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Old 31 July 2015, 00:35   #95
meynaf
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Lyon / France
Age: 44
Posts: 2,459
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthWay View Post
You are threading a fine line here... while I agree that it should be possible to do "whatever you want" on a personal machine, the only ones with a need for it are pure hackers (programmers, people running gfx rippers, sound rippers, mod rippers etc), and even then I see no reason to write to 0 as it is off-limits for all and anything.
Write to $0 is useless, okay. But write to $100 (my fave debug output address) ? Or to $DFF180 ?


Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthWay View Post
To have read-access to anything you should have to go a lot of extra miles (a "root" type user would have been an appropriate way of achieving it), to write to non-system memory it should suffice with a "root" type of raised access level, but to write to absolutely anything then a proper OS would more or less have to commit suicide as it can't guarantee anything any more.
The OS doesn't have to guarantee anything at all. We're talking about personal computers, not servers.


Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthWay View Post
Of course, a proper OS would give you many ways of modifying stuff through an API, probably all you could want?
Hmm, think about security for an API such as SetFunction... APIs don't solve everything.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrs Beanbag View Post
well automotive CPUs can certainly be quite beefy, but if you think Amigas can't be hacked because of their simplicity, if i were a gambler i'd be willing to put money against it. Anything that has an IP address can probably be hacked.
http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=3554
IMO to hack an Amiga you must have a physical access to it. Merely connecting it with an IP address doesn't make it vulnerable - what kind of attack would work ?

And even, any such attack wouldn't go unnoticed and have minimal impact. I see abnormal network access ? Well, i disconnect MiamiDx and your attempt to remotely control my Miggy just fails.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrs Beanbag View Post
simply because they are so limited in what they can do, and have no non-volatile storage, only a small amount of RAM and ROM.
So more simple = more secure. And they are not that limited.
Btw. many cartridges have non-volatile storage (for saved games). This doesn't make the console vulnerable.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrs Beanbag View Post
not every large project is necessarily bloatware. It is only natural that the size and complexity of software projects is going to increase.
This is where we don't agree
There is nothing natural for projects to be real big.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrs Beanbag View Post
Linux is open source... if you don't want to write an entire OS, you can at least write kernel modules and drivers.
This is equally painful for me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrs Beanbag View Post
if a program i don't know what it does asks for root privileges, i will certainly not be authorising it... if a game asks "can i write to your MBR?"... nope... what did you say about problem between keyboard and chair?
The requirements are more subtle. It might just require some access to your /usr/bin dir, or something like that...
Note : windows programs just ask for altering your computer, without saying how.

So what i said is the biggest security problem is what touches both the chair and the keyboard, i.e. the user.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrs Beanbag View Post
Security is only as strong as the user... well, ok, at least then maybe we can blame the user! But maybe you are assuming only one kind of security model is possible. We have to use our imaginations.
What is sure is that nothing is foolproof. So i prefer something open, where i can do whatever i want.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrs Beanbag View Post
it doesn't need to be, even with protection...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Addres..._randomization
Amiga's ROM functions are always at fixed addresses anyway, and if you write to $4 you can nuke entire OS.
You can't write to $4 with a buffer overflow attack (you could JUMP to $4, which is pointless, however).

Note that this kind of attack normally won't affect an ASM program because the asm programmer is (or should be ) smart enough to avoid putting large structures in the stack. Try such attacks on whichever program of mine if you don't believe me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrs Beanbag View Post
Of course we could implement very minimal memory protection, which only protects memory and doesn't remap it.
This is more or less what we have already.


Quote:
Originally Posted by brett71 View Post
Not to mention that consoles today are more dependent on the Internet, which opens up many attack vectors. 80's consoles were secure because they were stand-alone, so unless you had physical access to the console, it was impossible to compromise it.
I'll add that this dependency isn't necessary a good thing ; why, they even want to make all games depend on it.
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