C.A.P.S. - RELEASE TIME (A Christmas prezzie to all)

[fiath]

NO GAMES ARE, OR EVER WILL BE, AVAILABLE FROM THE CAPS SITE

Yes, finally. We are there. The first C.A.P.S. release is done. The game "Wizard Warz" is the rarest we knew of and now it is no longer (except in physical form).

So...

CAPS, The Classic Amiga Preservation Society, has been working for two years to preserve original Amiga games. It was all started by the author of Abandoned Places I & II, now the founder of CAPS in April 2001. He was generally fed up seeing his and other ex-Amiga authors games being cracked, hacked and generally messed up - even including seeing author credits being replaced by things like "cracked by Quartex!". All this to make the games into a form that is not tied to the physical copy protected media.

But not only that, many Amiga game collections are "dying". TDK themselves are quoted to have said that a floppy disk's lifespan is only around 5-10 years, but most Amiga games are older than this! Magnetic media like floppy disks eventually suffer some form of "bit rot", where the particles on the disk loose their charge and floppy drive hardware can no longer determine if a bit was a 0 or a 1.

The only way people have been able to "repair" their disks was to replace it with a "cracked" copy, which may have had bugs introduced while removing the protection, but almost all have "intros" added by the cracking group, this really ditracts from the game and is not really in the spirit of preservation.

Is anybody really surprised when old Amiga games companies will not let their games be freely download from the net? They are damaged goods!

CAPS wants to preserve the originals for the future. This may be a time when the Amiga games companies of old, allow them to be distributed, or it could be when the copyright runs out. Either way, if CAPS get's it's way - at least we all will have the choice when the time comes.

So, to get to the point, CAPS have now developed the technology to read *any* protection or disk format that has been found by them so far, and they have developed a "abstract digital recording medium", the "Interchangable Preservation Format", or IPF, to allow these disks to be preserved how they were always meant to be found: guaranteed unmodified from the original mastering and error free. They come complete with all the copy protection that existed on the physical disk. In fact, the technology is not really tied to the Amiga, in the future it could be used to preserve other systems games, like PC, Atari ST, Mac, or even C64 disks!

The aim of CAPS is to preserve every single Amiga game that can be found. They themselves own several thousand games, and the thought of not being able to play them in the future is what really drives them.

Now the time has come to actually releasing the games that have been contributed by CAPS and by others to the community. Support for the images has been added to WinUAE (http://www.winuae.net), and CAPS have started working on a "re-mastering" solution to write the images back to disk for those people who would like to fix originals that have already suffered bit rot.

However, no images will be available from the website, as CAPS are only providing the technology and are not an Amiga games download site. The only game available to download is Abandoned Places 2 - because the author is the founder of CAPS and has provided it to the Amiga community. Hopefully people who own the games will be able to get hold of them, and the legal Amiga games websites can host whatever games they they have permission for.

So, if you happen to have any original Amiga games and are willing to help, why not contact CAPS so they can provide you will the tools to preserve your Amiga games for the future!

WW is one to cross off your list Twistin' ? :)

NO GAMES ARE, OR EVER WILL BE, AVAILABLE FROM THE CAPS SITE

[andreas]

However, no images will be available from the website, as CAPS are only providing the technology and are not an Amiga games download site.

But that's why dozens of people visited your site!
Am I lying? People, speak up!

And don't remember most games you have CAPS images from are such rarities that almost no one has originals of them anymore!

I can't help saying it's a kind of sneaky trick you played on all of us. You could have played with open cards and told this to everybody before you made that "funny" countdown on the CAPS page.
Please remove the note that the "dumps database will be online soon" because it's simply not the truth if you plan to not release any of the dumps anyway. What's a dumps database for then?
Thumbs down. :shocked

[fiath]

???

We have *always* said we will not provide the games from the site. Look at the FAQ (and elsewhere)! We are not an Amiga game download site - we are just behind the technology!

We do not have permission to host the games for a start. There is no point risking CAPS over some stupid copyright dispute!

As for rarities: I don't think there exists even a crack of Wizard Warz, it is "hyper rare". ;)

I can't see any trick played on anyone. I have NEVER said we would be offering games to people. Does WHDLoad pages offer games to download?

Believe me, CAPS releases will be easy enough to get very soon.

Dumps database: You have taken that the wrong way. But I agree it is misleading - I will change it. It means a database of all games we have dumps for. Information about them - not the games themselves!

[andreas]

Well, if people are so kind enough to offer their dumps to the community.
Now then, I might have understood everything the wrong way, sorry for that. But I admit I did set my hopes much higher than having to press my nose against the display window, seeing all the goodies in there but not being able to reach any of them :p

Anyway, my point stays: a "dumps database" suggests that there's dumps available for download. If there isn't, another name might be more appropriate ;)

[Feltzkrone]

PROGRAM Truth;
USES FAQ, Reading_Capabilities;

BEGIN
writeln('EVERYTIME it was clear that CAPS don't offer the dumps on a download page. You should have read the FAQ more carefully. As fiath said some titles will appear on websites which have permission to offer disk images for free download. I hope BTTR will carry some of them. Another possible way to get those files will be usenet access (alt.binaries.emulators.misc), if someone is nice enough to put the dumps in there. But at NO TIME it was about releasing images on a download page or something similar. I don't like it that way, but one definetly can't say that CAPS just fooled us.');
END.

[fiath]

@andreas

Another thing. I *assumed* people had read the FAQ and knew we would never offer anything for download from the site. I guess in retrospect that this is rarely the case. But I have always assumed everybody knew that and why I never thought to mention it.

After the HUGE technical feat accomplished. Something that has taken TWO YEARS to bear fruit. Does it really matter that you cannot download the games directly from us?

I think you are being rather unfair.

[andreas]

No, just disappointed reading the HUGE "headline" in this forum :(
Therefore I admit my reaction might have been a little too harsh.
But I was so keen on testing first images on new WinUAE, possibly to find bugs for Toni who could fix them for the next release :p
But no fixes without images. Plain and simple.
No complaint, just hard facts. :)

[fiath]

Originally posted by andreas
Well, if people are so kind enough to offer their dumps to the community.

I doubt there will ever be a CAPS release that does not spead like wildfire.

But not only that, legals games sites (BTTR, ASO) will get the images if they have permission to host them.

Also the copyright holders will get them if we can reach them.


Now then, I might have understood everything the wrong way, sorry for that. But I admit I did set my hopes much higher than having to press my nose against the display window, seeing all the goodies in there but can't reach them :p


No problem. If I ever thought anyone thought that, I would have made it more clear.

I think you can see the reasons for it. Like, how many times has BTTR been threatend by the IDSA down for their LEGAL downloads?


Anyway, my point stays: a "dumps database" suggests that there's dumps available for download. If there isn't, another name might be more appropriate ;)

Yes. Agreed. As I said, I will change that.

[Feltzkrone]

As that post assigned to me? If yes, no way, your work is great, simply great, and the ability to download games directly from your site would just have been the cream in a hot chocolate. Anyway, hot chocolate without cream is VERY nice, too... :D

[andreas]

Doubtful :lol

[Feltzkrone]

You're damned to fast... :D

Originally posted by andreas
Anyway, my point stays: a "dumps database" suggests that there's dumps available for download.

So TOSEC claims to offer games for download, too? ;)

Originally posted by andreas
Doubtful.

Yeah, Jägermeister is much better than that!

[fiath]

Feltzkrone: No, of course not, I replied directly, but you snuck in there ahead of me! :)

Okay, games page updated:

"PLEASE NOTE: The database listing what games are actually dumped will be online soon."

[andreas]

Originally posted by fiath
I doubt there will ever be a CAPS release that does not spead like wildfire.

Which could again be BAD!!

Imagine if some people *think* their original is still 100%, and they dump it "for charity reasons" and spread it on some usenet group or wherever.
This might create a new load of broken "original CAPS images" if the original isn't in unbroken condition, mightn't it? :shocked
And if a release came directly from CAPS (or BTTR), it would be WAY better because there's a kind of certainty that the CAPS image was created from an error-free original! :nervous

[fiath]

The key word here is *release*. ;) For any contributor, we know if they own the games - so we can give them the verified "IPF".

CAPS dumps and CAPS releases are very different things. For one thing, nobody can use CAPS dumps but us... This is on purpose for exactly the reasons you mentioned...

Nobody will spead CAPS *dumps*, purely because nobody can use them! :)

[andreas]

Unless emulators like WinUAE can read them. :p
So forbid Toni to include support for the *dumps* so that they don't get spread by accident ;)

[fiath]

Emulators are not able to read the dump files. They are completely different, not documented and you wouldn't be able to use them for playing the games anyway.

So, even if somebody (anybody) wanted to add support for dump files in an emulator - they would not be able to.

There is *no way* these would be spread, and we don't really care if they are - because people just **cannot** use them.

Don't worry - we have already thought about this. :)

[andreas]

Hehe, thought so :D

[MethodGit]

Does this mean we will have to wait longer again before the first CAPS image is downloadable from a trusted site?

The new WinUAE just burst out onto the scene and I'm dying to try out the CAPS support feature! :D

[fiath]

As soon as you see the CAPS release, you can find out if it is authentic as I am just about to put a "dat" file on the site with all the file CRC information...

You should be able to find it very soon now. ;)

[Amigaboy]

I'm fairly disappointed...
I was always under the impression that any support added by WinUAE (or anything that uses the DLL) would allow us to use the raw output given by the CAPS imager.
I was hoping this would be the case....Personally, I wanted to image all of my original disks only for storage purposes, knowing that if ever need be, I could use these images. My intention was always to preserve my disks rather than to distribute...
Now that I know we can only use images provided by CAPS, there's no point IMO. It defies the whole purpose of preservation, because in reality, you can only preserve what the CAPS team releases.
To be honest, I'm hoping the remastering tool(s) you provide will be able to write these Raw images back to disk. If it can't, then I can say that I don't plan on ever using the CAPS tools.

I think you should provide Official CAPS releases in IPF format (as you already plan)....for those that want them, get the TOSEC datfile and download them all to have the Official set.
If this happens, then any raw images floating around are definately UNOFFICIAL. CAPS has no association with them. Noone is forced to download them, but they are still usable images.
Also, using the Raw image format is a definite bonus to the WHDLoad team. Rather than using MFMWarp (or similar) to image the disks, the user can simply image their disks and send them directly to WHDLoad team members who can write the image back to disk and have the disk sitting with them as if it were posted to them.

Don't get me wrong fiath....I've always been a supporter of CAPS and I realise how much effort has been put into this project, but I can't support it as much as I used to.

[fiath]

Originally posted by Amigaboy
I'm fairly disappointed...


I'm sorry to hear that...


I was always under the impression that any support added by WinUAE (or anything that uses the DLL) would allow us to use the raw output given by the CAPS imager.
I was hoping this would be the case....Personally, I wanted to image all of my original disks only for storage purposes, knowing that if ever need be, I could use these images. My intention was always to preserve my disks rather than to distribute...
Now that I know we can only use images provided by CAPS, there's no point IMO. It defies the whole purpose of preservation, because in reality, you can only preserve what the CAPS team releases.


Ah, but you are forgetting one MAJOR point. How do you know if your disk have been modified or have errors? You don't! If we did not care about data integrity then we could have had our first release ABOUT A YEAR AGO.

We have always explained these reasons on the WIP. For a small summary, look at the Feb 2002 WIP.

We have had HUNDREDS of duff (virus, modified, errored) disks that have been dumped. Do you really want these broken disks floating about the net? We don't!

Do you want emulation to get better? Well now we know that the disks are 100% correct, authors know they do not have to worry about the data being bad (or bad crack, whatever).


To be honest, I'm hoping the remastering tool(s) you provide will be able to write these Raw images back to disk. If it can't, then I can say that I don't plan on ever using the CAPS tools.


Actually, it is IMPOSSIBLE to do that and expect it to work. We could not let you do that even if we wanted to. The reasons are explained in the WIP's. But very basically: You need to know what your writing, and HOW you write it before you can *actually* write it.

Sorry, there is nothing we can do about that. It simply cannot be done reliably. This is another reason we are doing it how we are.

If you want more detailed info as to *why* this is the case, let me know and I will try to explain it.


I think you should provide Official CAPS releases in IPF format (as you already plan)....for those that want them, get the TOSEC datfile and download them all to have the Official set.
If this happens, then any raw images floating around are definately UNOFFICIAL. CAPS has no association with them. Noone is forced to download them, but they are still usable images.


As I said, there is no point (for reasons above). People cannot use them - even if we wanted this.


Also, using the Raw image format is a definite bonus to the WHDLoad team. Rather than using MFMWarp (or similar) to image the disks, the user can simply image their disks and send them directly to WHDLoad team members who can write the image back to disk and have the disk sitting with them as if it were posted to them.


This is planned - we are talking to them. However, it can only be done for release images.


Don't get me wrong fiath....I've always been a supporter of CAPS and I realise how much effort has been put into this project, but I can't support it as much as I used to.

No problem. Constructive critisism is good to keep people on their toes. However, I hope I have explained why none of what you would like with dump images is possible.

I am sorry you feel that way, it is mostly because we cannot do anything about it, but partly because we have invested so much time (and money) making sure we have 100% correct Amiga games, that I really think what you want is a bad idea in the long run.

Anyway, let me know how you feel now. And any questions, then just pump them here...

[fiath]

More about writing dump images back to disk.

You know the trace machines that duplicated all your Amiga games? Well even they have to have a "description" file to tell them HOW to write a disk format.

This description file is written in a disk structure description language called "Freeform" and was developed by "Magnetic Design Corp".

You may be interested to hear that our own disk description language is partially based on the Freeform language!

Anwyay, I hope this goes a little towards explaining why it MUST be done this way, rather that what *we* would like.

[Amigaboy]

ok....Knowing that it's virtually impossible to write back to disk, I take back just about everything I said....

As for the modified original thing, this isn't an issue with me...As I said before, it's simply to back up my own personal collection. If my originals have viruses, then I want an image of it. It's just so I know I can step on my originals and use them as frisbees.



You need to know what your writing, and HOW you write it before you can *actually* write it.



Actually, is there no way of writing the specific disk details onto the disk? While imaging, it refers to some database (or whatever), determines the necessary details and writes the image? By doing so, it allows the image to be written back to disk at a later stage....If this isn't possible either, then I'll shut up and go back to my Street Fightering

Thanks for the info though fiath

[Andrew]

Keep up the good work Fiath!

Hopefully in a 100 years time, people will be able to experience Amiga games and we experienced them all those years ago. And CAPS would make this possible. sounds good to me :)

[fiath]

@ Amigaboy

Yeah, no worries. Honestly - we wouldn't be so fanatic about it if it wasn't really necessary!

Anyway, yeah - that is what is an IPF file all about! It holds enough information to make a disk reproducable in either memory (ie emulators, whdload installs etc) or in its physical form.

It is your "database" if you like.

Spot on ;)

[fiath]

Originally posted by Amigaboy
It's just so I know I can step on my originals and use them as frisbees.

You'd be very sad to find out months later that the disk must be redumped and your disk is already wasted ;)

That is the whole point of the analysation process: making it sure that what we have is a perfect dump of a game, so it is in fact preserved (and will stay preserved till eternity) and not just dumped (and if the dump/disk fails only people who actually want to and do use them will find out and it will be way too late at that time).

I guess you see now why it is all so important now. :)

[Fjrb]

Hi,

I was always under the impression that any support added by WinUAE (or anything that uses the DLL) would allow us to use the raw output given by the CAPS imager.

No idea how you might have gotten that impression, since it's something mentioned throughout with precise careful distinction.

Moreover, why would anyone even want to use a Raw Dump ? That may contain errors that need to be checked, worked upon, and stamped with a "seal of quality". CAPS is by doing this, out of it's own work and time spent, assuring an owner that that IPF CAPS perservation will work for you in 10, 20, 50, 100 years. Instead of having a very nasty surprise one day.

CAPS preservation actions aren't also limited to just dumping games, but, truly preserving them: Covers, Manuals, etc ...

I was hoping this would be the case....Personally, I wanted to image all of my original disks only for storage purposes, knowing that if ever need be, I could use these images. My intention was always to preserve my disks rather than to distribute...

If your intention is to preserve, although this isn't CAPS main intent, you can still have Raw Dumps, and decide later on to make them go the extra mile and make them release quality assured material. Will you be able to use them? No, but they sure will be in a better place than on an ever decaying magnetic media ... and that's what preservation is.

Regarding the "Raw Dumps" subject i believe there's major missunderstanding, these are nothing of real importance, and they're merely a chrysalis of the oncoming CAPS preserved final format. They're a tool, an intermediate phase, merely that. Just the way an antiques seller treats and brings the original beauty before selling a product once again.

Now that I know we can only use images provided by CAPS, there's no point IMO. It defies the whole purpose of preservation, because in reality, you can only preserve what the CAPS team releases.

Quite the opposite. This measure is the backbone of any hope for quality and true preservation of the works of art 16bit Amiga Classic games were. The CAPS team is working day and night to process all the requests for preservation.

If you wanted everyone "releasing" images, untested dumps, bug ridden images, anarchic, ilegal, unorganized dumps flying all over the place, then you're right - CAPS is not about that. And much more in the vein of the organisation of something like MAME.

To be honest, I'm hoping the remastering tool(s) you provide will be able to write these Raw images back to disk. If it can't, then I can say that I don't plan on ever using the CAPS tools.

Not sure if that's decided quite yet, but you can easily realise ... what if the Raw Dump is not in perfect shape for using ? What if it contains errors ? Errors you may not notice until too late ? Surely the re-mastering would suffer as much as the digital conservation via Raw Dump without testing.

I think you should provide Official CAPS releases in IPF format (as you already plan)....for those that want them

For those who own them. As a service. You can easily realise that those games are not ours to "distribute" and you'll never see CAPS doing that. If you find any on the web, then by all means, go ahead, be my guest ;) Of course, as mentioned legal copies can be distributed by whoever has permissions, websites or original developers - This is the first time, ever, that preservation of the true game is available, this is exciting for game makers who which to truly preserve their games, until now, they had no chance of that.

get the TOSEC datfile and download them all to have the Official set.

Never heard anyone saying otherwise, however, as you can probably guess, you won't download them of the CAPS site.

If this happens, then any raw images floating around are definately UNOFFICIAL. CAPS has no association with them.

Yes, you can be sure of that.

Noone is forced to download them, but they are still usable images.

No. They're completely useless images. They're very useful for CAPS though. And can be turned preserved and useful.

No point in destributing them, really, anyone doing it will simply be wasting their bandwidth.

Also, using the Raw image format is a definite bonus to the WHDLoad team.

And ? If they WHDLoad team wants access, CAPS is always contactable - Attention, CAPS is not totally unlimited in what regards access to dumps. CAPS created a technological solution for preservation, it did not create the games, and we're as limited as the writer of Winzip is of spreading ZIP files with whatever content in it.

Rather than using MFMWarp (or similar) to image the disks, the user can simply image their disks and send them directly to WHDLoad team members who can write the image back to disk and have the disk sitting with them as if it were posted to them.

And you can't do that with the CAPS team ... ?

Let me put this example to you, here's MrLuigi ( ;-) ) and MrLuigi decided to pick up is Raw Dump, and send it to WDHL team, and received his disk remastered (god knows why he didn't went to the source and have done it with CAPS, but that's not the point) then all of a sudden he dies, the disk gets thrown into the trash, game lost forever.

Is this preservation ?

And CAPS is here to preservate, as a service to a community, as much as we'd like to (?) we're not a service where individuals can get their copies remastered for free ...

And, again, by using a Raw Dump you'd be using an untested, unassured, remaster. I don't know to what extent you'd be getting any better of with a cracked ADF. This assurance is the whole point of preservation ... would you preserve Roman Artifacts together with rocks, soil, dust, etc ... no you have to work it up. in a sense CAPS does that as well, it's not merely a Dump station. It's a true preservation station.

Don't get me wrong fiath....I've always been a supporter of CAPS and I realise how much effort has been put into this project, but I can't support it as much as I used to.

"You should have read the godamned FAQ damn it!"

:)

Then again, i believe most of your points of conflict come out of missunderstanding of how things will play out. Things will become clearly with time.

Also, please visit www.mame.dk, you'll see a full database, and no downloads, at one point, it had the full MAME set. Please find out what happened to that site.

CAPS produced a brilliant revolutionary piece of technology, it'd be foolish to put it all to risk for a quick pleasure fix.

Later,
Fjrb

[Amigaboy]

You keep mentioning quality...I realise that this is the goal of CAPS, but this isn't my goal. As I said before "it's simply to back up my own personal collection. If my originals have viruses, then I want an image of it.". Quality is not an issue. I just need assurance that I have an exact copy of my disk.


And ? If they WHDLoad team wants access, CAPS is always contactable


The problem with this is, a 3rd party becomes involved. The WHDLoad process has always been:
User -> Send Original Disk/Image -> WHDLoad Slave Writer -> Creates Slave -> Releases Slave
CAPS would be placed somewhere in there...at that point, the WHDLoad team would have to wait for the CAPS team to be done converting the image to the IPF format....If this doesn't take long, then it's fine, but if it takes anything more than a couple of days, then it's useless.....
btw - How long does it take to convert from the Raw image to IPF?

Oh yeah...I never intended for CAPS to release the images on their own site. I've seen numerous sites being shut down due to that...


Also, please visit www.mame.dk, you'll see a full database, and no downloads, at one point, it had the full MAME set. Please find out what happened to that site.


teehee.....I'm the one person you shouldn't be saying that too. I know MAME (and anything related to MAME) like the back of my hand.

You're right in saying that most of what I said was from misunderstanding....fiath explained everything clearly....Even so, I won't be using the CAPS tools until the output from them becomes usable in some way (if ever)....sorry to disappoint ya's

[fiath]

Fjrb: Writing CAPS dumps to disk cannot be done. :p

Originally posted by Amigaboy
CAPS would be placed somewhere in there...at that point, the WHDLoad team would have to wait for the CAPS team to be done converting the image to the IPF format....If this doesn't take long, then it's fine, but if it takes anything more than a couple of days, then it's useless.....
btw - How long does it take to convert from the Raw image to IPF?

If the disk format is fully known, then about.. 3-4 seconds? :) It is done automatically by some highly complex software.

If it is not known (less and less common ;), then it needs to be reverse engineered, which can take anything from 5 minutes to several hours, maybe even more looking for integrity info and working out how the CRC algos work. But the guy that does it is *extreamly* clever.

The thing that takes time though, is the packaging up. Like, artwork scans etc. You will see what I mean if you look at a CAPS release.

Anyway, no worries. I am glad you know more about it now! :)

[Amigaboy]

If the disk format is fully known, then about.. 3-4 seconds? It is done automatically by some highly complex software.

If it is not known (less and less common , then it needs to be reverse engineered, which can take anything from 5 minutes to several hours, maybe even more looking for integrity info and working out how the CRC algos work. But the guy that does it is *extreamly* clever.

The thing that takes time though, is the packaging up. Like, artwork scans etc. You will see what I mean if you look at a CAPS release.


Knowing that, then it's a viable option to send the image to CAPS before sending to WHDLoad, only because it takes less than a day (in most cases)


Anyway, no worries. I am glad you know more about it now!


Me too :)

[fiath]

Originally posted by Amigaboy
Knowing that, then it's a viable option to send the image to CAPS before sending to WHDLoad, only because it takes less than a day (in most cases)


Don't forget we need to port the library to the Amiga before the WHDLoad guys can take advantage of CAPS images.

Probably some time early next year.

[Fjrb]

Hi,

You keep mentioning quality...I realise that this is the goal of CAPS, but this isn't my goal.

Granted, but when you say something like what CAPS isn't doing isn't preservation, i have to point out, it's exactly the opposite. What you described was that you were hoping that it was a personal backup tool - and that, it isn't (in a way) - it's a preservation tool, and at that, believe me, it is, with all the details geared into that objective. As of the moment a game is Preserved ... it's saved. Forever.

This is preservation.

As I said before "it's simply to back up my own personal collection.

But what if MrLuigi dies ... ? That's right you forgot MrLuigi didn't you :)

And he dies, and no copy remains, that's not preservation, that's extinction.

If my originals have viruses, then I want an image of it.". Quality is not an issue. I just need assurance that I have an exact copy of my disk.

You created quite the epitome of a paradox here. You can't really have the assurence of an exact copy of your disk without quality being an issue. It's bit like saying "i don't want quality, i just want quality."

Preservating a copy of a copy protected amiga game in a floppy, something that was impossible not long ago, is an involved and complex process, which requires quality assurence.

The problem with this is, a 3rd party becomes involved. The WHDLoad process has always been:
User -> Send Original Disk/Image -> WHDLoad Slave Writer -> Creates Slave -> Releases Slave

CAPS is a preservation effort, but if cooperation can be achieved, and can help people out there ...

Oh yeah...I never intended for CAPS to release the images on their own site. I've seen numerous sites being shut down due to that...

Yeah. Someone else said that. Sorry about that :)

...Even so, I won't be using the CAPS tools until the output from them becomes usable in some way (if ever)....

That's a falacy. CAPS tool output is usable in some way, and quite an outstanding way, creating a timeless perfect copy of an original amiga copy-protected game - Something claimed to be impossible not very long ago :)

It just isn't usable in the way you'd like it to be :) (and then again...)

[oldpx]

Let me put this example to you, here's MrLuigi ( ;-) ) and MrLuigi decided to pick up is Raw Dump, and send it to WDHL team, and received his disk remastered (god knows why he didn't went to the source and have done it with CAPS, but that's not the point) then all of a sudden he dies, the disk gets thrown into the trash, game lost forever.

Is this preservation ?

This example is VILEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!! I wouldn't care about preservarion of a floppy disk when i'm DEAD!! :lol

I don't think anyone will care about the difference between and adf and a caps image in 100 years, ar shorter (I actually doubt it's any real use to anyone at the moment.)

[Galahad/FLT]

Originally posted by fiath
???

We have *always* said we will not provide the games from the site. Look at the FAQ (and elsewhere)! We are not an Amiga game download site - we are just behind the technology!

We do not have permission to host the games for a start. There is no point risking CAPS over some stupid copyright dispute!

As for rarities: I don't think there exists even a crack of Wizard Warz, it is "hyper rare". ;)

I can't see any trick played on anyone. I have NEVER said we would be offering games to people. Does WHDLoad pages offer games to download?

Believe me, CAPS releases will be easy enough to get very soon.

Dumps database: You have taken that the wrong way. But I agree it is misleading - I will change it. It means a database of all games we have dumps for. Information about them - not the games themselves!

I have it cracked here, and a WHDLoad version, I just thought the game was so shit that no-one would remark its non-release!

No offence, but I think a more 'ground breaking' game would have been in order instead of Canvas Softwares 'non tour de force'!!

[fiath]

Hehe, yes, it is a very crap game!

But it is not the game, it is the symbolism. :p

[|cy[ool]

Just noticed this, during all the fuss going on around here.. :P

0000 57076f41 Wizard Wars 2382.adf

[NytroX86]

I've read so many things about CAPS now that I'm starting to get confused. So here is my simple question: In the future, when, for example, my Settlers disks get knackered, will CAPS be able to provide me with what I need to make new exact Settlers disks that I can play on a real Amiga.
I don't want cracks cos I agree they spoil games with their messages at the start or built in cheat menus. I would want an exact copies of the disks including the copy protection (I doubt my manual will degrade too much over time) that I can use to make replacement disks or to install the game to a hard drive, assuming in the future DD disks will be impossible to find.
If you can't and never will be able to use what CAPS are doing to put games on a real Amiga what exactly is the point? To preserve games to be used with emulators (Which I could live with as I accept my Amiga will probably die in the future)?
I hope you can clear things up for my because I think the principal behind CAPS is admirable, but I don't know how you plan to implement it.

[v8juice]

Originally posted by fiath
Hehe, yes, it is a very crap game!

But it is not the game, it is the symbolism. :p

Yes, finally, a release! With all the trimmings! Well worth the wait, there's nothing like integrity. Please continue & thank you very much!

[fiath]

Many games to be released are crap. Many Amiga games are crap.

But that is not really the point. The point is that as far as we were aware, this games was unavailable. That fact alone makes it a very high candidate for preservation. People who had the game could not replace it!

We never claimed it would be exclusive, we just said it was very rare, and it is! We did actually think that there was a crack available whatsoever, but the fact that there is/was doesn't really bother us. We are not in it for fame, we are in it to preserve Amiga games...

|cy[ool: does it work? ;)

[fiath]

Originally posted by NytroX86
I've read so many things about CAPS now that I'm starting to get confused. So here is my simple question: In the future, when, for example, my Settlers disks get knackered, will CAPS be able to provide me with what I need to make new exact Settlers disks that I can play on a real Amiga.
I don't want cracks cos I agree they spoil games with their messages at the start or built in cheat menus. I would want an exact copies of the disks including the copy protection (I doubt my manual will degrade too much over time) that I can use to make replacement disks or to install the game to a hard drive, assuming in the future DD disks will be impossible to find.
If you can't and never will be able to use what CAPS are doing to put games on a real Amiga what exactly is the point? To preserve games to be used with emulators (Which I could live with as I accept my Amiga will probably die in the future)?
I hope you can clear things up for my because I think the principal behind CAPS is admirable, but I don't know how you plan to implement it.


No, no, no. You cannot write *dump* files back to disk! Released files (such as WW) will be wriable as soon as we release the remastering program.

Writing the images back to disk is, and always has been our highest priority! We just thought people would like to see some stuff first, as it will be a few more months. ;)

[Ian]

LOL @ Galahad

And Faith, can you please answer this question:

I wanted to "Preserve" my OWN originals, with my OWN highscore/save game information already in place on a disk, would CAPS sort out these Images for me to write back to disk???

(Because you say there's no way the image file that is produced can be written back to disk without you guys playing with it)

Forget the fact it's not 100% original that matters nothing to me, I want to "Preserve" my OWN originals.

I want to "Preserve" my OWN disks.

(This is all theorical BTW as I have no originals, but this is what Amigaboy has been asking for his last 4 postings in this thread. Maybe a more direct phrasing of the question will get an answer:rolleyes)

[Jambo]

Just downloaded it, excellent! Love the scans :)

Excellent work guys, keep it up!

[andreas]

Think I've comprehended it now.

RAW images can't be written back to real disk, but apparently IPF images can, can't they? :confused

[Fjrb]

This example is VILEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!! I wouldn't care about preservarion of a floppy disk when i'm DEAD!!

Well CAPS is a project for people that care :)

I don't think anyone will care about the difference between and adf and a caps image in 100 years, ar shorter (I actually doubt it's any real use to anyone at the moment.)

I care. And i'm betting lots of people out there care. One thing is to get a cracked\ripped\unprotected\hacked ADF. Another is to get the full game, preserved, fully working, with manuals, cover box in full, etc ...

This isn't about your life, or my life, it's about AMIGA's life - And that will be preserved after we die; now, it will.

[Jambo]

Couldn’t you have picked a slightly less crap game for your first release though? :nervous

[Fjrb]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by fiath
Fjrb: Writing CAPS dumps to disk cannot be done. :p

Yes :) i didn't meant dumps but analysed IPF's, oh unbelievably sexy, extremely inteligent, almost in an unholy way patient one!

:P

[Fjrb]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jambo
Couldn’t you have picked a slightly less crap game for your first release though? :nervous

No :)

CAPS chose this one based on rarity. There was no ADF (all AFAIK) and it was on all MIA lists floating around. In a way it underlines the theme throughought the CAPS motto, it's not about flashy releases and pointless c0olness points, it's about true, serious preservation.

It's the same you love your own kid even if it's as ugly as yer own butt.

[andreas]

I got a candidate for next CAPS release, in behalf of Twist:

Tracker. :)
No ADF image (yet), nor any crack. Unless Icycool proves me wrong once again. :)

[Fjrb]

Originally posted by andreas
Think I've comprehended it now.

RAW images can't be written back to real disk, but apparently IPF images can, can't they? :confused

Ok, let me see if i can explain this in a simple way, notice i will use the wrong words to refer to what i'm referring to, but all in an effort to make it simple(r)

Raw Dumps, are exactly what the name is, they're Raw, and unusable as a Dump. There. Each game has it's own protection scheme (considered impossible to get around until now), now:

Even with original Trace Machines who costed a butload of cash ... You'd still need a descriptor for the Copy Protection Scheme ...!

That's how nasty it was in terms of copy protection. So nasty even on expensive trace machines, they alone, weren't enough to master a copy!

Ok. Now, if a trace machine needs it's descriptor or "driver" to use, master that same floppy, game; sure as well the Raw Dump needs one too ... (and a lot of other stuff, there's a great distance from a temporary Raw Dump and an IPF final CAPS file.)

As you're realising by now, now enters CAPS. And IPF. Raw Dumps, in it of itself are useless and unusable for *any* use. They're Raw and can't be used for anything.

[Fjrb]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by NytroX86
I've read so many things about CAPS now that I'm starting to get confused. So here is my simple question: In the future, when, for example, my Settlers disks get knackered, will CAPS be able to provide me with what I need to make new exact Settlers disks that I can play on a real Amiga.

Yes.

They already can in emulation .

I don't want cracks cos I agree they spoil games with their messages at the start or built in cheat menus.

And missing intros, content, endings ...

I would want an exact copies of the disks including the copy protection (I doubt my manual will degrade too much over time) that I can use to make replacement disks or to install the game to a hard drive, assuming in the future DD disks will be impossible to find.

Exactly :)

If you can't and never will be able to use what CAPS are doing to put games on a real Amiga what exactly is the point?

No one ever said that is true :)

To preserve games to be used with emulators (Which I could live with as I accept my Amiga will probably die in the future)?

That's very important as well. Picture this, as floppies die, so does hardware. To ensure long run preservation, emulation is the CAPS of hardware, it preserves the hardware

- As a side note, i'd also note that the CAPS event will contribute to better emulation as untill now emulator coders only had cracks and hack in their hands and when an emulation error occured they couldn't be sure if it was an emulation error or another hack screwing things up -

But also for lots of people who no longer have an amiga, or that as you, might one day see it break down, although strange for someone of who owns the real thing right now, is a major part of it, in the long run it definitely is, how many Amigas will be working 10 years from now ? What about in 2050 ? If you're not 50 already, chances are you'll still be alive and wanting to play that old game again ... but you're Amiga might not be.

I hope you can clear things up for my because I think the principal behind CAPS is admirable, but I don't know how you plan to implement it.

Check up the FAQ at the site www.caps-project.org , i'm guessing most people would be surprised realising most questions made here already answered there, and a bit more ;)

[Fjrb]

Originally posted by Ian
LOL @ Galahad

And Faith, can you please answer this question:

I wanted to "Preserve" my OWN originals, with my OWN highscore/save game information already in place on a disk, would CAPS sort out these Images for me to write back to disk???

(Because you say there's no way the image file that is produced can be written back to disk without you guys playing with it)

Forget the fact it's not 100% original that matters nothing to me, I want to "Preserve" my OWN originals.

I want to "Preserve" my OWN disks.

(This is all theorical BTW as I have no originals, but this is what Amigaboy has been asking for his last 4 postings in this thread. Maybe a more direct phrasing of the question will get an answer:rolleyes)

You can easily realise that, with hundreds of games to go, thousands of manual pages to go, and all the box covers in that, and a few dozen of copy protection schemes already gone, a few apps still to code and release as well as libraries and the testing and analysing of it all, as cruel as it might seem, conserving a personal backup of one of the six billions humans in this planet we live in, kinda takes a low priority tick in a mailbox overflowing with mails ...

;)

And CAPS members are keeping awake at 5am already, and I'm afraid there's no more hours in a day.

mmmmsleeep ....

[Twistin'Ghost]

Originally posted by Fjrb
You can easily realise that, with hundreds of games to go, thousands of manual pages to go, and all the box covers in that, and a few dozen of copy protection schemes already gone, a few apps still to code and release as well as libraries and the testing and analysing of it all, as cruel as it might seem, conserving a personal backup of one of the six billions humans in this planet we live in, kinda takes a low priority tick in a mailbox overflowing with mails ...
:laughing LOL!!! :great

[Fjrb]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Galahad/FLT
I have it cracked here, and a WHDLoad version, I just thought the game was so shit that no-one would remark its non-release!

Well that's how much we love Amiga games, we don't think any is sh*t :)

No offence, but I think a more 'ground breaking' game would have been in order instead of Canvas Softwares 'non tour de force'!!

We apart from all that was mentioned, we do not believe any Preservation is "ground breaking" at all apart from collectors item grading.

In all honesty CAPS is merely preserving a classic game, who is CAPS to announce 'ground breaking' 'releases' when we're not 'releasing' a game, merely preserving it; the same way a crack group doesn't 'release' a game, it cracks it. Game publishers release the game.

The very same way, Game Makers, do the 'ground breaking', CAPS would never break any ground by a game's content preservation - The Amiga game maker did! The same way, when a crack group 'releases' a game, it's not breaking any ground, be the game Speedball2, Gods, Kick Off II, SOFTB or the crack group Paradox, Crystal, Lemon, Melon, Quartex or Angels. The game makers did!

The breaking ground changes CAPS makes are all technologic. The tech advance that is to truly, absolutly, faithfully, preserve games, that being copy protected and on unstable magnetic media, were considered a lost cause protecting in it's purest pristine form.

This is all CAPS does, and it's everything CAPS does. We'll never appropriate or desire for us fame that pertains to outside individuals. We actually do this because we love their work and considered them artists, and their products arts, and as thus worthy of a quality marked faithful preservation.

CAPS is not about effemerate and appropriated 'fame'.

The first CAPS preservation isn't important because it was Wizard Wars or Speedball2, but because it was the first preservation ever...! Technical impossiblities were broken, new capabilities and possibilities were laid down. Who knows what will come next. Now, this, yes, is ground breaking.

:)

[Andrew]

How about the scanning of manuals/documentation to go with the games? or even the box covers?

I would be happy to help in this as collect original games, magazines and coverdisks.

[fiath]

Yes! Everything that comes with the game is scanned. We even preserve the disk label, audio tapes, etc.

Feel free to mail the contact address on the site! :)

[Andrew]

Nice. Keep up the good work!

[fiath]

Originally posted by Ian
LOL @ Galahad

And Faith, can you please answer this question:

I wanted to "Preserve" my OWN originals, with my OWN highscore/save game information already in place on a disk, would CAPS sort out these Images for me to write back to disk???

(Because you say there's no way the image file that is produced can be written back to disk without you guys playing with it)

Forget the fact it's not 100% original that matters nothing to me, I want to "Preserve" my OWN originals.

I want to "Preserve" my OWN disks.

(This is all theorical BTW as I have no originals, but this is what Amigaboy has been asking for his last 4 postings in this thread. Maybe a more direct phrasing of the question will get an answer:rolleyes)

Okay. I see.

Basically no. We are not interested in preserving a copy of games that are not what was originally on the disk at manufacture.

I can see why you might want your hiscores etc. but if one track is modified by hiscore, how do we know if part of the game on that track is also modified? Answer: We don't.

Even if we did, that is not what CAPS is above. Sorry, but that is just not what we are about!

UPDATE (just some more)
It is not preservation, it was not sold with your own highscores, with your own save games... Stick with cracks if they work for you.
Collectors generally want unaltered and complete games as they were sold originally.

And there were only a couple of versions of each game *sold in the shops* mostly PAL and NTSC versions, quite often only just one - this may be new to you ;) hunting down hundreds of images of the same game with a different cracker intro in a hope that the game does not crash at level 76.
:D

[RetroMan]

So well, some words from me !

I just had a look at the first release (and tested with WinUAE btw ;)) and I think it is GREAT !!!

You get everything you need to play a game, including the manual etc. ! This is really awesome, no more fake cracks, corrupt disk images etc. ......

Don´t get me wrong, I don´t want ADF´s to be replaced, adf´s are great to play those games on a real Amiga ! CAPS is THE perfect extension to ADF !!!!

Keep it that way :great Congrats :)

[fiath]

GUYS!

I just had some interesting mails come to me.

Wizard Warz is not a crap game!! Though it looks crappy. I didn't bother playing it much since I don't have time, but apparently it is similar to Archon. You need to read the manual etc. But then that is supplied...

Wizard Wars != Wizard Warz

There may be some confusion on that, the games are completely different. Wizard *Wars* IS a crap game though. ;)

@RetroMan, glad you like it. IPF's will be used on real Amiga's too soon.

[Fjrb]

Hi :)

I got contacted by the higher counsil of CAPS, and besides the usual beating, the counsil asked me to convey this message.

It seems as though the ADFs' mentioned as in possession by two persons here may not be the real Wizard Warz, but a so called "Wizard Wars", note the S and the Z. Anyone feel free to investigate the matter further, confirm it or deny it.

It is - by no means - a fulcral issue, but apparently, CAPS was and is correct and Wizard Warz existed nowhere. Thus making it's preservation all the more significant.


___M_e_s_s_a_g_e____


"Here you go the one on amiga lists: not really the preserved game from 16 years ago ;)

The same one I got from Hoild thinking it was the game I was looking for.

http://ftp.uni-paderborn.de/aminetbin/find?wizard+wars

WizardWar ***s***.lha game/misc Shareware strategy game


Short: Shareware strategy game

INTRODUCTION.
Wizard Wars is a shareware strategy game for the amiga. It runs under WB 1.3, 2.0 and (fingers crossed) 3.0. It requires about 450k of RAM, and multitasks quite happily. It is lacking fancy graphics, sound, and could do with improved gameplay, but otherwise it is quite playable with the sole exception that every minute or so a requester will pop-up asking you to register. (ReminderWare?)

The program that came with this doc file requires 2 fonts (sapphire-14 and garnet-9), and the diskfont.library before it'll work, if you don't have these in your fonts: and libs: directories you should copy them there. (If you don't the program will tell you what it needs, likewise should you not have enough contiguous memory available it'll tell you).

The shareware option mentioned above is as always completely discretionary, however you should support shareware authors as I know if I don't make any money out of this, I'll find something else to do (probably something very boring that doesn't pay well and leaves me with little spare time. Like a job - God forbid!). Anyway, I'm only asking for £8, It would be a fiver but after VAT, disks, postage and packing there'd be next to
nothing left for my time and effort.
In addition to salving your tender conscience, if you register, you'll receive back a bootable disk with the game on, a printed manual (which is invaluable if you want to be able to play the game properly - the notes that follow are brief and some gameplay is obscure), and perhaps most importantly, the chance to upgrade to the 'real' version of the game when it's completed for a few quid to cover costs.
This 'real' version is what I'd have liked Wizard wars to be all along, it'll have proper graphics by a real artist (and not my efforts), proper sound by a real musician (my efforts were so bad I couldn't bring myself to include them in this version), better gameplay (I learnt a lot from coding this game up, I've got lots of ideas that will be included to make things much more interesting), and basically turn this game into something that'll
rival some commercial games.
If you don't register, apart from the fact that I may not have enough money to pay the artists I've got interested in the project (whereupon obviously version 2 simply will not appear) version 2 will cost you quite a bit more than if you register now.

Shareware fees (£8) should made payable to 'NEBULA SOFTWARE' and
addressed to: Nebula Software,
42, Goldspink Lane,
Sandyford,
Newcastle upon Tyne.
NE2 1NR.
ENGLAND.

Like I said, you'll get a printed manual and self-booting disk back.



THE GAME.
Wizard Wars is a simple strategy game, you play a wizard in his tower who creates demons to send out to destroy the other wizards' towers.
The demons can move about (different terrain uses more movement points) by clicking on the adjacent hex you want it to move into. Note that you must have an active demon in order to move it, and that it must be displayed (ie, you can't move your demon if the map window is displaying anything else - like a targetted demon).
Demons can cast spells at other demons, to do this click the 'target' button until the required demon is displayed, and then click the button with the spell written on it - each demon has 3 spells, one attack, one defensive and one miscellaneous. Some spells can only be cast upon the
casting demon (like fly).

You'll need mana for most things, your wizard gets 25 points each turn plus extra for any captured cities and villages. Creating demons costs this mana, and is different from the mana the demons have to cast spells with (demons also use up 1 point of mana each turn simply to exist).

Each wizard has a flag, things possessed by him will have this flag above them on the display. The board/stats button brings up a full map of the play area, you can make different things flash (and at different rates using the slider at the side of the gadgets) to see who owns what, or to see where things are. The zig-zag line (border) that can be displayed shows what is seen on the map window on the main screen so you can see where you
are at the moment. If you set the slider to 0 (as far up as it'll go), the corresponding things will not flash but will remain highlighted.

The symbols on the fullmap are: v- village, c- city, #- castle, |?|-tower (? is the first letter of the wizard's name), ?- demon (? is the first letter of the owning wizard's name).

The above are brief notes on how to play, if you have difficulty,
please buy the manual from me - I worked hard to make it easy to
understand, unlike the above which I suppose'll be totally incomprehensible to you.

If you have any comments about this please contact me.
Andy Bolstridge, Nebula Software 1992.


============================= Archive contents =============================

Original Packed Ratio Date Time Name
-------- ------- ----- --------- -------- -------------
170376 50440 70.3% 16-Nov-92 01:02:24 WizardWars
4893 2371 51.5% 16-Nov-92 23:08:38 WizardWars.doc
914 349 61.8% 12-Nov-92 17:01:52 WizardWars.info
1279 634 50.4% 16-Nov-92 23:13:14 installation
-------- ------- ----- --------- --------
177462 53794 69.6% 02-Sep-95 00:00:00 4 files"

____E_n_d__of__m_e_s_s_a_g_e________

[fiath]

Originally posted by |cy[ool
Just noticed this, during all the fuss going on around here.. :P

0000 57076f41 Wizard Wars 2382.adf

It is Wizard Warz not Wizard Wars. The game you gave is a freeware/shareware game. It is even on Aminet!

http://www.aminet.net/aminet.cgi?string=Wizard+Wars

Update: Doh, Fjrb beat me to it.

[Fjrb]

Originally posted by RetroMan
So well, some words from me !

I just had a look at the first release (and tested with WinUAE btw ;)) and I think it is GREAT !!!

You get everything you need to play a game, including the manual etc. ! This is really awesome, no more fake cracks, corrupt disk images etc. ......

Don´t get me wrong, I don´t want ADF´s to be replaced, adf´s are great to play those games on a real Amiga ! CAPS is THE perfect extension to ADF !!!!

Keep it that way :great Congrats :)

Well, thanks a bunch in the name of everyone involved in the CAPS project ;)

You get everything you need to play a game, including the manual etc. ! This is really awesome, no more fake cracks, corrupt disk images etc. ......

There will be other goodies that will enhance the nostalgia experience, in the right time :)

It'll be pretty cool when you have an interesting list of Preserved Games all with nice boxes, covers, manuals, and other goodies that came along with the original, and browse through it just you can do with MAME frontends and MAME32.

I myself believe the Amiga deserved this for a long time.

Also a note for everyone is that the 10 megs of the Preservation Package include all of this media (covers,manual, etc), the "image" itself of the CAPS Final is a mere ~200kb :)

Oh, and yes, Retro;

adf´s are great to play those games on a real Amiga ! CAPS is THE perfect extension to ADF !!!!

They are great, without them with have nothing for all these years, but soon they'll not be the ones alone usable in a Real Amiga ;)

And as usual, even a "little" bit more than that ... :)

Edit: It seems as though this information can be completely disclosed, so, please enjoy it:

1, IPFs are not meant to replace adfs - they serve a very different purpose.

2, IPFs are carefully designed from the ground up to hold enough information to make it possible to remaster the games to play on a real amiga from disk or use it for installation etc. They hold all the information that the original game disk does plus a whole lot more that enables faithful reproduction in memory (emulation, installation) or on physical media (floppy disks).

[oldpx]

Will CAPS images be always that big? :shocked

[RetroMan]

Originally posted by Burseg
Will CAPS images always that big? :shocked
The image is very small (~200kb) ;) Most of the size is taken by the Manual in PDF and the box scans :D

Who cares :D (well, I think 56K Modem users will :cheese )

[v8juice]

Originally posted by Burseg
Will CAPS images always that big? :shocked

I hope so because they are worth it. Long live the Amiga.

[oldpx]

Hmm, there are JPG files inside the archive. JPG is the last format to use if "preservation" is the goal. I suggest Tiff files created with zip compression, and then rarred. Anyway I like what blackcornflake said on this thread (http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7761&highlight=pipe).

The crux of the matter for me is that the images created by scanning and subsequently displayed in HOL are just that - digital images, 1s and 0s. Not the actual boxes. Even a perfect scan with no treatment is not actually the real thing, so tweaking the digital image isn't really making it any more or less 'authentic'. The same concept was more eloquently put by the surrealist René Magritte in 1929, with the inscription below his painting of a pipe: "Ceci n'est pas une pipe" (This is not a pipe).

If you want to preserve a non-digital object, you best enbalm it like a mummy, for a copy, is just a copy and having it's own uniqueness, it is distinctive than the original.

[Fjrb]

Hi,

Originally posted by Burseg
Hmm, there are JPG files inside the archive

Oh god, call the firemen! ;)

JPG is the last format to use if "preservation" is the goal.

Actually it's the first, due to practicality issues. CAPS has looked hard at all formats in the quest for the best perfomance\quality solutions.

Perhaps, if we all had ADSL and 120gig hd's we'd make another decision, but, having to deal with reality this is the only solution. Mind you not, though, CAPS has taken care that compression is at the very minium, looks faithful to the original, and comes out well when printed.

I suggest Tiff files created with zip compression, and then rarred.

Probably resulting in still high sizes. And well, we could have use all sorts of 10 step procedures, it simply is not a good decision for the end-user. Again, good luck on finding differences between the included and the possibly compressed under other formats.

If you want to preserve a non-digital object, you best enbalm it like a mummy, for a copy, is just a copy and having it's own uniqueness, it is distinctive than the original.

It's all just a race against time, we all as humans even are all but a race against time. Fight on, but a battle condemned to lost. Time rules all, everything.

Nevertheless instead of having decayed paper we'll have high quality scans. Mind you, scan that and keep it in BMP and it's still not a box, but a scan, thus "not the real thing". You have to draw the line somewhere and attempt, or, giving in to time, cease to try and accept defeat and do nothing.

Doing nothing IMHO is not acceptable.

[Amigaboy]

No offence to you when I say this Fjrb but.....Who are you? Are you one of the CAPS team or the biggest fanboy this planet has ever seen? ;)

Before now, I'd never heard of you (of course, my CAPS team knowledge extended as far as fiath and István :D). The only mention I see of you is that you redesigned the CAPS site

[fiath]

Yes, Fjrb has been in it since the beginning. :)

Top bloke.

He also did the old website, all the graphics and stuff and casts his sound mind to many of the decisions we have to make.

:)

[Amigaboy]

Originally posted by fiath
Yes, Fjrb has been in it since the beginning. :)

Top bloke.

He also did the old website, all the graphics and stuff and casts his sound mind to many of the decisions we have to make.

:)

ah. I see
Is there a list of CAPS team members anywhere? Makes it easier to suck up whenever there's a new release ;P

[andreas]

I scanned the whole site - there isn't...yet.
I agree that with every project in the world, the (main) members of the project should be named somewhere.

[Fjrb]

Originally posted by Amigaboy
ah. I see
Is there a list of CAPS team members anywhere? Makes it easier to suck up whenever there's a new release ;P

Christian doesn't like the ass kissing,
And Fjrb doesn't like the sucking up.

Besides, all the groupie vacancies are full. Perhaps one of them
gets knocked up and a position will open. Ya never know :)

Humour aside, people in CAPS are having so much stuff to do they probably won't even have time to think about PR stuff. It really gets hectic. Things are also so planned ahead that no outside influence is likely to affect decisions ... you could even say the CAPS team doesn't make decisions, it just picks up the most valid solutions, there very few "choices" made.

Man, i'm the biggest fanboy CAPS will ever have :cool

[Fjrb]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by andreas
I scanned the whole site - there isn't...yet.
I agree that with every project in the world, the (main) members of the project should be named somewhere.

There's section called credits in there, it has a few names :) Nothing would be possible without those people. I was especially touched by that contribution a parent on behalf of his son. It was also very impressive how some people contributed a lot of stuff in.

It also was a project that started with a call to the community, and although some people are in there for a lot of time and dedicated a lot of time and effort (and money) i guess they still see it as a community thing.

I guess none in CAPS make recognition a top priority or even a priority at all; i'd even venture if any of us had, we wouldn't come through. There was a major time in the beggining there was no recognition and a lot of silliness going around, if anyone had been after that they'd have given up.

I'd like personally to congratulate the guys that did those games 10 or 15 years ago, damn they were sweet pieces of art. So much we're still talking about them.

[oldpx]

Again, good luck on finding differences between the included and the possibly compressed under other formats.

The difference between a jpg and a tiff is far more visible to the eye than the difference between an adf and an ipf (assuming both disk images do work.)

Actually it's the first, due to practicality issues. CAPS has looked hard at all formats in the quest for the best perfomance\quality solutions.

An 200k ipf file in a 10mb archive doesn't seem very practical :D

[Fjrb]

Originally posted by Burseg
The difference between a jpg and a tiff is far more visible to the eye than the difference between an adf and an ipf (assuming both disk images do work.)

A complete falacy, you'd know the difference when your SOTB3 misses and intro on ADF and not in IPF, and it's a little bit more than a couple of pixels difference. One would also have to be close to blind to miss the intros, cracktros and trainers ;)

Scan something at 2000pixels, post a Tiff and then a 100% Jpeg. Invite everyone to see the difference with their eyes. Post it with 90% and invite them again.

An 200k ipf file in a 10mb archive doesn't seem very practical :D

If we had an even unperforming image format(s) chosen it woulnd't be 10megs. Perhaps more, and try that with real, full blown manuals.

CAPS releases prevervations. The game as it was original as pristine as it can be. Would you take an original at a store with no box ? No manual ? Surely no one in their right mind would ...

If the community wishes to strip them a part for convinience, then fine. They are completely free to do so. CAPS has decided to make a point by providing the whole experience in one package, the same way a store provides you the full product. This is geared to true collectioners and Amigaphiliacs. If you can't take the 10 megs (or more! soon) there's always ADF for you as long as you don't care about the incoviniences, or a seperate IPF if the community takes it under their hands to do so.

Anything else would cutting and ripping it. We all know the Amiga has had enough of that, and truly, at last deserves the quality treatment other platforms have gotten. So do it's fans. Why should be an Amiga fan inferior to a MAME fan ? Remember a few months ago, originals were given as a lost cause. As extinct. That's all changed now.

Hey, if ya want to download an UT ISO you'd have to lay down 1.4gigs pronto downloading, it's just the price one pays for quality. The detail that arises was the everyone was used to getting it all on 700k or less, but hey, you start eating better you start paying more :)

[Feltzkrone]

JPG at a high resolution is the best choice! And this has been done. The only thing I'd ask for is an edge preserving smooth filter (PSP) to reduce the artifacts shown as "color rings" known from each professional print. But you won't have to do this as with such a nice resolution anybody could do it him/herself.

@CAPS: :great

[|cy[ool]

on a slightly off topic about ripping.. wtf is this dat/program i see available feltz?..... its not nearly descriptive enough to rebiuld a disk
p.s.. i'm drunk

[oldpx]

A complete falacy, you'd know the difference when your SOTB3 misses and intro on ADF and not in IPF, and it's a little bit more than a couple of pixels difference. One would also have to be close to blind to miss the intros, cracktros and trainers

Naturally, I'm speaking of exact adf and ipfs ie. adf of an original. :rolleyes

Scan something at 2000pixels, post a Tiff and then a 100% Jpeg. Invite everyone to see the difference with their eyes. Post it with 90% and invite them again.

I'd love to make that test if I had a scanner here, anyway I know I can see the difference.

[manicx]

Oi!!! I didn't know C.A.P.S. need the manuals + disk scans too!!! I can provide those as my HP scanner is amazing!!! On my way to make some scans....

[Walker]

Originally posted by manicx
Oi!!! I didn't know C.A.P.S. need the manuals + disk scans too!!! I can provide those as my HP scanner is amazing!!! On my way to make some scans....

If the scans you make are not in HOL, please upload them to the HOL FTP. Thanks!

[fiath]

Originally posted by andreas
I scanned the whole site - there isn't...yet.
I agree that with every project in the world, the (main) members of the project should be named somewhere.

I don't think any of us care about fame, even the guy that basically made CAPS possible, who, above everybody else deserves it!

We just love Amiga games and now preserving them, our vision is coming reality.

On a different note, a new release soon.

[fiath]

Hi manicx! Here is the info:

SCANNING:

This is the scanning requirements for CAPS. I believe we need this stuff at a higher resolution that HOL (?), so if you can at this resolution, you can contribute to both!

Okay, we need Box (front, back and sides), manual, disk (for the label ;-), protection cards and anything else in the box. If you don't know what to do with something then just let us know!

The only thing you need to know is they should be scanned at ***300 dpi***.

File formats:
For high colour/detail scans, please use JPEG at 80-90 % quality.
If stuff is low-colour, or just text, then PNG should be used to avoid the artifacting of the JPEG format. Black and white stuff should be scanned in greyscale.

We should have a page up before long that explains about printing, and how the above requirements fit into it.

[Konrad]

One thing about protection codes: Breathless for example has a light red sheet with a bit lighter symbols on it. Hard to scan and just to see if you adjust color balance and contrast.
Similiar for TMNT. It has black paper with black gloss text.

I'm just curious what one has to do in this case: manipulate the picture himself or send it to you directly and you manage the rest ?

[fiath]

We supply two versions in the release, one original scan, the other, "print" version.

[Twistin'Ghost]

Marz, they are preserving ALL Amiga games, as bit rot can occur on any disk, regardless of disk format.

@CAPS Team
:great :great :great

[v8juice]

Just downloaded the 4 files, now what? Can't seem to figure out how to decode them...

[andreas]

Originally posted by v8juice
Just downloaded the 4 files, now what? Can't seem to figure out how to decode them...
Maybe dec0de12 can help :laughing:laughing
(ugh, I admit that was quite an indigestive one, hehe ;))

Seriously, open a DOS box, cd to the directory where you've downloaded the stuff and type:

[EDIT] Thanks to Belgarath for the suggestions to make it easier! :great

C:\> copy /b virus.zip.* virus.zipThis creates a file named virus.zip which you can open, e. g. with WinZip! :)
Note that the default order is alphabetically, so it WILL combine the file chunks using the correct order! :)

[Carlos Ace]

Its possible to wright back this images to a disk ?

[MethodGit]

I think that was one of their main priorities to this whole project, Carlos. :p

[RetroMan]

Originally posted by Carlos Ace
Its possible to wright back this images to a disk ?
Not yet :) Still Work in Progress :p

[Fjrb]

Originally posted by Carlos Ace
Its possible to wright back this images to a disk ?

Boas :cool

Sim, esse é um dos factores principais da CAPS, as imagens IPF serão mais tarde possiveis de remasterizar para uma diskette. Neste momento apenas falta criar a dita ferramenta. As IPF já contêm toda a informação para recriar os originais - essa era a parte mais dificil !

Talvez no primeiro semestre \ trimestre do próximo ano. Existem muitas releases por fazer e como será facil de adivinhar consomem bastante tempo ... há ainda algum trabalho em coisas que o pessoal de fora não pode saber ;) e que também consomem o seu tempo à CAPS.

Com a aplicação de remasterização, bastará uma IPF, uma diskette, e eis o milagre. É algo que ainda à meses era considerado impossivel, e a preservação de originais protegidos completemente condenada a ser perdida no tempo.

Tentar alguma info suplementar em www.caps-project.org

[MethodGit]

Heh, guess it's easier and cleverer to communicate to him through his native tongue... :D

I notice that it's frequently this guy called "Big G" who ups the CAPS releases to a.b.e.amiga. Does he/she happen to be a member of the team by any chance? ;)

[Jambo]

Originally posted by v8juice
Geeze, take my afternoon nap & see what happens... I notice it's also in alt.binaries.emulators.amiga...

Someone beat me to uploading it on abe.amiga ;)

[MethodGit]

Two more questions:

1) Don't CAPS archives usually offer JPGs of all sides of a game box? Why does BTTF II only feature the top and left sides of the box? Are the bottom and right ones 100% identical?

2) Are you concentrating solely on single-disk games first or will the next release happen to be a 2-disk game?

[Fjrb]

Originally posted by MethodGit
Two more questions:

1) Don't CAPS archives usually offer JPGs of all sides of a game box? Why does BTTF II only feature the top and left sides of the box? Are the bottom and right ones 100% identical?

2) Are you concentrating solely on single-disk games first or will the next release happen to be a 2-disk game?

2) Yes. That is true, not for much long though. We held 2 disk games a bit and because we plan ahead and 1 disk games took all the early slots.

I'll left 1) for Fiath :cool

[fiath]

Originally posted by MethodGit
Two more questions:

1) Don't CAPS archives usually offer JPGs of all sides of a game box? Why does BTTF II only feature the top and left sides of the box? Are the bottom and right ones 100% identical?


Yes, only when they are exactly the same are they not scanned / included in the archive. This is what the "rotate = 180" is in the XML - indicating that by doing that operation, you can get that side too.

This is for use by frontends.

[fiath]

Originally posted by MethodGit
I notice that it's frequently this guy called "Big G" who ups the CAPS releases to a.b.e.amiga. Does he/she happen to be a member of the team by any chance? ;)

I do not know who "Big G" is... It must be a contributor I guess. It could be a number of people, or none of them. I don't really care though, it is not our business to question what people do with games they own.

[Carlos Ace]

Originally posted by Fjrb
Boas :cool

Sim, esse é um dos factores principais da CAPS, as imagens IPF serão mais tarde possiveis de remasterizar para uma diskette. Neste momento apenas falta criar a dita ferramenta. As IPF já contêm toda a informação para recriar os originais - essa era a parte mais dificil !

Talvez no primeiro semestre \ trimestre do próximo ano. Existem muitas releases por fazer e como será facil de adivinhar consomem bastante tempo ... há ainda algum trabalho em coisas que o pessoal de fora não pode saber ;) e que também consomem o seu tempo à CAPS.

Com a aplicação de remasterização, bastará uma IPF, uma diskette, e eis o milagre. É algo que ainda à meses era considerado impossivel, e a preservação de originais protegidos completemente condenada a ser perdida no tempo.

Tentar alguma info suplementar em www.caps-project.org
Cool ;)
Obrigado pelos esclarecimentos. Embora já tivesse contactado os membros da CAPS, era para saber mais para quando era possivel.
Ainda bem que não sou o único Lusitano por estas paragens, e ainda por cima do Norte.

Thanx for the info my friend


Amigaboy Says:
oi! ENGLISH Amiga Board people! If you need to communicate in any other language, the PM system is just what you need

RCK Says:
+1 warning points on their two accounts. :P

[RCK]

@Toni & Caps-Team: what about one kind of ipz format (ipf zipped) supported by winuae + CAPSimg.dll ?

It's a pain to keep these 10Mb files for each game :p

[Fjrb]

Hi,

Originally posted by RCK
@Toni & Caps-Team: what about one kind of ipz format (ipf zipped) supported by winuae + CAPSimg.dll ?

It's a pain to keep these 10Mb files for each game :p

Hmm ... by now the real 'zip' interest would be to access Ipf file within a zip archive directly - pretty much like MAME does. There's some technicalities involved that haven't allowed that.

As for the Ipf itself, well, anyone can grab the Ipf out of the Zip and just use it, they're usually pretty small even when compared to Adz, Zipped Adf, et cetera.

So one doesn't really have to keep the 10 meg thing. They can rip the Ipf out and just use that.

I'll point out thought that the real enterest is keeping them, let's say, when numbers get to that, all in a CD-Rom. Let's say you had 100 games you contributed to CAPS and got back 100 CAPS releases back, you can keep them on CD-Rom, by volumes, and from there you get the games the 700 megs allow per CD, plus all the great stuff they came with. Which will certainly look better and cooler when there's something equivalent to the MAME32 and frontends.

For the bandwidth impaired, hard disk needin' pals, they can just keep their Ipf's.

[oldpx]

So one doesn't really have to keep the 10 meg thing. They can rip the Ipf out and just use that.

Not very practical for people who have a few ten thousand disk images :p

[fiath]

Originally posted by RCK
@Toni & Caps-Team: what about one kind of ipz format (ipf zipped) supported by winuae + CAPSimg.dll ?

Just to clarify: This is planned, but is not an immediately high priority. It requires us to add support in the CAPS library to read image data from memory before Toni can put it in WinUAE...

[Fjrb]

Originally posted by Burseg
Not very practical for people who have a few ten thousand disk images :p

That's funny because i only know people who have 5 :laughing

Anyway, if you happen to find anyone who's got tens of thousands of CAPS disk images, tip them this:

->Shove all images into a folder
->Open Winzip - www.winzip.com
->Go to folder, select all, extract to ...
->On extracted to folder, click "type" to sort them
->Select all minus .ipf's (holding shift and ctrl)
->Delete

Granted. It's not the "most" practical, but it'd be something one only has to do in it's life and it'd take what ? Five mins tops ? :cheese

[oldpx]

I assumed you were going to try to re-release any original amiga titles out there and I assumed you will succeed and then there will be people with lots of ips in the end.

That's funny because you don't seem to believe in it as much as I do. Being smart is to be able to implement a feature, or just explain that it is not planned, being smart-ass is anyway...I edited my post :p

[MethodGit]

I'll also be happy if CAPS-image-examining tools (like ADFOpus or ADFView) are made, or at least the aforementioned apps add support for IPFs soon. :)

Thing is, ADFOpus has never really worked properly for me when it comes to double-clicking on associated ADFs... so maybe it would be best if a new tool was made - but this isn't necessarily important anyhoo.

[MethodGit]

BTW, forgot to ask earlier - so it's possible to finally install games like Commando, Cybernoid II and Virus with WHDLoad in WinUAE thanks to the IPFs?

[Twistin'Ghost]

Originally posted by MethodGit
BTW, forgot to ask earlier - so it's possible to finally install games like Commando, Cybernoid II and Virus with WHDLoad in WinUAE thanks to the IPFs?
No, not yet. As discussed in a different thread (?), this support is forthcoming.

[Uukrul]

Originally posted by MethodGit
BTW, forgot to ask earlier - so it's possible to finally install games like Commando, Cybernoid II and Virus with WHDLoad in WinUAE thanks to the IPFs?

Try to install them and you'll see...

[Codetapper]

I'm not sure about what other people think but I reckon the whole project is centered far too much on emulator use at the moment.

When CAPS started it was hailed as "being able to reproduce your old disks" - the current state is that only people using emulators can use a few IPF files which have been released. The IPF's cannot be written back to disks and there is no source on the Amiga side for incorporating into tools like RawDIC.

I examined the IPF files and from what I can guess (since the developer archive documentation is practically non existant) if I have a lump of the IPF file from one "DATA" tag to the next "DATA" tag, I only need one CAPS function to convert that data back to MFM data and then at least real Amiga users would be able to image the games using RawDIC in WHDLoad installs.

It would be good if the Amiga source for this could be done ASAP. I personally can't see much use in converting the current entire CAPS support dll to the Amiga when in actual fact you only need a function equivalent to an XPK/XFD depacker to convert a lump of CAPS data for use by real Amigas. Then at least those of you like myself who use a real Amiga over an emulator can get some value out of the disks we have been dumping over the last year.

[fiath]

Originally posted by MethodGit
I'll also be happy if CAPS-image-examining tools (like ADFOpus or ADFView) are made, or at least the aforementioned apps add support for IPFs soon. :)

Thing is, ADFOpus has never really worked properly for me when it comes to double-clicking on associated ADFs... so maybe it would be best if a new tool was made - but this isn't necessarily important anyhoo.

No, nothing like this is planned. I don't really see the point? Could you could explain why you would want such a feature?

Original games probably have mostly custom file systems (and many have custom disk formats anyway) so you probably nearly always wouldn't see any files...

ADF's are such that this is naturally supported, but working with IPF's is a whole different ball game.

[fiath]

Originally posted by Codetapper
I'm not sure about what other people think but I reckon the whole project is centered far too much on emulator use at the moment.


I disagree. Amiga is the main priority. It always will be. However, the decision was made not to make people wait any longer, as the PC side was finished.

It also means we have got a slew of new contributors.


When CAPS started it was hailed as "being able to reproduce your old disks" - the current state is that only people using emulators can use a few IPF files which have been released. The IPF's cannot be written back to disks and there is no source on the Amiga side for incorporating into tools like RawDIC.


Library will be ported to Amiga in January hopefully.

Remastering tools are coming as soon as we can. They are being worked on - and with everything we do, we don't want it to be a "quick hack". I have no idea when they will be complete, and I don't want to ask, because I know what the answer will be...

I agree though that releasing stuff now may make people more impatient when they see files they cannot use...


I examined the IPF files and from what I can guess (since the developer archive documentation is practically non existant) if I have a lump of the IPF file from one "DATA" tag to the next "DATA" tag, I only need one CAPS function to convert that data back to MFM data and then at least real Amiga users would be able to image the games using RawDIC in WHDLoad installs.


Actually it is more complicated that you think, any MFM data stream must be generated based on the stored track & block descriptors defining the disk format.


It would be good if the Amiga source for this could be done ASAP.


I agree. But it is already the number 1 priority. It always has been, but we are really busy!


I personally can't see much use in converting the current entire CAPS support dll to the Amiga when in actual fact you only need a function equivalent to an XPK/XFD depacker to convert a lump of CAPS data for use by real Amigas. Then at least those of you like myself who use a real Amiga over an emulator can get some value out of the disks we have been dumping over the last year.

As I said, it is more complicated than that, I guess you see why now. The library needs to be ported, and there are some issues (mainly manpower) keeping it back.

Anyway, I see your argument. But please be sure we are going as fast as we possibly can with all this.

Do you think we should have waited with releases until we did the Amiga support? If we did that, we would have to have completed the (software) remastering tool too, and... so it goes on.

[Codetapper]

Library will be ported to Amiga in January hopefully.

Hoorah!

Actually it is more complicated that you think, any MFM data stream must be generated based on the stored track & block descriptors defining the disk format.

Does that mean that when a new disk format is analysed by the CAPS guys you have to update the library to be able to convert that particular IPF data stream back to the MFM data?

[Fjrb]

Originally posted by Burseg
I assumed you were going to try to re-release any original amiga titles out there and I assumed you will succeed and then there will be people with lots of ips in the end.

That's funny because you don't seem to believe in it as much as I do. Being smart is to be able to implement a feature, or just explain that it is not planned, being smart-ass is anyway...I edited my post :p

Being smart-ass ... is fun :)

In all reality, reading this is fun, because this is pure human behaviour. How many games did MAME implement on it's first five iterations ? Was WinUAE supporting zips on Rel 0.8.8 ? Heck how many games did the first UAE run ?

Thus, what CAPS achieved is an astounding sucess. The incredible amount of copy protections solved, amazing. Heck, the mere fact something impossible a few months ago is happening now; groundbreaking.

Again, a remarkable sucess.

But why did UAE never run all that much games on it's first release, or MAME many, and WinUAE presented zip support until not so long ago ?

The reason is very simple. People, who are working for free, wasting a butload of time, talent, and work, still, nevertheless, aren't able to deconstruct and contruct back again the world in one day and one night, for free, at your sole command. Does this seem like a question too you :

Not very practical for people who have a few ten thousand disk images :p

It isn't is it ? If it was i'd probably would have answered it, as i do many. Now, if you can be a smart-ass, why can't i ? Is there some uncanny reason why you can make silly comments and have all the fun and we can't ? :laughing

Now, let us have some fun for gods sake :cool

Zip support will be in when our people aren't staying awake till 4a.m. working for free anymore. That might be never btw :D

Codetapper wants remastering, now, you want zip support, now, let's make it a race: Whoever is able to provide the biggest money contribution will get his wish attended with full priority! Heck, we'll even throw in consultant services and advisory, for free.

Now, was that being smart-ass enough or what ? ;)

[Fjrb]

Originally posted by Codetapper
Does that mean that when a new disk format is analysed by the CAPS guys you have to update the library to be able to convert that particular IPF data stream back to the MFM data?

Corrected reply :

No, the format used in ipfs are "self-describing", using generic
descriptions for the various data items, that are derived from and by CTA scripts describing the real format, when the release file is written.
In other words (how to put this simple?) CTA scripts describing a format are translated to generic data generator instructions. Like you write any program on a high level language, and it gets translated to an obviously much simpler and commonly usable assembly or p-code.

But this does not mean the library will not be updated with new features etc, when they are added and ready, that's one of the reasons we choose a product independently upgradeable library approach.

:)

[oldpx]

It wasn't a question but it was a statement. Since I am the user I'll be having all the fun bitching about anything :D Seriously, you'll face far more annoying criticisms than mine, I were being constructive.

I have a valid point and I expected a serious response and you were not saying anything directly while you could just say "no, I don't agree". I know the answer, and rather than asking a rheterical question, I ask nothing. I think absence of ipz is a major drawback and I don't often ask anyone what to think.

Anyway, since you're sure that there will ever be approximately 5 ipf files on this planet at the same time, I give up my claims. :D

[Fjrb]

Originally posted by Burseg
It wasn't a question but it was a statement. Since I am the user I'll be having all the fun bitching about anything Seriously, you'll face far more annoying criticisms than mine, I were being constructive.

I have a valid point and I expected a serious response and you were not saying anything directly"

I had already answered that question one post above ...

"by now the real 'zip' interest would be to access Ipf file within a zip archive directly - pretty much like MAME does. There's some technicalities involved that haven't allowed that."

[oldpx]

Ok. So it's impossible? Possible?

[fiath]

Yes of course it is possible. I already answered this! :) Read my post (way) above.

Just other things are higher priority.

[oldpx]

Ok and let this be a lesson to you on how unsatisfied users can bitch endlessly. :p

[fiath]

*LOL*

[fiath]

Originally posted by MethodGit
BTW, forgot to ask earlier - so it's possible to finally install games like Commando, Cybernoid II and Virus with WHDLoad in WinUAE thanks to the IPFs?

Hehe, *that* is a very good observation. ;)

IPFs are original disk images.

Therefore, yes of course it is possible, so long the WHDLoad supported version of the game is the same version of the IPF and as long as UAE if fully compatible.

[Konrad]

Damn, everythime I see you avatar, fiath, I wonder where I've seen it before...yes I know, off topic :P.

[fiath]

I just picked it from the list of them as I love the game! I should change it though really.

You should seeing more of that particular character at some point... *cough*.

[fiath]

Originally posted by Burseg
I think absence of ipz is a major drawback and I don't often ask anyone what to think.

Okay, this has alredy been discussed but:

I doubt it would be called IPZ. This may imply to people that it is just a disk image. It is probably more likely to be called "zip" ;) but this depends on what Toni whats to do too. Personally, I am not one for corrupting file extensions, even if I do think relying on a file extension to tell a file type is silly anyway.

Amiga did it so much better, as always.

Anyway, it is just not important right now. That doesn't mean it will never be... Just that we provide something we think is wonderful and work to the limit because we love doing it (thank some of us are on holiday otherwise there would be a big ZERO releases right now) and people always want MORE. :shocked

[fiath]

On a different note:

I am not really phased by anybodies comments here. I prepared myself for worse. However, please try to be respectful because other people in CAPS may take offense. I am sure some of the comments here are not quite meant they way they can be interpreted (?), but please re-read what you say before you post because this board is read by important people in CAPS.

Nothing would happen if you DID offend people, CAPS is too important for that (we think anyway) just that it is not very nice. :p

I personally am doing this for free because I love it - I love doing it - I am doing it for **me**. I think the same goes for the other guys in CAPS (who do a lot more work on it than I do).

We always said we don't want fame - that is why we don't publically say who is in the project, and who does what. Because we don't care about that. We are doing it because we believe it is important.

Poll: Perhaps we should have stayed "a la Nicola" of MAME ?

(but then you wouldn't get any questions answered :p)

[Tourniquet]

Originally posted by fiath
Poll: Perhaps we should have stayed "a la Nicola" of MAME ?

But he's not quite so anonymous if you frequent Italian emulation newsgroups/boards. On another note I can't see how anyone could get upset by the comments so far.

(but then you wouldn't get any questions answered :p)

Ah, but you people are still pretty anonymous. I have no idea who has done what. There is no source like MAME to pour over or a thesis to read :)

I do have a couple of quick things I've thought of.
How does Caps handle saving? I guess it's possible that there are games that will rely on saving data back to the disk and of course you won't want to modify the .ipf file. So the changes could be saved to some form of diff file? (Obviously there won't be any thing interesting about the tracks in question).

And, um. Nope, it's gone.

[fiath]

I didn't know that about Nicola :)

Originally posted by Tourniquet
On another note I can't see how anyone could get upset by the comments so far.


Many small sparks ignite a large fire. ;) Not just EAB. I was just wanting people to stay nice, but of course *constructive* critisism is welcome. :)

It is probably very hard seeing people either talk down your work or ask for more - when you have spent such an incredible amount of effort on it already. I just want people to be aware of this. No more, no less.


Ah, but you people are still pretty anonymous. I have no idea who has done what. There is no source like MAME to pour over or a thesis to read :)


We credit external contributors to the project as much as possible, because without them our job would be much harder. This is not quite as good as it could be atm, since we do not have the dump database up yet.


I do have a couple of quick things I've thought of.
How does Caps handle saving? I guess it's possible that there are games that will rely on saving data back to the disk and of course you won't want to modify the .ipf file. So the changes could be saved to some form of diff file? (Obviously there won't be any thing interesting about the tracks in question).


In short: We don't. ;)

When the mastering tool is released any saving is done as the original disk did it (obviously).

Emulator implementation is not our responsibilty, but before Toni gets a mass of mails, I will tell you it has been done exactly as you described. I guess you will have to wait until the next (? - I guess) release... ;)

I guess it is not that important anyway until a game is released that does that.

[fiath]

Originally posted by Tourniquet
Ah, but you people are still pretty anonymous. I have no idea who has done what. There is no source like MAME to pour over or a thesis to read :)

You obviously have not read the WIP's from the beginning! :)

Thesis: read through the WIPs from day 1. It's quite interesting if you are into this sort of thing. Pretty boring for anyone else though. ;)

Sources: this is mostly due to the poor copyright issues surrounding the various Amiga IPs. In this nasty environment we have to prevent any kind of misuse of the IP - this is something we are forced to do, or everybody can say goodbye to the completely free image library and ipf files. We don't want that ! ;)

Maybe one day, maybe not. Either way, there is not a huge amount of point.

About us: we don't much care really. Perhaps this is unusal in any "scene", especially the Amiga one, but we are used to it from professional life. You might catch an easter egg one day though... If there is a lot of interest we might publish a few words on ourselves, but there are too many other more important things to do!

[Twistin'Ghost]

Well, I have been reading four pages of all this, ingesting it all, in addition to the various other related threads. Now I must make my comments.

@CAPS team
Thank you!

[Interceptor]

i think it's time a CAPS forum was made, this thread is huge.

whaddayareckon?

[RCK]

Originally posted by Interceptor
i think it's time a CAPS forum was made, this thread is huge.

whaddayareckon? not a bad idea :p
Fiath, agree + mod there ?

[fiath]

Okay, this might not be a bad idea! Just one thing, I don't know what is expected of mods on the forums... I only say this because I sometimes have very little time, even for CAPS.

Also, if we did do it, I would prefer it thought of as a discussion place for CAPS related stuff rather that an "official forum" purely because I don't want it to turn into some sort of support center. Is this okay?

Anyway, were you planning on moving all the current CAPS threads there? Just wondered. There is some great information in this thread in particular that I would like to put in the caps site FAQ...

[Amigaboy]

Originally posted by fiath
Okay, this might not be a bad idea! Just one thing, I don't know what is expected of mods on the forums... I only say this because I sometimes have very little time, even for CAPS.



Mods do shit all (I speak from experience)
Should you decide to become a mod, you'll basically just have to clean up the forum you'll be running, and doing whatever's necessary to stop people from flaming each other, etc. We're here to discuss, not to fight.
Oh. And we also try to prevent ***** (bahahaha. W@rez was censored out :D) requests. This is probably YOUR highest priority since you've made it abundantly clear that CAPS will not make their images available and that we have to look elsewhere for them.

[fiath]

Okay, thanks for that.

Anyway, that is another reason why the board should not be an official one since there is rather a conflict of interest there being The Zone so close by...

[MethodGit]

Originally posted by Interceptor
i think it's time a CAPS forum was made, this thread is huge.

whaddayareckon?

Hey, it's not like it's as humungous as this thread right here (http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1473). :rolleyes

[pcGTW_Webmaster]

I found some errors in the caps releases:

#1 (Wizard Warz)
The file name of the image is "WizardWarz.ipf" but the xml says "WizardWars.ipf".

#19 (Batman The Movie 1 disk)
The file name of the image should be "BatmanTheMovie_1disk.ipf". Otherwise it does not match with the xml.

btw: Why are the box scans of Batman The Movie so terrible ? I mean, the texts at the border were cut off. Not the best way to preserve a game... :rolleyes

[RCK]

Originally posted by fiath
Okay, discussing it with the guys, this is sounding like a really good idea. Would it be possible for us all to mod in case one person is unavailable (that is 4 people in all)? Of course. Which EAB's members ?

edit: subforum built.

[RCK]

Originally posted by fiath
Okay, thanks for that.

Anyway, that is another reason why the board should not be an official one since there is rather a conflict of interest there being The Zone so close by... btw, I'm bored to see most of the caps release there, I got a lot of members who have registered only to leech, and my bandwidth limit is growing every two day..

[pcGTW_Webmaster]

@RCK: Make the zone only accessible for members with at least 10 (or more) posts. This should solve the "leech" problem... :D

[Belgarath]

sorry for fillin the zone and reducing your available bandwith rck :sad

i think windowskiller's suggestion is a good one though
i won't flood the zone with any more caps releases, perhaps if we all stick to using irc for them in future?

[fiath]

Originally posted by WindowsKiller
I found some errors in the caps releases:

#1 (Wizard Warz)
The file name of the image is "WizardWarz.ipf" but the xml says "WizardWars.ipf".

#19 (Batman The Movie 1 disk)
The file name of the image should be "BatmanTheMovie_1disk.ipf". Otherwise it does not match with the xml.


Those errors are my own personal fault. Thanks for letting us know though!

Actually the gameinfo.xml's don't matter to much at the moment as they are not used. Soon a tool will be available to ensure your set is okay, and to update these files if needed. So either way, they are currently unimportant.


btw: Why are the box scans of Batman The Movie so terrible ? I mean, the texts at the border were cut off. Not the best way to preserve a game... :rolleyes

They are not "terrible" they are **PERFECT**. The original box is like that, you might be able to see it if you look closely.

We don't release stuff that is not as perfect as we can.

Of course, you would know this if you owned the original! :p

[fiath]

Sorry v. busy, will be back later, but I had to respond to that one! :cool

[pcGTW_Webmaster]

Originally posted by fiath
They are not "terrible" they are **PERFECT**. The original box is like that, you might be able to see it if you look closely.
They are not. ;) Look here: http://hol.abime.net/?id=57#boxscan

[Twistin'Ghost]

Originally posted by WindowsKiller
They are not. ;) Look here: http://hol.abime.net/?id=57#boxscan
Actually, those scans in HOL are abominable (sorry to whomever scanned them). They are saved at very low quality (compression setting 2 in Photoshop, non-optimised) - look at the artifacting on the disk. Yeesh! And they are way too dark. Can whomever scanned (or converted) those please re-do them? Or I can (pretty sure I have that game).

[Walker]

Originally posted by Twistin'Ghost
Actually, those scans in HOL are abominable (sorry to whomever scanned them). They are saved at very low quality (compression setting 2 in Photoshop, non-optimised) - look at the artifacting on the disk. Yeesh! And they are way too dark. Can whomever scanned (or converted) those please re-do them? Or I can (pretty sure I have that game).

Ahem... I have no idea why it looks that way. I uploaded a slightly better image, but it's still far from perfect. I have to rescan all my stuff one day.

[fiath]

Originally posted by WindowsKiller
They are not. ;) Look here: http://hol.abime.net/?id=57#boxscan

EDIT:
Looks like your right *on the box that was scanned*. Our box is exactly like the scanned version and hence why it is like that. You can see from the scan that the box ends with the writing...

So, the *scans* are not "terrible", it is the box. :p

So anyone want to submit a better scan to CAPS? 300 dpi remember! :)

UPDATE:
Like it or not boxes are different. Since we own each and every game preserved, we provide scans for the packaging we have. If you have a better looking one that you really own (possibly accompanied with disk images dumped) you can submit it for revision.

If it is of the required quality, and really adds a plus to the already
existing package, it will be later added to the xml and upgrade packages, and should be completely taken care of by the release maintainer utility, which will only be made available when we have written it.

[fiath]

Originally posted by RCK
btw, I'm bored to see most of the caps release there, I got a lot of members who have registered only to leech, and my bandwidth limit is growing every two day..

Ban them! :)

[Konrad]

And a new one. Monkey Island 2 this time.

[MethodGit]

Gadzooks. :) Wonder how big THAT will be? *bets on 50Mb+ :D*

[bippym]

Wait until the big flight sims, and games like Civilisation get released if you want to see big archives :eek

[fiath]

Originally posted by MethodGit
Gadzooks. :) Wonder how big THAT will be? *bets on 50Mb+ :D*

No way. Half that.

[MethodGit]

@bippym: you mean the archives will be big from all the manuals, maps, documents and stuff, right? I just thought MI2 would be humungous since it's an 11-disk game and all (and the first CAPS release to consist of more than 2 disks, fact fans!).

release location talk deleted

[nnever2000]

Post deleted, please read the C.A.P.S. forum rules - Fiath

[fiath]

Sorry guys, but I am afraid the C.A.P.S forum section of the EAB is the wrong place for talking about that kind of thing...

[MethodGit]

Meh. I forget what I said originally anyway. :p And what nnever said, too.

[andreas]

CAPS guys,

could anyone please tell me the difference between the newly released alternative version of Rainbow Islands (#26) and the first version you released (#12)?
I *did* play the first RI version till the end, and as I can rely on you guys, the thing behaved absolutely perfectly. No glitches, no in-game bugs. Whahey!

So where are the differences? :)

[IFW]

As for RA alt: we were thinking of a contest; if you find any differences, let us know ;)
Basically both releases are retail versions.
One of the versions is however newer, than the other and may or may not have some gameplay related things silently changed as well, not just the copy protection scheme... :)
I think #12 is a later version, but I'm not positive.

[Twistin'Ghost]

I know that the US release of the game is a more accurate representation of the arcade game, in that P1 and P2 have different colors, as in the coin-op version. Is that the difference?

[IFW]

Both of them are PAL versions, though quite often PAL games were sold in the US as NTSC versions. Until someone dumps an NTSC version of RA, we don't know.

[Codetapper]

I am assuming here that the second CAPS release of Rainbow Islands is the one I dumped from the Flight of Fantasy A500 pack.

If so, there is absolutely no difference between it and the first version except for track 0. The bootblock uses a different copylock in each version but none of that is actually used by the game so to all intents and purposes they are identical to each other.

Tracks 1-159 are identical on each version so I wouldn't bother playtesting this version as it will be the same as the previous one.

Now somebody must surely have the NTSC version somewhere?

[IFW]

Codetapper: no, it is not the free version. We'd have said if it was. As I said they are both retail versions and One fo them is an older release.
We have another budget/free version dumped, but we concentrate on retail versions whenever possible.
Both versions released make good use of Copylock, just try to copy them ;)

[andreas]

Originally posted by Codetapper
Tracks 1-159 are identical on each version so I wouldn't bother playtesting this version as it will be the same as the previous one.

Thanks a LOT for the infos, Codetapper! :great
(For the "warning" as well, preventing me from spending my time again playing this game ;))

BTW, you're not alone :) WindowsKiller posted exactly the same in the German forum (as much as "the difference is only a handful of characters, not more"), so we have one info now, proved by at least two people!
Sounds plausible.