Franken-A3640-060 project-Anybody Game?

[aperez]

I have a handful of EC060's@50MHz and would like to experiment with making some inexpensive daughterboards which socket into an A3640, and have a Socket 3 ZIF for an 060.

Anybody up for some serious hacking? PM me, if so. We can discuss specifics either here, off-line, or in real-time.

[source]

Sounds like an excellent project. I woyld like to help, but I have no clue on how to even start on that mod.

[Hewitson]

Anyone have any idea how the firmware could be modified to work with an 060? If so, theres a number of people on here (including me) that would be capable of designing such a thing.

[Zetr0]

I did some research in this area my friends -

You will need to generate a few more signals - and arbitrated the bus a little differently - Here is some research I did - some of its from memory so please take it as unfinished-unconfimred

Extra Signals of the 060

PIN		LOC	GROUP			SIGNAL

BS0		Q4				BYTE SELECT LINE - D31 > D24
BS1		Q5				BYTE SELECT LINE - D23 > D16
BS2		Q6				BYTE SELECT LINE - D15 > D08
BS3		Q7				BYTE SELECT LINE - D07 > D00
CLKEN		Q8				DEFINES THE SPEED OF THE BUS CLOCK TO BE FULL 1/2 OR 1/4 OF THE CPU CLOCK
EVSS		Q9	OUTPUT DRIVER		GROUND
EVDD		Q10	OUTPUT DRIVER		+VE
BGR		Q11				QUALIFIES [BG] BY INDICATING THE DEGREE OF NESCESSITY FOR RELINQUISH BUS OWNERSHIP
TRA		Q12				INDICATES A BUS CYCLE RERUN IS NEEDED
PST4		Q13				INDICATES INTERNAL PROCESSOR STATUS
SAS		Q14				START TERMINATION ACKNOLWEDGE SIGNAL SAMPLING
BTT		Q15				INDICATES 060 HAS RELINQUISH BUS TO EXT ARBITERS NEG. OF BG
SNOOP*		P15				
EVDD		N15	OUTPUT DRIVER		+VE
THERM1*		M15				PROVIDES THERMAL SENSING	
THERM0*		L15				PROVIDES THERMAL SENSING 
CLA		K15				CYCLE LONG-WORD ADDRESS
EVDD		J15	OUTPUT DRIVER		+VE
IVSS		H15	INT LOGIC		GROUND
EVDD		G15	OUTPUT DRIVER		+VE
IVSS		F15	INT LOGIC		GROUND
IVDD		E15	INT LOGIC		+VE
EVDD		D15	OUTPUT DRIVER		+VE
EVDD		D12	OUTPUT DRIVER		+VE
EVDD		D10	OUTPUT DRIVER		+VE
EVDD		D8	OUTPUT DRIVER		+VE
EVDD		E4	OUTPUT DRIVER		+VE
EVSS		F4				GROUND
EVDD		G4	OUTPUT DRIVER		+VE		
IVSS		H4	INT LOGIC		GROUND
EVDD		J4				+VE
EVDD		L4				+VE
EVDD		P4	OUTPUT DRIVER		+VE

some more meaningful text on some of those less than obvious signals -


BS3 - BS0 (BYTE SELECT LINE(S)):

These three-state outputs indicate which bytes within a long-word transfer are being selected and which bytes of the data bus will be used for the transfer. BS0 refers to D31– D24, BS1 refers to D23–D16, BS2 refers to D15–D8, and BS3 refers to D7–D0. These signals are generated to provide byte data select signals which are decoded from the SIZx, A1, and A0 signals. These signals are placed in a high-impedance state when the MC68060 is not the bus master.


SAS (START TERMINATION ACKNOLWEDGE SIGNAL SAMPLING):

This three-state output is asserted for one clock-enabled clock period to indicate that the MC68060 will begin sampling TA, TEA, TRA, TBI, TCI, AVEC, and spurious interrupt indication on the next rising edge of the clock-enabled clock. SAS is negated at all other times while the MC68060 is the bus master. When the MC68060 relinquishes the bus, SAS is driven negated for one clock-enabled clock period and then three-stated one clock-enabled clock period after the address bus is idled. When the MC68060 newly gains bus ownership and immediately starts a bus cycle with the assertion of TS, SAS remains three-stated until the clock-enabled clock period after TS is asserted.


CLA (CYCLE LONG-WORD ADDRESS):

This active-low input signal controls the operation of A3 and A2 during bus cycles. Following each clock-enabled clock edge in which CLA is asserted, the long-word address for each of the four transfers encoded on A3 and A2 will increment in a circular wraparound fashion. If CLA is negated during a clock-enabled clock edge, the values on A3 and A2 will not change. It is not necessary to synchronize CLA with TA.



Now, at the time I came to the conclusion that the CBM A3640 logic does kinda get-in the way a bit - and hence felt (at the time) it would be better just to start from scratch... alas that was way back when and UNI ate all my time up and this little idea got shelved.

Oli HD (a member here) was a big help and inspiration to me from some of his investigations - including his design for a PC100 128MB+ ram module

I haven't seen Oli on in awhile, I do hope he is keeping well =)

[alexh]

Pretty sure it is not practical to use the A3640 with an 060. As Zetro says, the logic on the A3640 gets in the way of the logic you'd need for 060. Not to mention there is no voltage regulator on the A3640 or clock divider or RAM controller. Before you know it you will have made a new card.

The only practical upgrades for A3640 cards would have to be 040 based. Should be able to gleam information directly from the implementations of the Quaddoubler and Xcalibur.

I know that doesn't help you with your EC060's but it is the hard plain facts.

[aperez]

Alexh,

I completely agree that the A3640 logic would just get in the way. I wasn't proposing that we re-use the logic on the A3640, necessarily. They're simple GAL22V10's, and I'd propose bypassing and/or removing them and patching through the signals where needed.

Since there's no practical way to make a replacement A3K/A4K CPU riser card these days due to the lack of part availability for the CPU connector, the "you might as well make a new card" argument is not an argument I feel holds much water, these days.

[alexh]

You say my argument is invalid. I suggest that your idea is invalid. It is not practical nor affordable or stable to make 060 board which piggybacks to an A3640. It is one of those "nice ideas" which when you get down to the nitty gritty just doesn't work.

I mean who is going to re-work their A3640 in preparation? Not everyone (i.e. read very low volumes, very high NRE costs, very high prices).

Perhaps a trade in a service whereby the vendor of new 060 cards reclaimed the CPU connector from traded in old A3640 boards?

Reclaiming the CPU connector for fitting to a new board _is_ practical. Probably still not affordable (nor legal in todays RoHS world) but practical non the less

[Zetr0]

guys guys!! your all to awesome to start diggin trenches in the sand!!!

I really like the idea of an 060 upgrade to the A3640 - something like the XCalibur - practicality is another thing to work on later.


Insofar as the A4000/3000 CPU connectors with a 100 MOQ you are looking at about $8 a piece - so realistically its still possible to make another card from scratch - we on EAB did try an organize a group buy of these but there just wasn't enough of use to make it financially viable.

One of the biggest issues we will face - as alexh has mentioned - the depreciation of components and RoHS compliancy.

still it shouldn't stop us throwing ideas out there eh?

[aperez]

Zetr0, I don't see myself as drawing lines in the sand at all.

I have no RoHS compliance issues to contend with, here in the states. Also, IANAL, but I believe there may be exceptions to RoHS for hobbyists. If there are not, there definitely should be.

I don't care if I sell non-RoHS compliant cards to European nations where RoHS is the law of the land. Alexh, the issue you bring up Re: RoHS compliance is all the more reason why retroproducts can be more-legitimately made and sold in the USA. I have lots (many many hundred) of non-RoHS New Old Stock FPGA's, and I intend to use them. I'm happy to sell boards in sub-1000 quantities to folks who live in countries with well-intentioned yet still draconian electronics waste laws.

[aperez]

Zetr0, X-calibur was actually what provided the inspiration for this idea. I agree that, logistically, it would be much more straightforward to not use an 060. Even a re-imagining of the X-calibur, perhaps with on-board ethernet, would be an interesting product. It's not as though there are lots of X-caliburs flying about these days.

[Zetr0]

@aperez

In a Nutshell -

The “RoHS Regulations” are implementations EU Directive 2002/95 which bans the placing on the EU market of new electrical and electronic equipment containing more than agreed levels of lead, cadmium, mercury, hexavalent chromium, polybrominated biphenyl (PBB) and polybrominated diphenyl ether (PBDE) flame retardants.

basically anything NEW released on the market is under RoHS restriction within the UK and europe..

what if the item was - second hand? LOL anyway there are some exemptions.


(from the BERR overview)

4. Electrical and electronic equipment that is part of another type of equipment
The WEEE Directive excludes EEE that is part of another type of equipment that does not fall within the scope of the Directive. On the basis that EEE under RoHS is defined in identical terms, it is the view of BERR and the Commission’s Legal Services that such an exclusion extends to EEE under the RoHS Directive and, consequently, to the RoHS Regulations. Examples of such equipment would be lighting or entertainment equipment for use in vehicles, trains or aircraft. This type of equipment would be excluded as it is designed to be part of a product that falls outside the scope of the Directive.

Equipment that is part of another type of equipment or system is considered to be outside the scope of the Directive where it does not have a direct function outside the other item of equipment or system and that other item of equipment or system is itself outside the scope of the Directive.

Equipment may also be part of a fixed installation. A “fixed installation” may be a combination of several pieces of equipment, systems, products and/or components (or parts) assembled and/or erected by a professional assembler or installer at a given place to operate together in an expected environment and to perform a specific task, but not intended to be placed on the market as a single functional or commercial unit.

In such a case, the elements of a system that are not discernible EEE products in their own right or that do not have a direct function away from the installation are excluded from the scope of the Regulations.

16. The RoHS Regulations do not apply: -

• To large-scale stationary industrial tools. (This is a machine or system, consisting of a combination of equipment, systems, products and/or components installed by professionals, each of which is designed, manufactured and intended to be used only in fixed industrial applications.)

• To spare parts for the repair of EEE that was placed on the market before 1 July 2006. It should be noted that, following discussions in the TAC, the European Commission and Member States have agreed that this exemption extends to parts that expand the capacity of and/or upgrade EEE placed on the market before that date provided the EEE concerned is not put on the market as a new product.

• To the reuse of EEE that was placed on the EU market before 1 July 2006.

In regards withn europe theres a little play-room and jiggling can be done.... should devices be imported by private citizens then all the government will care about is their VAT duty.


I have just read the BERR flow chart


If you are selling spare parts for the capacity of expansion or upgrade of EEE (electrical and electronic equipment) placed on the market before 1 July 2006*
- not covered by RoHS


So does this mean that by making spare parts or upgrades for electrical equipement that was put on the market before 2006 is covered as an exemption to the RoHS?

[aperez]

Yep, I think there's probably sufficient wiggle-room here. Additionally, it's worth pointing out that the *intent* of something like RoHS is to enforce adherence to reasonably eco-friendly manufacturing by large-scale, typically-multinational, electronics manufacturers.

The intent of a directive such as RoHS is not to squash innovation. I don't ever plan on having offices in the EU, and I don't mind shipping a product which would almost never be likely to approach anything beyond the high-hundreds, quantity-wise, into the EU. That said, I'm fully cognizant that RoHS compliance is a reality, and in the cases where it can be adhered to without issue, I'm all for doing so.

[matthey]

If new is a problem with regulations then simply sell them only in the states. People will buy them and sell them used to people out side of the states. If a product is tested long enough it's used right? Sell it as used. Used doesn't stop Amiga users from paying insane prices on E-bay does it?

Desoldering and reusing the CPU connector also sounds like a good idea. A lot of Amiga people have at least 1 dead accelerator by now. Maybe using a "used" part would keep the product from being "new". It would be a upgraded used part .

[JuvUK]

hi,
well for what it's worth, i think it's a great idea and i would buy/exchange/upgrade whatever in a heartbeat!!
i'm sorry to say i have no ability to help with this project but i most certainly would buy one.

good luck with this guys, i hope something is possible as it would rock


cheers, JuvUK

[Don_Adan]

Maybe this link can be useful for you:
http://www.emulation.com/catalog/off...rade_motorola/

[JuvUK]

Originally Posted by Don_Adan

Maybe this link can be useful for you:
http://www.emulation.com/catalog/off...rade_motorola/

wwwhhhoooaaaa!!! what's this thing? has anyone tried one? is it miggy compatible?

[alexh]

Originally Posted by JuvUK

well for what it's worth, i think it's a great idea and i would buy/exchange/upgrade whatever in a heartbeat!!

Even if it was as expensive as a second hand Apollo 4060?

Originally Posted by Don_Adan

http://www.emulation.com/catalog/off...rade_motorola/

Hmmm, interesting. Without local FastRAM your 060 would be very much crippled but still....

[JuvUK]

yes it is expensive, but maybe group buy could lower the price?
i have contacted the UK seller about pricing and compatibility

[Zetr0]

@Juv

let me know how that goes!

I would be intersting to see if some A1200 040 cards could be upgraded with this item, as well as some cards like the Apollo 4040 ?

I wonder if there will be any firmware issues.


[additional]

I thought I would pull this thread in as it referes to the CPU connectors from KEL - http://www.kel.jp/english/index.html

the connector part numbers are 8807 and 8817 for male and female components I believe

[aperez]

I heard back from KEL USA today.