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Old 29 July 2015, 17:59   #82
meynaf
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Lyon / France
Age: 44
Posts: 2,457
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrs Beanbag View Post
well we're not talking about "the miggy" we're talking about (or i thought we were) some new system like a sort of raspberry pi/console/htpc that might pull in a few million on Kickstarter.
It's all about "a computer like Amiga" here. Did you read the thread's title ?
If it's "like Amiga" it's maybe not the miggy itself, but it's sure not some raspberry pi clone either.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrs Beanbag View Post
Anything that gets popular will be a target, if it's got no security people will ruin everything just for fun, i never understood that attitude. Somebody hacked the Mr Beanbag website, don't ask me why.
I'm not wholly against security, only against what we call security and is currently more annoyance than anything else.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrs Beanbag View Post
i've already TOLD you!
Your reply told about locking things for business purpose, it did not mention any real security threat - which was what i was asking for.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrs Beanbag View Post
Windows machines are far more popular, so obviously they are going to be a popular target. And i know Windows security isn't very good. But that's not an argument against the very idea of security.
Of course, but that's an argument against the way security is made nowadays.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrs Beanbag View Post
Here's another problem that plagues even Amiga users, i see complaints about it on this very forum. If a program crashes, it can take out the entire system, because it can just write into memory at random. There's no resource tracking, no memory protection... nobody in their right mind would design a new system where that would happen. This is supposed to be a multitasking platform. One program gets a "null pointer error" or what have you, and you lose all your work in everything else you have open.
This is an excellent lesson for prudence, isn't it ?
When running your asm program for debug you know the risk so you save everything else, don't you ?

No memory protection ? We can have a limited one. I use enforcer as a debugging tool (and therefore will not switch for some clone without an mmu). This is enough for "null memory errors" you mention.

No resource tracking ? My own programs DO have resource tracking inside, thru my asm system framework.

About designing a new machine where a single program can bring the whole system down, well, why not giving the choice ? Protection can be active or not.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrs Beanbag View Post
And i'm afraid to say you really need to take your head out of the sand.
Perhaps i see things in the sand that have been incorrectly buried


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrs Beanbag View Post
The way people use computers has changed enormously. 30 years ago computers were either, serious business, games for children, or hobbies for geeks. Every time i go on the bus or train these days, everyone around me has their phones out, tapping away, writing messages on facebook or looking at cats. People do their shopping and banking on computers, they store all their family photos and sensitive personal information. You might personally just want to go into a cave and tinker on your own, but computing is mainstream now, and it's social.
A terminal isn't a computer, and what most people do today, don't need a computer at all but just some input device and screen, connected to some remote server.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrs Beanbag View Post
You asked me what the sane reasons are for locking down direct hardware access, well i've told you.
Your reply was too vague so maybe the question is worth asking again.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrs Beanbag View Post
Anyway i do kind of wonder what you really mean by the terms "modern" and "PC", maybe by PC you mean "Windows". But at other times not. I don't know.
Whether it's "Windows" or anything else don't matter much. "modern" is what we have currently on the market, isn't it ?
And anything running bloatwares on a gigahertz machine is pc-like for me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrs Beanbag View Post
You DO have direct hardware access on a modern PC, if you want to put the effort in. The operating system obviously has it or it couldn't work. You can write your own operating system if you want. Write a boot loader. I did it once.
You have a very limited access if you try to do so. First, there is so many hardware available that this access will only work on your current machine. Second, docs about hardware interfaces are all but easy to find.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrs Beanbag View Post
The problem with PCs on the hardware side, is that there are so many different possible configurations, hundreds of different chip sets, graphics cards, CPUs even... it would be impossible to program anything with any degree of compatibility without APIs. It's not the security model that hinders you in that respect. The advantage the Amiga has is that its hardware is always more or less the same, you know the location of the registers and what they do... yet still people managed to write games for A500 that didn't work on later models. Also Commodore really didn't want programmers to "bang the hardware" for precisely this reason, and AAA chipset wasn't planned to be backwards compatible with AGA or OCS at that level. You were supposed to use the graphics library.
I'm not exactly an advocate of accessing the hardware directly, but it should be doable at least for some programs.
You can't properly play a ProTracker module with just audio.device, for example. And some tasks are low-level by nature.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrs Beanbag View Post
Whatever way you go about designing a system, a games programmer shouldn't have to worry about compatibility issues. If it works it should just work... this is the case on consoles, a PS3 is a PS3, an XBox 360 is an XBox 360... (well no doubt there are some edge cases but on the whole it's true). Games programmers treated the Amiga like a console, in order to get best results, and i don't blame them, i wouldn't use graphics library either if i cared about performance... but i see no reason whatsoever to go over the system's head when it comes to, for instance, file access. They did that for purposes of copy protection, of course, and back then nobody expected to install games on hard drives anyway.
That's not a reason to have bloatwares as operating systems, is it ?

Anyway, did you know that none of my programs accesses hardware directly ? I always use my own system framework, which is a mini os on top of amigaos.

Allowing a direct hw access under some conditions isn't the removeal of all apis...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorham View Post
Indeed, it's absolutely terrible when programming in assembly language, C is not as bad.
Personnally i prefer "fail early and fail bad" over "fail late and fail silent".


Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorham View Post
How much work do you really loose because of crashes? A few minutes? I save VERY often, even on my Winbox. Obviously memory protection should be an option at the very least, but if you're loosing real amounts of work because of crashes then you need to learn how to save
I agree. If you save your work, then crash, well, big deal. Rebooting an Amiga is nearly as fast as restarting these huge pc IDE.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorham View Post
You call everyone messing with their phones EVERYWHERE social? LOL As much as I like technological advancement, all those phones are just ridiculous. Seriously, take people's phones away and they'll get physical withdrawal symptoms
They look like modern zombies to me


Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorham View Post
With game engines like Unity3D it couldn't be any easier.
But you do only what that game engine allows you to do, iow you've got limited freedom.
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