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Old 23 February 2010, 13:08   #85
Falcon Flight
evicted psycho
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: evictee paradise
Posts: 166
Originally Posted by Dan Locke View Post
Yeah. Turrican II is probably my favorite C64 game, actually. And I said "relatively small" - there are rather large areas that are completely devoid of enemies, and when enemies do appear, they don't come close to swamping the player like the enemies in Gunstar Heroes do.
Actually, this is inaccurate. You can be swamped by enemies very quickly in Turrican 2 if you don't wave your gun around a fair bit. In fact, in Turrican 2 you can die much quicker than in Gunstar Heroes by not shooting shit up, because the enemies appear acutely and must be dealt with immediately, whereas in Gunstar Heroes there's just this chronic and seemingly passive swarm.

It all comes down to the pure vs. hybrid thing. To spell it out, to spoon feed you: Turrican 2 = hybrid of run n gun/platformer, Gunstar Heroes = pure run n gun.

My point is that you stay alive in order to get further into the levels and explore them. In Gunstar Heroes, the primary focus is on shooting the ever-reappearing enemies and moving forwards when you can. By your logic, I might as well say that Sonic the Hedgehog's primary emphasis is on bumping into things while airborne.
What nonsense; please see above. You shoot shit up, jump a bit, shoot, jump a bit, shoot, fight the boss, etc. The game is just a hybrid; nothing more , nothing less. I've merely addressing your belittlement of the run n gun aspect of the game. Bleat all you want that the emphasis is on exploration; you're wrong, because there is no emphasis. You need an aim and some serious structure a la Super Metroid for emphasis to be on that.

I never got into the genre myself, mainly because of its almost nonexistent emphasis on platforming and level design - something which the Turrican games have in spades, actually.
Yes, and the Turrican games have a lot of shooting, too. See how I can see both sides? (BTW, there's really not mountains of level design in Turrican 2, which is mostly a package of aimlessness/stucturelessness. Compare Super Metroid, Flashback etc.)

Sorry; it was the only word that I could think of at the time. Maybe "enhancement" would work better?
No, the enchancement doesn't really suit your tone. "Belittlement" is a better word for you in this instance.

Well, yeah, that's generally the case when games have multiple onscreen enemies. But then you're getting into the kind of thing that I talked about with my "Sonic the Hedgehog is about bumping into things" analogy.
To continue my analogy, shooting would be the _lens_ of the camera.

Because Manfred Trenz was just being frivolous when he put in all of those secret passageways and bonus caves and branching pathways. Play the second world of Turrican II to see what I mean.
"Frivolous" has a negative connotation but I can't think of a better word right now, so that will have to do.

Which really makes no sense at all. Would choppier animation have made those games better in any way? If not, how can smoother animation be a detriment?
You've never animated a single walk cycle in your life have you? I love how you pull these words outta your arse hole like "choppier" and "smoother" when my comments pertained to number of animation frames dedicated to superfluous and _incidental_ (i.e., non-core mechanic) event-anims in DKC/EWJ. It amuses me.

Let me know where Earthworm Jim does that, because I've played it through and never encountered anything of the sort. I do agree about Donkey Kong Country trying to dress up a lackluster engine with "pretty" graphics, though (I actually hate that '90s plastic look with a passion).
Well, I've encoutered foreground fighting with action for my attention in EWJ quite a few times. I remember jumping back from my screen, shouting "get the fuck outta the way!", just as I would if someone in real life actually stood in front it.

If you're talking about Earthworm Jim, that's only the case for the SNES port; the SNES has a much lower resolution than the Genesis's, and a game originally developed for the Genesis will naturally be worse on the SNES. That's actually the main reason why I prefer the Genesis version.
Actually, I was referring to DKC.

I could understand your statement if you were comparing it to something like Brian the Lion or Bubsy the Bobcat, but neither Earthworm Jim nor Donkey Kong Country do that kind of thing.
Incorrect. I only died three or four times from it, but that's unforgiveable. I speak here of both EWJ foreground blindness and DKC edge-screen blindness. Very shit game design, made worse since the germ of it lies in "eye candy for the masses".

Excuse me? Donkey Kong Country is easy to the point of being dull (unless we're talking about the barrel-cannon areas, which actuallly do require "skill and timing" to pull off), but Earthworm Jim is both hard and fair. And since when is eye candy a bad thing if it's part of a great game? There's a reason that game reviews rate graphical presentation.
The barrel-cannon sequences were hard for you? Man, you seriously need to play a Taito _scrolling-screen_ (i.e., non-Bubble Bobble) plaformer. It really is the only way to sharpen those blunted skills of yours.

So a game can only have good gameplay if the developers focus on that aspect to the exclusion of everything else? Am I missing something here? Believe it or not, a game can be both fun and polished; it's not like the developers trade one off for the other. There are good games with bad graphics, bad games with good graphics, good games with good graphics, and bad games with bad graphics. It's silly to say that a game with good graphics can't also have polished gameplay.
It is silly, very silly; luckily no one's done that yet, huh?

How is the little boy (or whatever he his; I can't tell because of the ugly graphics) in Rainbow Islands "more responsive and enjoyable to manipulate" than Earthworm Jim is? He's slower (less responsive) and his vertical movement has a fixed speed (acceleration makes Earthworm Jim's controls more enjoyable).
I wasn't going to bother answering this because the question is riddled with ignorance of that Taito game, but I will _briefly_ for your benefit.

1. he's not slower or less responsive than EWJ (please play beyond round 1 and pick up at least 3 power ups)
2. the vertical scrolling speed is not fixed.

Don't take my comment about Rainbow Islands's graphics the wrong way; it was just a counterpoint to your obvious disdain for Earthworm Jim's excellent graphical polish (with animation frames drawn by the character's designer himself).
Well, you said the GFX were ugly. What an hilariously nonesensical comment. I don't have disdain for EWJ's polish - only where it distracts or detracts from the kernal of platforming (moving around, jumping, shooting, _getting on with the game_ without extraneous anim frames encroaching from the cartoon industry).

In short, Rainbow Islands + NZ Story >> EWJ + DKC! :-)

Last edited by Falcon Flight; 23 February 2010 at 13:14.
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