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-   -   Final Fight Speculation (http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=92851)

sandruzzo 29 May 2018 21:20

Final Fight Speculation
 
Was Final Fight on Amiga the best that our machine could do?:shocked

tolkien 29 May 2018 21:35

Is the best we have till someone do it better.

Retro1234 29 May 2018 21:56

Final Fight runs on 512kb I doubt annyone could beat that.

Theres also Final Fight AGA

and on YouTube Final Fight supposedly made in Amos but he lost the code might be fake because theres no details.

dlfrsilver 29 May 2018 22:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Retro1234 (Post 1244697)
Final Fight runs on 512kb I doubt annyone could beat that.

Theres also Final Fight AGA

and on YouTube Final Fight supposedly made in Amos but he lost the code might be fake because theres no details.

he got a hard drive crash.

Retro1234 29 May 2018 22:55

Yes it might be fake he doesn't say how he got around the Amos Bob clipping also as far as I know you can't display graphics behind tiles in Amos like on the train level a few things unless he explains I think it might be fake.

Why anyone would go through all the effort to make a fake video ?!?

Shatterhand 30 May 2018 06:21

I guess it really depends on how you take the game.

First, the game plays like shit. Without using more memory, not messing with GFX or anything, you could have the special move working like in the arcade, combos working like in the arcade and the enemies not ganging you up in a corner until all your energy goes away. Those 3 fixes would already make the game a shitload better and it would still run on 512 kb.

But I personally would prefer smaller sprites (BOBs whatever) with better speed/gameplay. Give me smaller sprites but all moves and all enemies. The way the game streams from the disk mid-gameplay, I believe it could fit on 512 kb. (Golden Axe and Shadow Warriors do, don't they?).

Of course, you would need someone to rework graphics, and AFAIK Mr. Applin was doing the whole job alone (for both Amiga and ST in just 6 months which, we have to admit it was an impossible job).

Now if you are talking just about the genre... I really think a scrolling figthing game designed properly for our machine could be very good. Unfortunately no one ever made one that was good. Last Action Hero could had been good with a few (a lot?) of tweaks. Golden Axe is the best game on the genre for the system IMO, and I don't think even as an arcade game it was all that great.

Someday I'll try to code one myself. I really have many ideas of how to do it, I just need the time to sit down and write the code for it :)

sandruzzo 30 May 2018 08:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shatterhand (Post 1244739)
I guess it really depends on how you take the game.

First, the game plays like shit. Without using more memory, not messing with GFX or anything, you could have the special move working like in the arcade, combos working like in the arcade and the enemies not ganging you up in a corner until all your energy goes away. Those 3 fixes would already make the game a shitload better and it would still run on 512 kb.

But I personally would prefer smaller sprites (BOBs whatever) with better speed/gameplay. Give me smaller sprites but all moves and all enemies. The way the game streams from the disk mid-gameplay, I believe it could fit on 512 kb. (Golden Axe and Shadow Warriors do, don't they?).

Of course, you would need someone to rework graphics, and AFAIK Mr. Applin was doing the whole job alone (for both Amiga and ST in just 6 months which, we have to admit it was an impossible job).

Now if you are talking just about the genre... I really think a scrolling figthing game designed properly for our machine could be very good. Unfortunately no one ever made one that was good. Last Action Hero could had been good with a few (a lot?) of tweaks. Golden Axe is the best game on the genre for the system IMO, and I don't think even as an arcade game it was all that great.

Someday I'll try to code one myself. I really have many ideas of how to do it, I just need the time to sit down and write the code for it :)

I agree! 30% less big bobs' would have been great. Maybe it could stand with 32 colors! Double dragon 2-3 weren't so bad!

Retro1234 30 May 2018 10:19

Yes maybe like this
https://doubledragon.kontek.net/games/dd/rdd2600.html

Seiya 30 May 2018 13:07

i see yesterday again Shadow Dancer that run with 512k, has good size movement sprites, fluid a 50 fps in every situations and great care of graphics.
Final Fight is little different in gameplay (anyway, both are progressive beat'em up), but with more 2 characters on screen it slowdown very much.

Muzkat 30 May 2018 14:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shatterhand (Post 1244739)
First, the game plays like shit. Without using more memory, not messing with GFX or anything, you could have the special move working like in the arcade, combos working like in the arcade and the enemies not ganging you up in a corner until all your energy goes away. Those 3 fixes would already make the game a shitload better and it would still run on 512 kb.

This is my main grievance with the Amiga version of Final Fight. The gameplay and controls are atrocious.

Shatterhand 30 May 2018 18:01

This is a game running on a 8 bits system with half the CPU speed of an A500, and the whole game is just 256 kbytes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHby7-Kah7w

This beats the hell out of *any* beat'em up on amiga.

While I understand that having a decent sprite hardware and tiles for background would make a lot easier to develop a game like this (And sprites on Master System are more powerful than on Amiga), I really think something like this could be handled by the hardware without much trouble (Honestly, with that framerate, I still think Amiga could handle a 2nd player and more than 2 foes on screen... and maybe still fit everything under 512 kb)


Shit, this is a NES game, supports 2 simultaneous player and it's also better than everything on the genre for Amiga:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03tHi3kINjM.

Like I said, I'd rather have smaller BOBs than shitty gameplay.

Quote:

i see yesterday again Shadow Dancer that run with 512k, has good size movement sprites, fluid a 50 fps in every situations and great care of graphics.
Man, I Love Shadow Dancer on Amiga, but no way that game is running at 50 fps. Play the arcade version then go to the Amiga version and you'll se a lot of things moving not so smoothly. I believe scroll may be at 50 fps, but the enemies move at 25 fps or maybe even less. Still it's a great conversion, great game on Amiga :)

mcgeezer 30 May 2018 19:15

These games could easily be ported to the a500. 50fps and probably more sprites too.

TurboCrash 30 May 2018 19:19

It's the best the amiga could do. You need a really monstrous machine like a z80 with 48k of ram to make a proper mighty final fight /s

http://www.indieretronews.com/2018/0...nal-fight.html

Shatterhand 30 May 2018 19:35

I didn't mention Might Final Fight because while the NES original game is a brilliant game, it has lots of limitations when compared to other games of the genre, and also play a lot different. The TMNT game and Streets of Rage I mentioned above are more "traditional" games on the genre. But yeah, it's a great example too.

Like McGeezer said, I am pretty sure that TMNT 3 game could be made on Amiga with more bobs and no flicker like the NES one has :)

But we didn't have Konami or Sega making games on Amiga. :) The major problem wasn't competent coders, but people who actually could design good games around the hardware. Well, good beat'em ups at least.

I'll never forget Richard Applin saying he didn't understand the appeal of games like Double Dragon 2 and Final Fight, and that he preferred playing Shinobi. No wonder his Shinobi port for the Amstrad was great, while Final Fight on Amiga was.. erm... and Double Dragon 2 has lots of gameplay issues (even though technically its great - also running on 512 kb afaik). He didn't understand those games and couldn't transfer the gameplay aspects of them that made them good games on the arcades. (And probably why he thought mantaining the big sprites of Final Fight was more important than, say, keeping all player moves intact)

That's the main point I think. People trying to do beat'em ups without understanding what makes them good on the first place. Last Action Hero is technically very good, but the gameplay stinks. From that engine someone could tweak it and make a very solid beat'em up.

Konami or Capcom could make a great beat'em up running on an OCS 512 kb machine, I am pretty sure :)

LeCaravage 30 May 2018 19:54

AFAIK Richard Aplin alone did the Atari St, Amiga and Amstrad CPC + deadline pressure. The only one to blame is his boss for not giving him more significant resources.

Retro1234 30 May 2018 20:56

Final Fight with sprites the size of Shadow Dancer no thanks

I'd like a SE version of Final Fight redone Palette and second button support etc.

Shatterhand 30 May 2018 21:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeCaravage (Post 1244851)
AFAIK Richard Aplin alone did the Atari St, Amiga and Amstrad CPC + deadline pressure. The only one to blame is his boss for not giving him more significant resources.

No doubt this was the biggest problem. One guy doing 3 versions of the same game such a tight deadline.

spiff 30 May 2018 22:59

Mega CD version for reference.

An amiga should be able to do that at half the frame rate and on screen colours, but using a better palette.
And that pretty close to what Richard did.

Minus all the extra CD intro stuff etc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-dVqPjHU4Y

dlfrsilver 31 May 2018 01:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Retro1234 (Post 1244863)
Final Fight with sprites the size of Shadow Dancer no thanks

I'd like a SE version of Final Fight redone Palette and second button support etc.

FF on CPC was nick Vincent. Richard said it :)

mcgeezer 31 May 2018 11:43

I've never really been a fan of the beat 'em up genre so when Double Dragon and pretty much everything after it came out I was never inspired that much to play them.

However there are some notable exceptions such as Mortal Kombat which I loved and played a lot on my SNES, but my all time favourite is Kung Fu Master in the arcades which when I've looked never received an Amiga port!

I think I could be inspired enough to code a game based on my love for martial arts movies such as Enter the Dragon, The Raid 1 or 2, Old Boy.

I can't think of any decent Kung Fu games on the Amiga that beats Kung Fu master so I might have a pop at that for a short 3 month project... something like "Kung Fu Master - The Upper Floors" could be good.

Up for debate, are there any better arcade style games on Amiga that beats Kung Fu master?


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