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-   -   Toki (http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=99308)

albino 21 October 2019 22:23

Toki
 
Hi guys,

I just wonder why this excellent arcade conversion got such tiny screen?

Was it possible to increase the screen size without loosing other features the

programmer manage to get like parallax scrolling?

DanScott 21 October 2019 22:31

I believe the coin-op was running at 256x240 resolution... I think the Amiga version is the same screen dimensions (although this resolution looks "smaller" on the Amiga)

Many coin-ops of that time used this (or similar) resolution

Shatterhand 21 October 2019 22:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanScott (Post 1353169)
I believe the coin-op was running at 256x240 resolution... I think the Amiga version is the same screen dimensions (although this resolution looks "smaller" on the Amiga)

Many coin-ops of that time used this (or similar) resolution

Was going to say the same thing. The arcade game runs at 256x224, they were just trying to be accurate.

I heard people saying this is a bad feature of the Amiga port. It's just they were aiming for best accuracy as possible :)

albino 21 October 2019 22:43

Thanks for the answer guys..

heavy 21 October 2019 22:44

seems to be 224x200

Superman 21 October 2019 22:45

Toki is an excellent arcade conversion.

DanScott 21 October 2019 23:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by heavy (Post 1353173)
seems to be 224x200


Looks like it's 224 on Amiga.. but not far off the original size.

Lots of masked blitting going off there though ;)

DanScott 21 October 2019 23:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shatterhand (Post 1353171)
Was going to say the same thing. The arcade game runs at 256x224, they were just trying to be accurate.

I heard people saying this is a bad feature of the Amiga port. It's just they were
aiming for best accuracy as possible :)

If I was porting a game that originally was at 256x224 or 256x240, then I'd definitely try to keep the same size as the original. Makes for a much more accurate and authentic conversion (even if there is some extra border space)

Shatterhand 21 October 2019 23:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Superman (Post 1353174)
Toki is an excellent arcade conversion.

It is indeed. The lack of 2 button make it harder than the arcade version though, and I believe it's lacking one or two enemies here and there... I could get very far on the Arcade version, and I remember playing the Amiga one and not getting attacked at certain spots I would be on the Arcade one... but most of the time it was damn accurate.

The scrolling was kinda messy too. I read somewhere the Amiga version "Fixes the bug the arcade version has with the scrolling". I have no idea of what they were talking about, but on the Amiga version you sometimes have to stop moving a little so the scroll can catch up with the action.

But all in all, an amazingly good conversion indeed.

heavy 22 October 2019 00:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanScott (Post 1353178)
Looks like it's 224 on Amiga.. but not far off the original size.

yep, on Amiga
see Toki Amiga vs Arcade :
https://amigachaptertwo.wordpress.co...iga-vs-arcade/
(sorry in french)

note: same site for the Z-Out Windows port : Last Out

Shatterhand 22 October 2019 00:23

Just checked a video for the Atari ST version. Also incredibly good and the horizontal scroll keeps up with the action, unlike the Amiga version.

heavy 22 October 2019 00:41

from amigachaptertwo :
Quote:

The word is to the programmer ...

After contacting Michel Janicki, programmer of the Amiga version, about the differences between the scrolling of the Amiga and Atari ST versions, he told me that indeed an optimization had been made to the Amiga scrolling to make the game more difficult .
Concerning the ST version, these optimizations could not be implemented ...
and the girl is no more blonde ;)

Shatterhand 22 October 2019 01:05

That was a pretty stupid idea IMO.

DamienD 22 October 2019 01:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by albino (Post 1353163)
Hi guys,

I just wonder why this excellent arcade conversion got such tiny screen?

Was it possible to increase the screen size without loosing other features the

programmer manage to get like parallax scrolling?

Yeah, run the game in WinUAE with a double resolution of "640 x 400" and then all is good :p

Same for Liquid Kids ;)

roondar 22 October 2019 10:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by heavy (Post 1353198)
from amigachaptertwo :

and the girl is no more blonde ;)

Wait, they made an Arcade game more difficult because they could program the Amiga to do scroll differently?
Wow, that's unexpected for sure. Crazy people :nuts:laughing

Konrad 22 October 2019 11:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by heavy (Post 1353198)
from amigachaptertwo :
After contacting Michel Janicki, programmer of the Amiga version, about the differences between the scrolling of the Amiga and Atari ST versions, he told me that indeed an optimization had been made to the Amiga scrolling to make the game more difficult .

Don't understand (or believe) this. The Amiga version has the same pace as the original Arcade version.
And although some might like the speed of the Atari version, I don't. It's simply a complete differente pace as the original.

DanScott 22 October 2019 11:18

If you know how "fast" scroll routines are done on the Atari ST, you'll understand why the scroll mechanic is different from the Amiga ;)

Konrad 22 October 2019 11:25

I'm not sure if I got your point, or if I expressed mine correctly ;).
Atari version is much too fast for my taste, as it's faster than the Arcade version.
Amiga matches mostly the speed of the Arcade version.

After reading the article I understand what was meant with "scrolling hooked to the player".
Scrolling is hooked in Atari version. In the Amiga version the scrolling is a little more "delayed".

Still I think Amiga version matches the pace and character of the Arcade version better.

Shatterhand 22 October 2019 12:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanScott (Post 1353273)
If you know how "fast" scroll routines are done on the Atari ST, you'll understand why the scroll mechanic is different from the Amiga ;)

The thing is that the ST version actually scrolls faster than the Amiga one. It's less smooth but faster, but not to the point of shifting 16 pixels per frame like in some ST games I've seen (which I think, though I may be wrong, would be the only way the ST would be indeed "faster")

It looks like the programmer wanted to do a 1 pixel scroller on Amiga just to show how smooth it can be, but it actually hurts gameplay, because then the scroll can't keep up with the action.

Or the scroll is wating for the blitter to finishing blitting the new tiles, I dunno.

If this was indeed done deliberately it was a very silly decision. It's really annoying to keep "pausing" so the scroll can keep up with you, and at a few points where you fall from a big height, you can die from an enemy before you can even see it because the "camera" wasn't following your movement fast enough.

This scrolling nonsense and the "up for jump" are the only problems with this port. The "up for jump" was impossible to avoid (At least back when the game was made), but if the scrolling was done this on purpose, it was a bad decision and something that *maybe* deserves to be patched, if its possible to do it.

EDIT Compare arcade version at 1:55
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Px16r5VKyk

And Amiga version at 1:30:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c481XMeiyac


EDIT 2: Damn it, running both videos side by side... IT IS an amazing Port.....

DanScott 22 October 2019 12:46

Generally, ST scroll routines in games were (in my experience at Core at least) created by having preshifted block "pairs".. then the tile data can be moved to the screen with simple moves... having the blocks preshifted means you need to store the tile-pairs for each pixel of scroll resolution...

I'd imagine on TOKI they probably have a scroll resolution of 4 pixels on the ST... so they would need to store 4 sets of these preshifted pairs.


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