the secret game project - the return

[gimbal]

It is summer, I'm starting to get more hobby time at home, it is that time again. I've pretty much halted development on LN2 because of multiple reasons (not a fun project anymore being the main reason, low interest from other people a close second). I've been working hard to get my current LevelBuilder application to a workable state so that I can use it myself for my next secret game project I've been plotting for about a month now.

This project is going to be more fun as it is going to be an Amiga game we all know, but I'm not going to directly port it; I'm going to use the assets to create a whole new adventure that will have the following characteristics:

- quite easy to implement for me, giving a high chance of success. I've done the trick before :) Most of the work will be in creating the world using LevelBuilder. This time I don't want a challenge, I want a finished product that is fun to play, replay and... expand!

- I am hoping for input from everyone BEFORE I start to build it. Right now I have not written any code yet, only put a design on paper and I ripped the assets from the original game to be able to use them in LevelBuilder. This is a project with the potential to become something really fun; I hope I can share it with you all.

- Even though I will build the basic world myself, other people will easily be able to extend the game world with LevelBuilder, if you feel so inclined. Or if you want, you can of course create a whole new world from scratch. I will be sure to create tutorial "levels" that demonstrate how to trigger events and such in the game.

- graphics, sounds and music will be easily moddable, for those artists among you who want to contribute.


I'm not revealing too much right now, first I want to get you lot intrigued again ;) I'll drop some more information and hints here and there, when the time is right.

[Cammy]

Cool, yet another game project is in the works :)

Do you have any target requirements yet? Will it be OCS, AGA or RTG?

Once you have some more details I can add it to the list of current Amiga game projects, where (hopefully) people will see how much help we all need with our work and give us a hand. Here's the list incase you missed it - http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=44747

Good luck, I hope it turns out the way you expect :)

[StingRay]

I'm 99% sure it won't be an Amiga game. The term "port" makes me believe that. :P

[TheCyberDruid]

I'm 99% sure it will be Java :D

[Shoonay]

Hey, what are you up to Gimbay?
I wanna betatest, I wanna make a Polish version (if there's not too much text :cheese), I wanna preserve a digital version! :crazy

[gimbal]

yes it will be a Java game, not an Amiga game ;) I was born too late to have such l33t knowledge, my skills reaches only as far back as 64k Dos.

BUT it will be an Amiga game reworked into something a lot cooler.


I wanna betatest, I wanna make a Polish version


It will all be possible, the game will contain a good amount of text :) But first I would hope for some idea spewing posts, as soon as the secret is unveiled ;)

Let me trickle some more details to keep you readers curious:

1) the game has a 2D sideview
2) it is one player only, although in the new concept there is nothing that stands in the way of a multiplayer version. Perhaps the sequel ;)
3) it contains many boss fights
4) even though my implementation is going to be fully tile based (16*16 tiles), the original is only partially so. Most of the levels are clearly built up out of tiles, with certain rare exceptions which seem to be placed at tile positions and then shifted a few pixels.

Enough for now, more hints will follow!

[Shoonay]

make some collectibles, and secrets, and secret collectibles, and super secret powerful items, and super secr...
...just satisfy us - achievements/upgrades/items/events/collectibles/secrets whores :D

[gimbal]

what can I say? It is all already in the design ;) Damn you 5h00n, you take the fun out of revealing the secret slowly!

[TheCyberDruid]

It sounds like Turrican, but that can't be ;) Damn, give me a hint that leads away from it now gimby :crazy

[gimbal]

it is not turrican. Satisfied?

[TheCyberDruid]

Yes, much better :D

[Shoonay]

Guess the screenshot is for revealing the secrets slowly, this thread must move on quickly before people will lost interest! ;)
news every day! hype! hype! :crazy

(and gimme, gimme! :D)

ps: can i helpz? i like figuring out secrets based on the game basics :cheese

[gimbal]

Meh, I tend to give away the hint because I desperately want people to guess it ;)

Okay one more hint: there are no guns.

[Retro-Nerd]

A Beam'em up? Something like Target Renegade or Final Fight? :)

[TheCyberDruid]

Platformer... not Bitmap Brothers... hmm, Chuck Rock? ;)

[gimbal]

I'm not saying yes, I'm not saying no ;) But Chuck Rock wouldn't really fit in the "pickups/secrets/upgrades/events/etc." deal, would it? ;)

Next hint: the game is certainly not an Amiga original, and the Amiga port is not well liked at all. One thing that I aim to do is to bring the playability up to speed with its original.

[Sensi]

A Beam'em up? Something like Target Renegade or Final Fight? :)

There is a gun in Target Renegade :)

Myth? No.

[TheCyberDruid]

Bad conversion... Strider?

[Sensi]

Prince of Persia + level editor :spin
No :(

[Coagulus]

Wonderboy?

[gimbal]

Crud! Coagulus is the winner. I am indeed brooding on a fun version of Wonderboy in Monsterland, this time in a gigantic all direction scrolling world with RPG quest elements and of course the ability to save your progress. Towns, hidden upgraded equipment that you have to quest for, secret caves, perhaps even a leveling system. Wonderboy lends itself wonderfully for such a setup, with some gameplay improvements like smoother jumping and collision detection and such. Personally I can imagine many a fun hour building additions to the game world. The game itself is quite easy to build as a tile based platformer, the only thing that will be a challenge is to make the quest system flexible enough.

Well now that the secret is already out, what do you guys think?

[Shoonay]

gimme gimme!

[TheCyberDruid]

Well now that the secret is already out, what do you guys think?

:bowdown :bowdown :bowdown
It sounds awesome (always loved WiM even with its flaws) and look forward to see what you come up with :great Be prepared that I'll kick your ass if it becomes too quiet :D

[gimbal]

my idea is to release constant progress updates that are actually "playable" ;) Even if it only shows the main menu and then quits. Makes testing a lot easier also.

While we discuss ideas to put in the game, I finish the LevelBuilder app.

[Retro-Nerd]

Crud! Coagulus is the winner. I am indeed brooding on a fun version of Wonderboy in Monsterland, this time in a gigantic all direction scrolling world with RPG quest elements and of course the ability to save your progress. Towns, hidden upgraded equipment that you have to quest for, secret caves, perhaps even a leveling system. Wonderboy lends itself wonderfully for such a setup, with some gameplay improvements like smoother jumping and collision detection and such. Personally I can imagine many a fun hour building additions to the game world. The game itself is quite easy to build as a tile based platformer, the only thing that will be a challenge is to make the quest system flexible enough.

Well now that the secret is already out, what do you guys think?

Great idea. It's probably easy to beat the lously Amiga/C64 versions. RPG quest elements sounds nice. Good luck with it. :)

[Cammy]

I am indeed brooding on a fun version of Wonderboy in Monsterland, this time in a gigantic all direction scrolling world with RPG quest elements and of course the ability to save your progress. Towns, hidden upgraded equipment that you have to quest for, secret caves, perhaps even a leveling system. Wonderboy lends itself wonderfully for such a setup, with some gameplay improvements like smoother jumping and collision detection and such.

Hey, that sounds just like three of the official sequels that came out of Wonderboy in Monsterland; Wonderboy and the Dragon's Trap, Wonderboy in Monsterworld, and Monsterworld IV. They all play similarly to Wonderboy in Monsterland, except they have more RPG-style quests, save states, towns, upgrades, caves and a levelling system, as well as improved collision detection and smoother jumping! They also have nicer looking graphics than Wonderboy in Monsterland, so might provide some better blocks and sprites to rip than the old Amiga port of Wonderboy in Monsterland. If you haven't already played them, I'd highly recommend it. These games have been the main inspiration behind two of the current game projects we're working on at Underground Arcade, and I believe the RPG/Adventure elements of the Wonderboy games are what sets them well above most other platform games.

[gimbal]

Hey, that sounds just like three of the official sequels that came out of Wonderboy in Monsterland; Wonderboy and the Dragon's Trap, Wonderboy in Monsterworld, and Monsterworld IV. They all play similarly to Wonderboy in Monsterland, except they have more RPG-style quests, save states, towns, upgrades, caves and a levelling system, as well as improved collision detection and smoother jumping! They also have nicer looking graphics than Wonderboy in Monsterland, so might provide some better blocks and sprites to rip than the old Amiga port of Wonderboy in Monsterland. If you haven't already played them, I'd highly recommend it. These games have been the main inspiration behind two of the current game projects we're working on at Underground Arcade, and I believe the RPG/Adventure elements of the Wonderboy games are what sets them well above most other platform games.

Yes I'll certainly look into replacing some graphics with that of the sega versions. But I like to stick to the Amiga graphics more because that is what we are all freaky about here ;) But I'll certainly give those games a play again to get some more ideas.

Anybody else have some burning desires that they just want to see in a game like this? Feel free to share! Tell your friends! (IE. the dudes that don't seem to even give the amiga game factory forum a look for some reason or another).

[Egg Shen]

A Wonder Boy in Monsterland port for the Amiga ?
Wow !
WBML is actually one of my 5 all times favourite arcade games !!

I remember, back in 92, just after finishing my last high school year, I spent my summer working and finally bought an arcade cabinet, a dream becoming true, since my first arcade experience when I was 12 or so. The cabinet was second hand and sold with Black Dragon (jp version of Black Tiger). And soon after I bought the WBML jamma card. I played it countless time !
I got my first Amiga (a A1200) some months after and I was very disappointed when I saw most of arcade port (Black Tiger, Double Dragon, Vigilante, Altered Beast, Shinobi... and WBML !! Aaarg ! It was terrible !!).

Although you want to make a modified conversion (more on the RPG side), I have a question : would you be willing to port the game faithful to the original ? At least, a version for the original WBML fans out there, that plays the same than the jamma one, so that fans could enjoy the arcade experience again, but on their Amiga.
And using this engine you could enhance it to make your RPG version.
Would it be possible ? :bowdown :bowdown :bowdown

[Shoonay]

Sorry to burst you Bobble Bubble there matey, but see post #6 ;)

[Egg Shen]

Damn ! :crying

[gimbal]

besides, there already is a port for the Amiga ;) Not too good, but it works and is somehow still a lot of fun. I just abuse the Amiga version's assets for my own project.

[Retro-Nerd]

besides, there already is a port for the Amiga ;) Not too good, but it works and is somehow still a lot of fun. I just abuse the Amiga version's assets for my own project.

I hope you don't use the ugly Amiga graphics for this project? Ripping some arcade/console graphics from the Wonder Boy series would be better. :shocked

[Coagulus]

:D cool! I nearly got round to coding a Wonderboy III type game but after doing graphics and music never got to the coding stage due to "procrastination issues"! Hope you get it done!

[gimbal]

I hope you don't use the ugly Amiga graphics for this project? Ripping some arcade/console graphics from the Wonder Boy series would be better. :shocked

Yes I will ;) But I will use some graphics from console/arcade versions where it works better. The Amiga graphics are not that bad.

[TheCyberDruid]

The Amiga graphics are not that bad.

But the PC Engine ones are a lot better : http://www.mobygames.com/game/turbo-grafx/wonder-boy-in-monster-land/screenshots ;)

[Leffmann]

Would love to see a game similar to Wonderboy and the Dragon's Trap on the Amiga. It's interesting how console games often had more depth and feeling than Amiga games, and computer games in general. I think the console developers had bigger visions and focused on the experience whereas computer developers seemingly focused more on technical details.

[gimbal]

But the PC Engine ones are a lot better : http://www.mobygames.com/game/turbo-grafx/wonder-boy-in-monster-land/screenshots ;)

In some ways yes, in others no. To me this is a clear case of overusing the extra colors, in some bobs/sprites they are really screaming at you. But for example the simple background graphics, like trees or clouds, I find very usable. So thank you for informing me of the existence of this version :)

[TheCyberDruid]

You right about the colour abuse in some sprites, but overall the design looks more sophisticated. I'm sure you'll find the right balance :)

[Retro-Nerd]

In some ways yes, in others no. To me this is a clear case of overusing the extra colors, in some bobs/sprites they are really screaming at you. But for example the simple background graphics, like trees or clouds, I find very usable. So thank you for informing me of the existence of this version :)

It's nearly an 1:1 port of the arcade version, minus some shopkeeper and boss sprites. The Amiga look is complety different. Anyway, i'm in the hope for a good platformer with fantasy RPG elements. :)

[gimbal]

in any case, here are some gameplay/overall improvements I aim to make. Feel free to add a few ideas of your own you know!

- remove any "technology" stuff (no conveyor belts, the dragon will not be robotic)
- improve jumping to be more "mario" like, giving you more control
- improve collision detection so the game's attack system is less frustrating
- bounce back when an arrow/bubble hits your shield will be far less severe
- ability to switch between secondary weapons (bombs, fireballs, etc.)
- colored equipment like in the arcade version - the color determines the strength
- no time depletion
- save "houses" (no saving just anywhere, that is too easy)
- you keep all the swords you find and you can switch between them at save "houses". Maybe the same for armor. Could give the possibility of having fire resistant armor and such to help you get through a specific lava section.
- to aid in the quest system that will be added, you will have a "quest inventory" that will show you all active quests, and a short, probably cryptic, description of the next step to be taken.

More improvements will follow.

[gimbal]

even though I want one huge expandable game, I decided that it is still best to subdivide into smaller sections (or "levels"). The main outside world will be split into multiple large worlds to at least give you a sense of progress. Perhaps it will be possible to travel back to previous worlds to finish quests there, that will become clear once the development of the game starts.

Each world then has smaller sublevels, like caves, castles, etc. that you reach through the doorways you already know from the original game.

One idea that I was playing with is to include the concept of the "nemesis"; a large boss-like enemy that will hunt you and fight you throughout the game at random intervals. There will be a trick to killing him/it, which will of course be a secret of the game that you have to hunt for through clues you can get from NPCs. Could be fun :)

[TheCyberDruid]

/Voice of reason mode on
Might be a good idea not to aim too high in the first place. I know that you want to consider every expandability before starting the actual game design, but so far it sounds complex enough already. You know that most ideas will come *after* people played it anyway ;)
/Voice of reason mode off

MAKE IT FRIGGIN' HUGE! AND LOTSA STUFF! AND I WANT SHARKS WITH LASERS ON THEIR HEADS!!! :D
I like the quest idea, yet I think an experience system isn't really suited for the game. The 'Zelda' way should be enough :) Same goes for the 'annoying areas at the start which you need to come back later in the game with the right equipment' :D I love those :spin

[gimbal]

'annoying areas at the start which you need to come back later in the game with the right equipment' I love those


Yes those will definitely be in there, including areas that you need special gear for that are already part of a secret you have to hunt down ;)

Yeah I know, should keep it simple to keep the "failure rate" low. I can always make a sequel if the first one turns out good :)

[gimbal]

Okay, I think I've got the quest system nailed. It is not going to be very complex of course, but the way I'm going to do it is going to allow a lot of freedom. Basically it is like:

1. you have a quest, which has a "trigger" (for example, onenter a door, or onkill an enemy). A quest also has an ending goal (onkill enemy, onpickup item, onenter door, etc.). To illustrate: onenter door could easily also be the talking to an NPC or the finding of a boss, as they are only found behind doors.

2. quest are devided into sections, each section starting on a trigger like the quest (except the first one, which starts as soon as the quest starts)

3. a section can have text, which is displayed, optionally in subsequent blocks, when the section is triggered. You can imagine that onenter door, an NPC will talk to you.

4. the start / ending of a section can trigger any number of events. Event types are "kill enemy", "give item", "open door", "make visible/invisible object", "start quest", "progress quest", "end quest" and I'm sure I'll think of more when I start to actually build the game.

Because of the section and event system, you can string quests together. You could advance to the next section because you enter a door (optionally after finding the right key for it first!), or when you kill an enemy/boss, or when you pickup a specific item, etc.

From within the LevelBuilder editor you will be able to name items / doors / enemies / etc. so from within the quest scripts (which are going to be simple text files in a specific format) you can refer to them. Also from within the editor you can create a reference between two objects, for example a key and a door. The game can then use this to know when you have the proper key for a door.

Working hard! Currently polishing off the last bits I need to make the editor work for the game.

[gimbal]

One thing that I do need some assistance with is the sounds; I have tried to turn the music off in the game but I found no way, so my question is threefold:

1) is there some other way to turn off the music tracks, using WinUAE for example?
2) if not, is there perhaps another wonderboy game with more suitable sounds that I could rip?
3) Or perhaps you know of sounds in a completely different game / set of games that you would find more suitable?

Please let me know!

[TheCyberDruid]

1) is there some other way to turn off the music tracks, using WinUAE for example?

If you enable the 'Sample ripper' on the output panel, each sound played will be saved to a wav file. They are saved to the WinUAE exe folder by default. That should do the trick :)

[gimbal]

... winuae is more awesome than I thought :s

But if you know about replacement sounds (or music!) that fit better, the request is still open :)

[gimbal]

for the people that care: I've been working hard on the game, but currently I'm in the boring code part that doesn't display anything. Data loading, setup, tools, etc. For proof that I'm actually doing something with the game, check out the latest tutorial of my LevelBuilder editor (which will get a new alpha pretty soon, the well of bugs and mistakes is running dry).

http://www.xs4all.nl/~gimbal/projects/levelbuilder/tutorials/tutorial3.html

Grrr, I want to get to the fun part :)

[gimbal]

making good progress on the first iteration, which will include title screen, menu and will allow you to run around in a test level. The trouble with this first iteration is that I really need to get all the boiler plate stuff done before it can do anything. Currently I'm working on being able to handle moving and animating entities in the game world.

I'm having major trouble getting the sound assets though; the Winuae sample ripper does not love me, producing wonky wav files that do not play properly, and when they do play there is a very audible crackling noise.

Next to that my favorite stream source recorder (Smart Recorder in the creative Audigy suite) now just crashes upon starting, even after reinstalling everything... I'll probably have to reinstall Windoze again to get that working, so I'll try my luck with the Winuae sound output recorder.

In any case I put the basic project page up, which is frightfully bare at the moment for reasons I already mentioned. Expect screenshots ASAP.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~gimbal/projects/wonderboy.htm

[gimbal]

Alright, some late night tinkering and I'm showing the first work in progress screenshots. The fact that you see these means that I am already far into development and I'm now ready to start implementing actual game features. Be warned though, I am posting full size screenshots here ;)

http://www.xs4all.nl/~gimbal/projects/wb/screens/screen01.png

Here you see the main menu, which is new but should look slightly familiar. I butchered the credits screen :) There actually already is a working and animating title screen before this, but it is not interesting enough to make a screenshot of.

Check out the interface also; it is the same as the original game, but this one stretches! All elements will stick to their respective corner. Right now I'm limiting to a 1024*768 window, but I want fullscreen support that will stretch to your entire screen, enlarging the viewport area of the game. Although there are now only 6 pickup item slots, there is now plenty of space for a lot more...

Even though the game is not going to have a clock, the area for the sand clock is still there as some events will be timed...

http://www.xs4all.nl/~gimbal/projects/wb/screens/screen02.png

Here we see a test level in LevelBuilder...

http://www.xs4all.nl/~gimbal/projects/wb/screens/screen03.png

And here you see that same level loaded in the game. Not much going on yet, but I'm working on it. The black border around the level is only there because the level is actually smaller than the viewport, the real levels will always be bigger. This was one of the development tests to make the game space everything properly, the next test will be movement and scrolling!


Keep y'all posted, now it starts to get interesting :)

[gimbal]

just in case somebody is interested, I'm still working on this (with some guidance from mister JOTD himself, it is amazing how many mistakes I was making!). I finally seem to have nailed the collision detection, what a chore it was! I never had to deal with a bob (animating object) that has animations with vastly different widths before, it gives some specific hurdles to overcome.

The fact that I was having end-of-year-exhaustion (the kind where you don't want to work anymore) didn't help ;) Good thing I had some vacation time, now I'm all rested up.

As said, with the help of JOTD to kick me in the right direction, the "game" is now moving as smoothly as his (into the) wonderful Gods remake does. Now let me work on the level scrolling and I'll almost have a first demo ready...

[TheCyberDruid]

Good to hear that :) Looking forward to play the first demo gimby :spin Keep it up :great (oh and thanks to JOTD too of course :bowdown :D)

[gimbal]

http://www.xs4all.nl/~gimbal/projects/wb/screens/screen04.png

The game already supports information and shop screens. This is the screen I use to transform the player into the armored wonderboy. The game knows a simple scripting system which also controls the screens; here is the script as it controls the info screen:

type: info
name: info1
shopkeeper: shopkeeper5
infotext: Hello brave hero!^
This is just an example text, I'm sure the final game will have something very interesting to tell.^
In the mean time, take this sword and armor and begone.
giveitem: swordpickup[gradius]
giveitem: armorpickup[light]

I am lazy so this is as simple as possible, in plain text. So if you want to give yourself the highest available items right from the start, you can easily hack this file ;)

Similarly, this would be a shop:

type: shop
name: shop1
shopkeeper: shopkeeper2
shopitem1: bombpickup
shopitem2: fireballpickup
shopitem1text1: Purchased bombs!
shopitem1text2: Purchased fireballs!
shopitem2text1: Purchased bombs again!
shopitem2text2: Purchased fireballs again!

Just for reference: in the level editor I would assign the name "shop1" to the matching property of the door, and then the game puts it all together. Lazy = good.

[gimbal]

Working towards the first demo now, so I'm implementing some eye candy features way too soon. Its quite cool really;

- implemented scrolling (but still need to track down a very rare hiccup glitch. Nothing serious)

- implemented going from one "level" (world section) to another. If the levels are wired properly, you can revisit any section you want. It is not going to be the "left to right" deal that the original game was.

- the first enemies have entered into the game, although they don't do much yet. Need some fodder to test out attacking and getting hurt, so the stationary red snake is my bitch right now...

- implemented the first parts of the more capable (yet still simple) scripting system, and hooking parts of the game into it. For example a script can now spawn/remove enemies, delay for a specific amount of milliseconds, display text and change the...

- weather system! That's right, the game supports different weather circumstances. I already got one working and it looks pretty cool, if I say so myself. Expect rain and thunder in future versions, perhaps even mist... I get ahead of myself.

The deal is that the demo is going to be the first part of the real game, which is an interactive introduction sequence (did I mention that I want the game to have an actual story?). I want to get it far enough to have something that actually works and looks like a game, to get the rusty playtesting urges flowing in some of you deadbeats...

Wait, did I say that out loud? I meant to say fine gentlemen!