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-   -   Amiga scene desperately needs two things. (http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=90210)

Akira 22 January 2018 18:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by malko (Post 1213150)
Amiga was (is?) the best computer around :great .

This kind of thought is what holds the Amiga back.

1) It's empirically wrong
2) It makes people who don't know the technicalities think the Amiga can do a lot more than it actually can
3) It sets ridiculously high expectations for independent developers to fulfill.
4) Stupidly high expectations and user backlash from things like "simple graphics" (mentioned by Shatterhand above) remove motivation from those actively working on the platform and scares those even thinking of getting into it.

Foebane 22 January 2018 23:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by nobody (Post 1213206)
But the point here is that it is easier to do something on the C64.

PS some time ago I did these, it took me 3 hours on the C64 one and about 18 hours on the Amiga-like one with 16 colors, not even 32 drawing pixel by pixel

Not to impugn your work, sir, but I can't stand to look at C64 graphics: that awful skewed colour palette dominated by multiple shades (or it feels like) of lime green, horrible bluey-purple and god knows how many browns. It makes me wonder how the machine ever took off in the first place. I'd rather take the monochrome, simple RGB look of the ZX Spectrum.

Foebane 22 January 2018 23:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akira (Post 1213829)
This kind of thought is what holds the Amiga back.

1) It's empirically wrong

Wasn't it the best HOME computer when it was launched in 1985, and the A500 in 1987?

DamienD 22 January 2018 23:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Foebane (Post 1213961)
Not to impugn your work, sir, but I can't stand to look at C64 graphics: that awful skewed colour palette dominated by multiple shades (or it feels like) of lime green, horrible bluey-purple and god knows how many browns. It makes me wonder how the machine ever took off in the first place. I'd rather take the monochrome, simple RGB look of the ZX Spectrum.

You clearly won't using this at release; it was ground-breaking / ahead of it's time and what lead onto the Amiga :rolleyes

Obviously looking back 30+ years, it now looks dated. Again, you had to be there; that's what nostalgia is about!!!

malko 22 January 2018 23:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by meynaf (Post 1213240)
Sure ugly graphics are easier to draw than nice ones !

:laughing

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akira (Post 1213829)
1) It's empirically wrong

If, in your perception (& mine), it was not the best computer around, may I ask you why we are exchanging here concerning this computer right now in 2018 ? ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akira (Post 1213829)
2) It makes people who don't know the technicalities think the Amiga can do a lot more than it actually can

I think you are referring to a thread concerning a person which wanted to do a better port of Doom or Quake on Amiga and was looking for coders, him as the project lead (I red too much things, I don't remember it correctly - but was something like that).

It is impossible to prevent people thinking that it is possible to do "better". And this is a positive good thing !
(Of course it is better if the person has coding knowledge :) .)

As example, I remember (back in ~90') that a lot of important people/coders from the Amiga scene were saying that it was impossible to do a "Star Wars scrolling" on the Amiga (A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away....) but Mr. Mega Mind did it (others?). Same for the Super Nintendo mode 7 that has been reproduced in the game Brian the lion (did I mention it ? excellent Amiga coders !) :D .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akira (Post 1213829)
3) It sets ridiculously high expectations for independent developers to fulfill.
4) Stupidly high expectations and user backlash from things like "simple graphics" (mentioned by Shatterhand above) remove motivation from those actively working on the platform and scares those even thinking of getting into it.

I definitively do not agree and most of all, I do believe/know that developers wanting to code for a platform will read the available literature and thus will not have ridiculous high expectations. They will also come to a forum (such as EAB) and ask for help. Regarding the answer they may receive, they may for sure be scared and think twice before continuing getting into it.

Also, I do believe that comments, as we can see on different threads in EAB, saying that some games are just poor/crap port of ST games (even if true for various reasons) may REALLY let people think that the Amiga was not used to his potential.

Some people are good in coding, some in graphic, some in music, some in idea, etc. some are good in all of these.
But in the end, who has the expectation ? the coder/the team ? the guy wanting to play a game ?
Both I think but they may greatly differ.

Anybody who has motivation will be motivated by the goals he wants to reach. Sometimes the goal will be fulfilled, sometimes the goal will not and the the work left in a folder. But this is always the decision of the coder (if alone) or the whole team that has developed the game/demo/application (regarding his/their own values).

Hope you did not fall asleep :sleep with my long text :laughing .

Akira 23 January 2018 00:15

I think maybe what I sad was confusing:

Quote:

Originally Posted by malko (Post 1213968)
If, in your perception (& mine), it was not the best computer around, may I ask you why we are exchanging here concerning this computer right now in 2018 ? ;)

Liking a computer a lot does not mean it is EMPIRICALLY the best around. Do I like the platform a lot enough to be talking about it in 2018? Yes. I like the C64 a lot too. But neither are "the best home computer ever and forevers". That zealotry and rose-tinted glasses nostalgia clouds people's common sense.

Quote:

It is impossible to prevent people thinking that it is possible to do "better". And this is a positive good thing !
Doing better isn't the problem. Demanding the impossible is.

Quote:

I definitively do not agree and most of all, I do believe/know that developers wanting to code for a platform will read the available literature and thus will not have ridiculous high expectations.
You are getting confused there mate. I did not say that developers get high expectations, it is the public/those who do not code/whatever expectations that turn developers off. Developers, as you say, know what they are dealing with and usually are able to set realistic goals for themselves.

Quote:

But in the end, who has the expectation ? the coder/the team ? the guy wanting to play a game ?
They all have different expectations and this breach makes it complicated. Also the platform is very fragmented and each microfragment has different expectations on all sides.

Quote:

Anybody who has motivation will be motivated by the goals he wants to reach.
Not entirely true. When someone is making a game to put out on the public for them to use, positive people's response is also one of their goals, in most cases.
Look at Steril07's thread about the Santa game and how he got demotivated to do anything because of -two- YouTube comments. Was he right ? Not in my view. But it happened and that's an undeniable fact that should be analyzed.

Foebane 23 January 2018 00:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by DamienD (Post 1213964)
You clearly won't using this at release; it was ground-breaking / ahead of it's time and what lead onto the Amiga :rolleyes

Obviously looking back 30+ years, it now looks dated. Again, you had to be there; that's what nostalgia is about!!!

Are you talking about the Atari 400/800/XL/XE? I'm certain you are. After all, that system was ground-breaking and ahead of its time THREE YEARS before the C64, and it was designed by Jay Miner, who went on to become Father of the Amiga.

I think you're worshipping the wrong hardware. :)

malko 23 January 2018 00:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akira (Post 1213975)
Look at Steril07's thread about the Santa game and how he got demotivated to do anything because of -two- YouTube comments.

I cannot find anything related to this :blased . Would you mind providing a link ?

Retro-Nerd 23 January 2018 01:14

Nothing on the C64 looks date or horrible, with a decent graphics artist and time (which they often didn't have back then). I can't believe people still pushing this pure nonsense after all this years. :rolleyes :nuts

https://abload.de/img/commandoc645gsu5.gif

https://abload.de/img/wizballc64m8s44.gif

Galahad/FLT 23 January 2018 01:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by malko (Post 1213987)
I cannot find anything related to this :blased . Would you mind providing a link ?

http://eab.abime.net/showpost.php?p=...&postcount=489

And read onwards...

Retro-Nerd 23 January 2018 01:37

Look how long it takes to get a game like "Scourge of the Unkind" done. Then you get the idea why most of the homebrew Amiga games doesn't go the extra mile. Besides the fact that there aren't thousands of graphics artists out there who could do polished stuff in the quality of a Henk Nieborg or J.D. Sachs.

So, more simple games are just fine. If they are well done, like e.g. Solid Gold. :great

nobody 23 January 2018 01:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Foebane (Post 1213961)
Not to impugn your work, sir, but I can't stand to look at C64 graphics: that awful skewed colour palette dominated by multiple shades (or it feels like) of lime green, horrible bluey-purple and god knows how many browns. It makes me wonder how the machine ever took off in the first place. I'd rather take the monochrome, simple RGB look of the ZX Spectrum.

There is no comparison, the C64 is way ahead (for gaming) of all Ataris, CPCs and of course the Spectrums.

Foebane 23 January 2018 01:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by nobody (Post 1213995)
There is no comparison, the C64 is way ahead (for gaming) of all Ataris, CPCs and of course the Spectrums.

I never had a C64, I had both an Atari 600XL and 800XL, so I prefer those, OK?

Akira 23 January 2018 02:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Foebane (Post 1214001)
I never had a C64, I had both an Atari 600XL and 800XL, so I prefer those, OK?

"I never had pizza, I had baked beans and green beans, so I prefer those, OK?"

:nervous

Life's best is in variety. Maybe give a new thing a try for a change.

malko 23 January 2018 02:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT (Post 1213992)

Thanks. With your help found also this and have seen the 9 comments under the video.

It's sad indeed... and I don't minimize the stuff but... finally, it's only the story of a dumb comment that was taken too much seriously.

In my point of view, @Akira, there is nothing that need to be analysed. There are fools everywhere and Steril707 should be more proud of his own work.

Foebane 23 January 2018 07:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akira (Post 1214005)
"I never had pizza, I had baked beans and green beans, so I prefer those, OK?"

:nervous

Life's best is in variety. Maybe give a new thing a try for a change.

I did have an Atari STFM for a while.

Daedalus 23 January 2018 16:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by nobody (Post 1213995)
There is no comparison, the C64 is way ahead (for gaming) of all Ataris, CPCs and of course the Spectrums.

It really depended on the game. The hardware was actually quite different between the various 8-bit systems, making direct comparisons difficult. Many games played better on the C64, and of course it had the SID chip, but the Ataris had a much better colour palette for example, and totally different ways of using the graphics hardware meant that some games were far better on the Atari than the C64. The key example I can think of was Crack Up, a pretty excellent Arkanoid / breakout clone, and one that I really enjoyed on the Atari. I remember being so disappointed when I saw it on the C64 - the colours were awful (bland blocks and a monochrome bat), and it had no animated starfield background. Nowadays, having the game on several different emulators, the only version I bother to run is the Atari one.

mcgeezer 23 January 2018 17:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by nobody (Post 1213995)
There is no comparison, the C64 is way ahead (for gaming) of all Ataris, CPCs and of course the Spectrums.

Do you mean by the variety of games? If so then I agree on the Atari 8 Bit side of things. But to say it's way ahead of variety of games against the ZX/CPC is just plane wrong - the Speccy probably leads the way there.

If you're comparing technical capabilities then the Atari 8Bit will skin the C64/ZX and CPC, it was an awesome machine.

While I'm at it and on the subject of developer critique. Any coder just has to do it for the love, even self learning. Any home brew stuff that you post on <insert your favourite streaming site here> is going to attract morons comparing your stuff from commercial releases. Just remember, they are morons who are ignorant and don't know any better. There's an old saying 'You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time'.

The one thing I would say after being here three months is that this place can get quite nasty sometimes, which is a shame, most of the time it's ok and realistic though.

Akira 23 January 2018 17:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by malko (Post 1214006)
In my point of view, @Akira, there is nothing that need to be analysed. There are fools everywhere and Steril707 should be more proud of his own work.

It isn't that simple. Although I agree with your point of view, I also think Steril07 has a right to act in whichever way he wants.

Foebane 23 January 2018 20:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daedalus (Post 1214151)
Many games played better on the C64

Rubbish.

Back when I had access to A8 and C64 emulators, I compared my favourite Atari games with their C64 counterparts, and I was surprised how much more sluggish and non-smooth the C64 versions were. Example games were Blue Max, Bruce Lee, Warhawk, Boulder Dash, Defender, Zybex, and quite a few others. The Atari versions felt 100% smoother and much more like an arcade experience. The C64 versions may have sometimes have had more detailed graphics (with the hi-res characters and sprites) but I actually like the simpler, more colourful look of the A8.


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