ever going to get anyone salivating over the Amiga.

Inspite of having developers clamoring to want to develop for the Amiga series, Commodore ignored pretty much everything developers wanted from the AGA series of Amigas.

Sure, an Amiga A1200 in 1992 was alright, but the A1000 in 1985 was leagues AHEAD of EVERYTHING else in the world..... simply being "alright" in 1992 wasn't good enough, AGA Amigas should have been at the forefront of computing, should have been leagues ahead of the PC as Amiga was in 1985, should have been something that worried the absolute shit out of Sega, Sony and Nintendo.

Commodore went bust not because people didn't want to buy Amigas, A1200 and CD32's were still selling right up until Commodore went down, but because they (i.e. Medhi Ali) was cutting back on development of the next generation of Amigas that should have been released instead of AGA, whilst some spurious patent prevented Commodore from selling over 100,000 CD32's which potentially could have kept them solvent long enough for Hombre to be realised and released.

The other issue is the Amiga was nearly 10 years old, and much as everyone loved it, it wasn't the "in" machine anymore, and people were looking for new challenges which arrived soon after in the form of the Sony Playstation.

The Sony Playstation killed the Amiga, Megadrive, SNES, Jaguar, Saturn..... every single format that was a money maker for developers, was changed by the arrival of the Playstation.

Development switched to C, which meant cross development of PC and Playstation games, the Amiga was never geared for development in C, because the nature of its design meant the best was wrung out of it when tightly optimised code was used, i.e. ASM.

Once Commodore went down, confidence in the Amiga brand vanished. Developers walked, owners walked.

Piracy no doubt had some effect, but its a known fact that because of the ease of getting hold of pirated software lead to increased Amiga sales, which then lead to more originals bought to go with those Amigas.

If piracy was such a killer toward the Amiga, why was it STILL being catered for in 1994-95 by some of the big software companies like Psygnosis and Electronic Arts?

The Atari ST had long since been abandoned, the Amiga was still getting top name titles alongside the Megadrive and SNES.

You don't do that with a system that isn't returning a profit on your investment.
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Old 02 January 2018, 22:03   #7
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Thank you for the history lesson, Galahad.
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Old 03 January 2018, 00:51   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foebane View Post
Yeah, but they're not turned on by default, are they?
You are missing StingRay's point that WHDLoad installs are done by crackers.
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Old 03 January 2018, 01:52   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by demoniac View Post
You are missing StingRay's point that WHDLoad installs are done by crackers.
I know that the original floppy disk-based games have to be converted to HDD format and that requires some recoding, and I don't mind if they put in OPTIONAL cheats and trainers, but I really don't like it if they change the fundamental code of the game. Also, if they alter the title credits to replace those of the original programmers, but I suppose it's not so bad if they stick their handles into the high-score tables, as a mark of their handiwork.

This is just how I feel about the very grey area of cracking, and I'm sure that the original programmers would agree with me.
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Old 03 January 2018, 02:06   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foebane View Post
I know that the original floppy disk-based games have to be converted to HDD format and that requires some recoding
"Some recoding" and CRACKING! Hence you should delete any and all WHDLoad patches from your HD!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Foebane View Post
but I really don't like it if they change the fundamental code of the game.
I can just repeat myself. Delete any and all WHDLoad patches you are using. As more often than not these patches change the game code considerably!

I like how black and white your world is...
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Old 03 January 2018, 02:12   #11
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I deleted the WHDLoad versions of Demoscene prods I had, but with games, I'm willing to go for modified code, but NOT for cheating and ruining the playability experience of games. I just prefer WHDLoad for games.
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Old 03 January 2018, 02:24   #12
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That sounds completely different and is something I can easily accept. And as for modified demo code, remember this thread on Pouet, Gift was fixed for you (by altering quite a bit of code of the original intro) by one of these bad, bad crackers... *cough*.
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Old 03 January 2018, 02:40   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foebane View Post
I deleted the WHDLoad versions of Demoscene prods I had, but with games, I'm willing to go for modified code, but NOT for cheating and ruining the playability experience of games. I just prefer WHDLoad for games.
I'm utterly perplexed by your whole attitude toward trainers.

If you don't want to use a trainer, simply don't use it, or are you saying they are too much of a temptation and YOU simply don't have the will power to not use them?

The majority of trainers are set default to do nothing, you normally have to have interaction with them to get them to train a game.

You have no choice but to accept modified code for games, because a huge amount of them simply can't work off hard drive or work on AGA machines full stop.

The mind boggles that this is an issue AT ALL
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Old 03 January 2018, 02:45   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foebane View Post
I know that the original floppy disk-based games have to be converted to HDD format and that requires some recoding, and I don't mind if they put in OPTIONAL cheats and trainers, but I really don't like it if they change the fundamental code of the game. Also, if they alter the title credits to replace those of the original programmers, but I suppose it's not so bad if they stick their handles into the high-score tables, as a mark of their handiwork.

This is just how I feel about the very grey area of cracking, and I'm sure that the original programmers would agree with me.
Go buy originals then..... quite simply, its down to YOUR willpower whether you accept cracked copies. If you don't like them, go buy them.

None of the WHDLoad installers change fundamental code of a game (i.e. what makes it a game), they simply fix the problems, trainers are usually used because the slave author has used a trainer to ensure that there are no further problems with the game, and thus opt to let the person using the install have it as an option.

I don't think you fully appreciate what it takes to get some games from floppy to hard drive.

Some of them have put in literal DAYS on a game to ensure its 100% cracked so the end user doesn't have any problems, and they do so for FREE.

Getting a little tired of the constant bitching to be honest.
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Old 03 January 2018, 02:46   #15
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Originally Posted by StingRay View Post
That sounds completely different and is something I can easily accept. And as for modified demo code, remember this thread on Pouet, Gift was fixed for you (by altering quite a bit of code of the original intro) by one of these bad, bad crackers... *cough*.
I remember that, and I appreciate the intro working for everyone, now. I'm just wary of Pouet.net lately, as I have been labelled a "help vampire" and I didn't know that I was such a nuisance for asking so many questions. I also think I pissed off a lot of people by saying that "Google is overrated" and that let to Gargaj threatening me with a ban if I asked any more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
I'm utterly perplexed by your whole attitude toward trainers.

If you don't want to use a trainer, simply don't use it, or are you saying they are too much of a temptation and YOU simply don't have the will power to not use them?

The majority of trainers are set default to do nothing, you normally have to have interaction with them to get them to train a game.
I have never used a trainer in my life, I always try to play the game as intended, but if I can't get very far, I don't use a trainer. I'm not even sure how they work.

Quote:
You have no choice but to accept modified code for games, because a huge amount of them simply can't work off hard drive or work on AGA machines full stop.
I know they require heavy modification, that's not what bothers me, only if the games behave the same after modification for WHDLoad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
None of the WHDLoad installers change fundamental code of a game (i.e. what makes it a game), they simply fix the problems, trainers are usually used because the slave author has used a trainer to ensure that there are no further problems with the game, and thus opt to let the person using the install have it as an option.

I don't think you fully appreciate what it takes to get some games from floppy to hard drive.

Some of them have put in literal DAYS on a game to ensure its 100% cracked so the end user doesn't have any problems, and they do so for FREE.
I had no idea it was so involved. I will look up examples of ADF > WHDLoad case studies when I can.

Last edited by DH; 03 January 2018 at 15:38. Reason: Merged back to back posts
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Old 03 January 2018, 15:35   #16
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Can I remind you Foebane that back to back posts, certainly within 1hr of each other, are not welcome on EAB.

Please, as suggested before, edit your posts, if you want to quote more than one members posts, please also use the multi-quote by clicking the smaller quote button with the " & +, on posts to be quoted and then finally clicking the Quote button on the final post to be quoted to enter the message panel.
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Old 03 January 2018, 15:49   #17
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Will do. Sorry.
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Old 03 January 2018, 17:06   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foebane View Post
I remember that, and I appreciate the intro working for everyone, now.
And now guess why I could fix this intro? Because I've been cracking games in the past which taught me quite a lot about how code works in general. Without this knowledge I would not have been able to fix this intro for you!
The world is not just black and white, I can understand you don't like cracked games, no problem with that. But there are always 2 points of view (to use an old Dual Crew slogan).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Foebane View Post
I'm just wary of Pouet.net lately, as I have been labelled a "help vampire" and I didn't know that I was such a nuisance for asking so many questions. I also think I pissed off a lot of people by saying that "Google is overrated" and that let to Gargaj threatening me with a ban if I asked any more.
It's not how many questions you ask, it's HOW you do it and your behaviour in general. I know Gargaj personally and he doesn't ever ban anyone without a good reason. And lots of people are indeed at least annoyed by your behaviour.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Foebane View Post
I have never used a trainer in my life, I always try to play the game as intended, but if I can't get very far, I don't use a trainer. I'm not even sure how they work.
Instructions which for example change the number of lives are disabled which in turn gives you unlimited lives.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Foebane View Post
I had no idea it was so involved. I will look up examples of ADF > WHDLoad case studies when I can.
You need to look at the original games (which often can't be converted to ADF due to the protection).
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Old 03 January 2018, 17:32   #19
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It's not how many questions you ask, it's HOW you do it and your behaviour in general. I know Gargaj personally and he doesn't ever ban anyone without a good reason. And lots of people are indeed at least annoyed by your behaviour.
How do I come across to people there? Rude? Or worse?
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Old 04 January 2018, 16:17   #20
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Sorry, Stingray and Galahad, among other wonderful Scene prodders, I didn't mean to bash your creative sides, but I see you lot more as programmers more than crackers. Hackers, maybe too, like John Carmack who proudly calls himself one.
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