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Old 03 November 2016, 11:28   #27
pandy71
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Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: PL
Posts: 1,532
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zetr0 View Post
@Thread

Only a very VERY few of us here have experience of BGA SMT - it is not something I would recommend to anyone to build at home. Experienced adepts and engineers apply only to BGA building.

Also the equipment needed to produce a working product is not cheap, within the UK I wouldn't suggest anyone attempt BGA SMT without spending atleast 800 on IrDA Lamps / or Ovens.
True

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zetr0 View Post
I can promise you even on the best day with everything going one's way that out of every 10 units you created at home, there will be atleast 1 that fails - simply because the temperature was out during a heating or cooling phase - and you wont know until you test them - sadly buying an X-Ray machine is both expensive and legally frowned upon for home use.
True

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zetr0 View Post
The thing about price is that its subjective if I have load of cash then 250 Euro's is nothing to my hobby - however like most - I don't have oodles of cash lying around, yet I personally feel this is the price point that Majsta should of used at the start of sellin these units - sadly hind-sight is an exact science - and I applaud them for trying to get it cheaper to the end user and I know that they lost a lot of money once Intel bought Altera and the Cyclone 3 quadrupled in cost over night.
Yes but Altera was always more expenssive than Xilinx and as a spinoff of Intel (in past) closely working with Intel (for many years) and Intel searching for new approach to deliver higher performance (so reprogramable HW on horizon already done on some Xeon CPU line) - it was not difficult to predict Alter acquisition by Intel (and unavoidable increase in price).
I asked multiple times for pre-order possibility or other way of crowd funding - most of us is aware that such design will be expensive and single person may have problem to put such money from a pocket (parts need to be ordered, PCB need to be made and assembled - this is at least 80k U$D for 1000 pcs batch), i was not alone and i was quite happy to take a risk and put for example 150E in upfront for design and production.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zetr0 View Post
Sadly this has cost both "good will" and integrity and that is a very sad shame considering - this puts the product at a price / performance area of the market which makes sense. 250 Euros would get you an 040 or 50Mhz 030 with lots of RAM and SCSI - and while the later provide an FPU at this point (the V2 still doesn't - 03/11/2016) - it still offers amazing amounts of processing power at least 5 times that of the 040 - it provides an RTG display adaptor as well as SD storage and HDMI out - pretty impressive when you stack it against products in its price bracket.
Well as you said - this is quite subjective but OK i will agree with you that matching other products for Amiga it is very or even more than very good deal for 250E but Amiga market is not healthy and i share Majsta personal feelings - that's why i'm unpleasantly surprised (but as i predicted price increase more than year AFAIR ago then surprise is not so significant).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zetr0 View Post
@Pandy71
Not sure its fair my friend to compare an x86 product that has these components flooded on the market over the last 8 years to a bespoke custom design like the Vampire - of course its a lot more powerful but its also a lot more embedded tech straight from Intel's factories - the vampire2 we see about today was initially cooked up by a guy whom 4 ish years ago only started learning FPGA technology - creating several proof of concept models, once teamed with the Apollo Team - that is where the real magic happens.
My point was not to beat Vampire as i'm convinced that Majsta and Apollo Team made magnificent work together - no doubt on this guys - please accept my appologies if you had impression like this - i respect you and your work - my point was to show product where only CPU cost more than 100U$D (Intel SRP is 161U$D http://ark.intel.com/products/95592/...-up-to-2_5-GHz )

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zetr0 View Post
Also my friend, we know that it costs more than just a Bill of Materials (BOM), there are license fees along side development and set up cost that have to be met. When you have 100 orders for a product, sure one can give that order quantity a go at home - but the moment you are into over 200 units and people expect them within a 28 day time frame - this is not something one can do at home - and remain sane with all the questions and additional orders flooding in.
True however to compare it is better to focus on BOM as it is comparable and it was my point to compare product with similar target - niche hobbyist market.
So once again all this is true and i predicted this long time ago and personally i have serious doubt's on price to value based only on BOM.
Hope you see my point - i'm not trying to convince anyone to share my point. I expressed some opinion, i believe it was fair opinion, provided to support this opinion some objective facts - never trying to doubt on anyone skills, never denied right to make business in a way someone like as i'm adult person and i respect other people choices - i believe it is fair to express that from perspective of some customers such price may be not acceptable but i believe in overall nobody care about such opinion as market is so hungry that it will accept even twice higher price.
I also never tried to judge anyone ethics, morality etc - business have not ethic or morality and as such merits like this are not appropriate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zetr0 View Post
How the team managed to handle over 600 V2 units for the Amiga A600 is nothing short of Amazing and must of taken sheer will power to process it all (and still make over 600 units)
Yes, it is true and fully inline with my previous statement.
Thank You All but particular respect goes to Majsta, Apollo Team and Kipper2k - All You proved something and this is highly inspiriting - i bought my Nexys and Basys FPGA boards already - will use this example and will try to do something less spectacular for myself.
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