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Old 13 April 2016, 17:57   #781
demolition
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Over my dead body.
I'm not saying they should be from my perspective either, but using the environment as a reason for why computers should be made to last forever does not hold water.
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Old 13 April 2016, 18:56   #782
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Even nowadays, computer equipment is only designed to last around 10 years - anything more is a bonus. Commodore never intended their Amigas to last this long. Think in PC terms: why would Compaq think that someone would still be using one of their 386 PCs from 1992? That's bad forecasting from the company's standpoint - they should be planning to sell replacements to that customer within 10 years, and Commodore were no different. I'm sure they didn't intend the Amiga 1200 to be the last "cheap" Amiga they made, they would've wanted to sell all A1200 users an A1400 with AAA chips or whatever 5 years later.

That, combined with using the cheapest parts they could get away with (again, no different from most electronics today), and the early nature of the SMT components, all means that the capacitors in Amiga 600s, 1200s, 4000s and CD32s are all either leaking or not too far from leaking, and the longer they've spent in storage or not being used, the more likely they are to leak.
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Old 13 April 2016, 19:07   #783
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Old Amigas are definitely not good for Earth in any way, only for our fun and games. Seen from an environment perspective, all Amigas should be recycled and made into new technology.
Go away hippie
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Old 13 April 2016, 20:35   #784
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I mean, if you end up having an OS bug in the ROM how will you patch that? The PC you are typing on has a BIOS ROM but no DIR command either..
The PC i'm typing on doesn't have its GUI Window system in ROM, either, but Amiga does.
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Old 13 April 2016, 21:15   #785
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The PC i'm typing on doesn't have its GUI Window system in ROM, either, but Amiga does.
Atari ST also had its whole TOS with a full graphic user interface on a ROM chip, hardly patchable either

Last edited by jizmo; 13 April 2016 at 21:40.
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Old 13 April 2016, 21:46   #786
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There's a bunch of commands in ROM at least in OS 2.x and up:

alias, ask, cd, echo, else, endcli, endif, endshell, endskip, failat, fault, get, getenv, if, lab, newcli, newshell, path, prompt, quit, resident, run, set, setenev, skip, stck, unalias, unset, unsetenv, why

Are they the best ones? Maybe not.
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Old 13 April 2016, 23:30   #787
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Atari ST also had its whole TOS with a full graphic user interface on a ROM chip, hardly patchable either


I don't think any amount of patching could fix tos... (Vomit)
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Old 14 April 2016, 00:04   #788
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I don't think it is, but I'm pretty sure that with rom 3.x moving in directory structure is now supported so that 'cd <directory>' works and '/' takes you back. In 1.x these don't work without said commands on disk.
Indeed they are. I'm quite surprised that there ever was a "CD" command in a file since moving in a directory seems like a rather shell-specific function to me, just like the commands Akira listed:
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alias, ask, cd, echo, else, endcli, endif, endshell, endskip, failat, fault, get, getenv, if, lab, newcli, newshell, path, prompt, quit, resident, run, set, setenev, skip, stck, unalias, unset, unsetenv, why
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Old 14 April 2016, 00:06   #789
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Keeping old computers around for too long is bad for Earth since the efficiency of new models quickly increases. Old Amigas are definitely not good for Earth in any way, only for our fun and games. Seen from an environment perspective, all Amigas should be recycled and made into new technology.
My Amiga doesn't use a tenth of my PC's power to do the same tasks.
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Old 14 April 2016, 00:46   #790
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Indeed they are. I'm quite surprised that there ever was a "CD" command in a file since moving in a directory seems like a rather shell-specific function to me, just like the commands Akira listed:
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There's a bunch of commands in ROM at least in OS 2.x and up: alias, ask, cd, echo, else, endcli, endif, endshell, endskip, failat, fault, get, getenv, if, lab, newcli, newshell, path, prompt, quit, resident, run, set, setenev, skip, stck, unalias, unset, unsetenv, why
This just makes leaving out a basic command like 'DIR' even more puzzling if it apparently wasn't a question of lacking available space in the ROM chip itself
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Old 14 April 2016, 10:41   #791
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My Amiga doesn't use a tenth of my PC's power to do the same tasks.
A Raspberry Pi 3 B is surely much more powerful than any Amiga and still uses less than 3W in full loads. For your basic word processing, Youtube-viewing, Facebook-munching user, an RPi3 is powerful enough. I don't think any Amiga can properly handle Youtube and Facebook.
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Old 14 April 2016, 11:06   #792
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My Amiga doesn't use a tenth of my PC's power to do the same tasks.
If you are talking about compute power, you are right.. If you are talking about electric power, you couldn't be more wrong
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Old 14 April 2016, 14:07   #793
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This just makes leaving out a basic command like 'DIR' even more puzzling if it apparently wasn't a question of lacking available space in the ROM chip itself
Not really surprising if you look at it. The list is very useful for accelerating the execution of startup-sequences, but not very useful for interactive shell use, so it seems they decided to invest ROM space in the startup-sequence use case. :-)
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Old 14 April 2016, 14:55   #794
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Not really surprising if you look at it. The list is very useful for accelerating the execution of startup-sequences, but not very useful for interactive shell use, so it seems they decided to invest ROM space in the startup-sequence use case. :-)
I think we have a winner.

The resident command list does make sense from startup-sequence's point of view. So in 1.x the dummy command prompt with no resident commands was due to running out of space and from thereon it was a matter of priority to booting to Workbench as quickly as possible. I'm good with that.
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Old 14 April 2016, 15:25   #795
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And if you think a bit further then you will notice that most of the resident commands are used in general scripts (e.g. IF, ENDIF, LAB, ...). It wouldn`t make sense holding those commands on disk. They might loaded/executed several times what would result in a very slow execution. DIR isn`t used in scripts (at least very seldom). So, with limited ROM space you have to decide what must be in and what not.

Most (all?) commands can be made resident if the user like. Of course it isn`t the same as having it in ROM.
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Old 14 April 2016, 17:22   #796
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I had the question what country the Amiga originates from, when i was 13 years old i thought it was German because my Amiga was "Made in Germany"
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Old 14 April 2016, 18:04   #797
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This just makes leaving out a basic command like 'DIR' even more puzzling if it apparently wasn't a question of lacking available space in the ROM chip itself
Is CD needed? I never tried on a script, but on the shell, if you type a dir name, the computer CDs to it. No need for the CD command. But maybe it would not work on a script. Never tried.

If it isn't needed, then freeing up that space and putting DIR in it would be good, or LIST. List was useful for scripts.
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Old 14 April 2016, 19:13   #798
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CD is not needed on 2.0+.
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Old 14 April 2016, 20:43   #799
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Atari ST also had its whole TOS with a full graphic user interface on a ROM chip, hardly patchable either
well in a sort-of way Amiga does too, all you need is the LoadWB command to get a basic workbench environment up, which is just a few Kb... also this is in the startup-sequence (obviously), but not in the ROM. It would have been really neat and useful to be able to get to a simple workbench without having to boot any disk. I've suggested this for custom ROMs before.
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Old 15 April 2016, 01:50   #800
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Is CD needed? I never tried on a script, but on the shell, if you type a dir name, the computer CDs to it. No need for the CD command. But maybe it would not work on a script. Never tried.

If it isn't needed, then freeing up that space and putting DIR in it would be good, or LIST. List was useful for scripts.
Yeah, like patrik said there's no need to enter 'CD' to enter a directory, but I think the CD command is still being used below the hood. If this is the case, exchanging CD to Dir command would end up a kind of crippled system where you can get the directory of the disk but not enter any of the directories.

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well in a sort-of way Amiga does too, all you need is the LoadWB command to get a basic workbench environment up, which is just a few Kb... also this is in the startup-sequence (obviously), but not in the ROM. It would have been really neat and useful to be able to get to a simple workbench without having to boot any disk
I'm with you there. The number of times I could've used a way to quickly launch the Workbench..

Last edited by jizmo; 15 April 2016 at 02:46.
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