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Old 07 November 2009, 05:47   #167
Dan Locke
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: USA
Posts: 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
Bollocks, utter bollocks. So, how does Stunt Car Racer benefit from more colours and faster scrolling?
It doesn't, although it certainly could have. The fact that a game doesn't utilize a platform's extra features doesn't diminish them in any way. I take it that the 3DO's graphics are no better than the ST's because Cannon Fodder looks the same on both platforms?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
If the music is shit in the first place, an extra 4 channels suddenly makes a shit tune sould great?
No, when did I say that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
Maybe in your world!I guess the C64 with only 3 channels sounds shit because it only has 3 channels... yeah, that makes a tonne of sense!
No, it actually doesn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
More channels means the POTENTIAL to produce better tunes, that does NOT equate to WILL be better!
I said that the the SNES has better sound HARDWARE, because it DOES. I also said the the Amiga has better MUSICIANS, because it DOES. But when we're comparing the relative merits of a PLATFORM, especially with regard to GAMES, the SNES has the edge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
But thats the point, you stated that because the SNES was 16bit, its automatically a better sounding end result
Yes, if the samples are recorded correctly. 16 bits is CD-quality sound resolution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
.... clearly not, because the Amiga was never limited to whatever could be programmed from the chip. Didn't ever have to program a drum sound, or pan pipes, just grab a sample, and damn, it sounds like its supposed to be.
What are you TALKING about?! When did I EVER say that you had to program samples on the SNES from scratch?! Instruments were almost ALWAYS recorded, and they sounded clearer because its sound chip had 256 TIMES THE RESOLUTION THAT PAULA HAD.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
Consider this EASY salient fact. Are you honestly telling me that Xenon 2 Megablast title music would sound REMOTELY as good as the Amiga version?
It would sound TWICE as good, and a lot clearer to boot!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
Its a console throwback to making out the games were bigger than they actually were, kids lapped it up.
Sorta like "Blast Processing", huh?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
I suggest you read what was written. Remember your utterly ludicrous "well they could have filled the cartridge up with music" as some postulating proposal on how the SNES could have sounded better? See, I countered, and did it with aplomb.
NO, THAT'S NOT AT ALL WHAT I SAID! YOU SAID THAT THE 128-KB RAM LIMITED THE LENGTH OF A SONG ON THE SNES, AND I SAID THAT IT WOULD ONLY DO THAT IF IT WASN'T LOADING INSTANTLY FROM A CARTRIDGE! GAH, DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT?! YOU SAID THAT RAM WAS A TECHNICAL LIMITATION ON SONG LENGTH, I SAID THAT IT WASN'T, AND THEN YOU USED MY ILLUSTRATION OF WHY THE SNES'S LOW RAM DIDN'T AFFECT ITS SONG LENGTH TO "PROVE" THAT YOU NEED A WHOLE CARTRIDGE TO GET BETTER SAMPLE QUALITY ON THE SNES THAN ON THE AMIGA! DON'T YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THE TWO MACHINES?! I DON'T EVEN POST IN ALLCAPS UNLESS SOMEBODY SAYS SOMETHING REALLY STUPID!

For someone who complains that I twist his words, you're doing an awful lot of it yourself.

If you really need a concrete example of WHY the SNES has better sound quality, listen to the soundtrack of Final Fantasy III (or VI, if you're playing the original Japanese version), and compare the clarity of the string samples with that of, say Lionheart. In fact, turn WinUAE's Chip RAM and Fast RAM all the way up and see if Lionheart sounds any better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
Fraid you're a little mixed up there mucker, because that 128kb of ram isn't so great for storing lots of nice sounding samples
Hellooo, it loads from the cartridge, remember? It only stores the samples immediately before they're played, then dumps them and loads new ones. It can do this because they load INSTANTLY from a CARTRIDGE.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
which ironically, a SNES with enough VRAM would have sounded bloody fantastic.
And it doesn't already?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
And there is still the issue with ROM size on the cartridge, as samples don't compress very well, especially 16bit samples, and ROM space is at a premium on cartridges (i.e. an extra 512k ROM space bumps up the costs for the publishers quite a bit!), so as you can see, price and hardware hampered the SNES.
I assume that the Amiga's 880 KB floppies were not affected by this limitation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
They had to make a choice, either using the sound processor to do generated sound and have lots more graphics, or use lots of cartridge sapping space samples and have less graphics and cost more. See how my V8 Cadillac analogy actually works, unlike your response?
No.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
Your assertion was that the Amiga had to have a lot of skilled musicians to pull off the feat of nice sounding music, I simply pointed out why it was so, and why the games industry had a plethora of people to choose from, of course if you read between the lines, you'd have figured that out without me having to point it out to you! Sigh
That was really incomprehensible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
But hang on, the SNES has 16bit sound and 4 extra channels, you told me the music would automatically be better.....
I NEVER SAID THAT! WHY DON'T YOU ACTUALLY READ WHAT I DID SAY? HERE IT IS, SO THAT YOU DON'T HAVE TO SCROLL UP THE PAGE TO READ IT:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Locke View Post
Well, of course the machine with people who do nothing on it BUT music is going to have better music from an AESTHETIC point of view
To put it another way, a 1024x786 TrueColor PNG of a bull's anus is going to be a lot uglier than a 320x200 HAM image of an ocean sunset, but it's also going to be a lot clearer (more colors) and bigger (more pixels) because of the superior hardware that it's on. Here's another analogy: the Jaguar's games had some of the worst design ever, even though the Jaguar itself was technically advanced for its time. Got it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
why ever wouldn't you want to listen to SNES music? You need to make up your mind.
I made up my mind after I couldn't find anything better than the Earthworm Jim soundtrack, which I converted to WAV form before deleting the player (as there really isn't much of a point in having a player if you only use it for one song). But the SNES soundtracks that I listened to sound much clearer and fuller than even the best Amiga modules. And I have a lot of Amiga modules.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
Largely semantics really, the STE was quite a bit different to the STFM. Remind me, how many Falcons were sold versus the A1200? Bearing in mind the ST series pretty much died on its arse come late 1992
Yeah, and the 1200 didn't really do well either. Commodore went bankrupt a year after it was released.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
There was nothing to interpret! It was quicker to develop on Amiga, or do you think they sat on their arses when they finished a game? No, they would be swiftly moving onto another project.
And, because games were so easy and cheap to develop, more substandard developers with less talent and money made games for the Amiga. That's always the way that it's been with consoles vs. computers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
Turnaround was quicker, none of this evaluation that publishers had to do with Sega and Nintendo, just like publishers have to do with Sony and Microsoft today. All of that stuff completely passed the Amiga by, once the game was done, it was released.
And what's your point here? The guy in the interview even said himself that the games tended to be shallow and mindless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
Then don't mention anyone else!
Er, I haven't!
StarEye: The Amiga has better platformers than the consoles do.

Me: No, the consoles have better platformers.

You: I don't care; 40 good platformers is enough anyway

Me: Not enough that the Amiga has better platformers than the consoles do.

You: Nobody said that at all!

You made a statement applying to every other poster in the thread, and a false one at that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
I didn't state anything of the sort with regards to consoles having a better library of platformers or not, what I did state was that in the great scheme of things, I simply don't care.
Well, neither do I, if it makes you feel any better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
40 is more than enough derivatives for me, that consoles have 200 or 500 better platformers still doesn't alter that there are just simply more of the same thing, because lets face it, when it comes to originality and 'wow', well you're not going to get it in a platformer!
True for the most part, but there are those unique, original gems like Flashback and Exile. And don't forget Super Metroid, which is probably the best console platformer that I've ever played (though I still don't like it as much as Flashback).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
Well thats good to know, and like I stated before, this is the Amigas strength, jack of all trades, master of some, if I want to play a flight sim, I won't be doing it on a SNES!
Yeah, Pilotwings is inferior to pretty much every Amiga flight simulator ever made, and I can't think of any other flight simulators on the SNES. Home computers have the kind of thoughtful, patience-rewarding games that the consoles really didn't give you back then (although that's started to change a bit in recent years).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
You'd be surprised just how often the same game engines are reused over and over again with just minor tweaking for different things, but once the first game is out the door, the development time is halved for the next one, because they sure as hell do not recode it all from scratch. Actua Soccer, Actua Tennis, Actua Pool, Actua Ice Hockey, Actua Golf..... all used the same game engine, all completely different games.
Yeah, but they were all from the same company.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
For someone thats not knocking the Amiga, you've done a bang up job for the last two pages proving otherwise!
And the third poster hasn't? To quote:

"No, you're not alone, the Amiga had a lot of crappy games, the ratio of good games/all games must be one of the smallest on any system...(i verified that, i tried ALL the amiga games on lemonAmiga (with the whdload/adf versions on Winuae), did the same for the Genesis (good genesis) , msx (tosec) and Mame, the ratio of good games/all games for the genesis/mame/msx is far greater than on the Amiga."

Which is basically exactly what I said regarding its library, but favoring the consoles even more. As for my claims that its hardware is inferior to that of the consoles (both of them), why don't you read the specs?

Amiga has:

4096-color palette

32 colors in low-resolution mode (64 with the addition of half-bright tints), 16 in medium- and high-resolution modes, 4096 in HAM mode (HAM mode does not move), the copper chip can add one color per scanline

Hardware support for scrolling (parallax layers can be added at the cost of color depth)

8 sprites

4 8-bit sample-based sound channels

Genesis has:

512-color palette

64 colors at all times

Hardware support for three layers of independent parallax scrolling

80 sprites

6 FM synthesized sound channels

SNES has:

32768-color palette

256 colors in Modes 3 and 4, 128 in Mode 7

Hardware support for transparencies

Hardware support for four layers of independent parallax scrolling

128 sprites

8 16-bit sample-based sound channels

And when I say that the Amiga doesn't quite measure up to one system converted from an arcade board and another designed six years later, I'm somehow an Amiga-hating console fanboy. Right...

Last edited by Dan Locke; 07 November 2009 at 07:53.
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