Project: Blizzard 1230 IV - Heat Pipe Cooling System

[Yoto]

Just had an idea based on Heat Pipe "tecnology", used mostly on portable pc´s.
Im thinking about building some kind of trapdoor for the A1200 that will use a "chunk" of cooper or aluminum with 5 to 6 mm, and some small pipes like the ones used in the back of refrigerators with 3 mm.
The goal is to make some holes in the "chunk" with the same size of the heat pipes and then fit them inside, for this purpose the trapdoor will have to be lowered in the inside by 3 to 4 mm.
The cooper holding the pipes will be in contact with the CPU and dissipates the heat along them as well as to the aluminum plate forming the trapdoor bottom.
I made a 3D draw with the concept, to give a better idea.
Fell free to share some of your thoughts to help improve this project.
http://img56.imageshack.us/img56/9141/a1200tdczj3.th.jpg (http://img56.imageshack.us/my.php?image=a1200tdczj3.jpg)

[meega]

It doesn't need it.

[Zetr0]

Hiyas Yoto

(sounds like Yo, Toe! *heheh*)

I like the idea and concept, I would add a couple of ideas if I may...

Small set of feet to raise the computer by 10mm / 1 centimeter
a Latch to LOCK and UNLOCK the trap-door heat sink in place.
the Primary heat sink / heat exchanger on a subtle spring so it firmly presses against the CPU
alterable cooling block position for 030's and 060's


ohhh perhaps a range of fruity colours and flavours :)

[Yoto]

@ meega

Well it dosen´t if you live in a country with a mild summer. Our summers easily reach to 40 º C.

[DoogUK]

Brilliant idea for an 040!

[Zetr0]

@yoto / doogie

this method will only work for Blizzard-esq type cards that have thier CPU upside down, Apollo's on the other hand have thier CPU up the rightway. however nothing stops a small adaption of this unit to have the heat pipes come out and into the h/sink...

[thgill]

I am not sure about the Blizzard 030 cards (been a couple years since I had one), but I know my Paravision 030/50 card doesn't anywhere near hot enough to be of concern.

Sometimes I leave my 1200 on over night for a couple days in a row...or spend hour upon hours unzipping WHDLoad packages and the bottom of the trap door barely gets warm. No hotter than you would experience from a modern laptop. Actually probably cooler than many of them.


But I agree with Zetr0, perhaps a universal one that could be adapted to fit 030/040 and 060 cards would be useful. Well, ones that have the cpu mounted on the bottom anyways.

[Yoto]

Thanks Zetr0 for the ideas, i will add them to the project...not too sure about the colors and flavours though. ;)

I was trying to solve this problem for my B1230, since i cant use my amiga during the day in the Summer, i believe some guys living in Australia also have the same problem.

[Fingerlickin_B]

Thanks Zetr0 for the ideas, i will add them to the project...not too sure about the colors and flavours though. ;)

I was trying to solve this problem for my B1230, since i cant use my amiga during the day in the Summer, i believe some guys living in Australia also have the same problem.

Yeah, I'm worried about mine as it is in a tower & the motherboard/Blizzard is too close to the case side for me to even install a small heatsink :(

Hit 42C here with ceiling fan the other day...if I was near my machine I wouldn't have considered even turning it on!

Thinking of plumbing a fan through the small gaps towards it.

PZ.

[Yoto]

@ Fingerlickin B

Hit 42C here with ceiling fan the other day...if I was near my machine I wouldn't have considered even turning it on!


Yeah! i know...during summer i can only turn my 1200 at night...:(

But since you have a metal case, maybe you could use a "chunk" of metal firmly attached to the CPU to transfer the heat to the case, or you could drill a few breathing holes in the case and install the fan from the outside?

[Fingerlickin_B]

I thought about that, but fan on the outside wouldn't be as neat as I'd like :(

PZ.

[AmigaFan]

I know I may be stating the obvious here, but you should take into consideration that a fan (or heat pipe) can only cool an object down to the same temperature as the surrounding air (at best).

[rkauer]

Just to remember Yotoxi: don't mix copper and aluminium! They react very badly with each other, creating a oxidation who will act as an electrical and thermal insulator.

Be warned.

[Yoto]

Thanks rkauer, i´ve changed the original design already, copper chunk will not be used at all, instead i will use an aluminum one. Single hollow tubes will also be replaced with several aluminum folds instead.

[Yoto]

I know I may be stating the obvious here, but you should take into consideration that a fan (or heat pipe) can only cool an object down to the same temperature as the surrounding air (at best).


Then we have to hope the air around the "fan" or "heatpipe" is below ,(my 030 summer normal temp), 60ºC´s ...Damn!... I guess i can no longer use my miggy on Mars in a near future...:laughing

[cosmicfrog]

er correct me if i`m wrong but don`t heat pipes have something in them that evaperates thus takeing the heat away as in your frige

[Fingerlickin_B]

er correct me if i`m wrong but don`t heat pipes have something in them that evaperates thus takeing the heat away as in your frige

Huh, I downt now wat yew ah saiing?

All pedant-powered antics aside, are you suggesting some sort of refrigerant? An "actively" cooled system would be the "coolest" ever...good idea! :great

PZ.

[VincentGR]

Sorry for posting a tube link here but this is what I did to cool my 030. It works fine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YueIY29m1Kk

[Hewitson]

Looks like a very shoddy mod to be honest.

The refrigerant idea is amusing, maybe we should all strip old fridges from the tip and use the refrigeration equipment on our Amigas. :laughing

[VincentGR]

Looks like a very shoddy mod to be honest.

The refrigerant idea is amusing, maybe we should all strip old fridges from the tip and use the refrigeration equipment on our Amigas. :laughing

I put this on a hurry cause I wanted to upload this for a friend.
It was painted. Now Dremel made its miracle :guru

[Akira]

@ meega

Well it dosen´t if you live in a country with a mild summer. Our summers easily reach to 40 º C.
I had an 030 in a country where humidity was high and temperatures in summer were always between 30 and 40. An 030 does not need such cooling.

A simple fan and putting your Amiga elevated from the desk it stays on is all you need to keep it happy. 60 degrees sounds like a normal operating speed for a processor.

[VincentGR]

putting your Amiga elevated from the desk

I did this in the past but I couldn't type well. Also 030 many times crashed my Amiga cause he was shaking while pressing Alt to summon the dragon in golden axe :D

[roy bates]

to be honest,the whole idea of cooling down the cpu isent a bad one.

but,putting a heatpipe or piece of aluminium on one to then realise that heat rises back into the system with no fan to disperse the heat is just a waist of time.isent the idea supposed to be that the heat is dispersed.

as can clearly be seen by the mods in this thread,when the machine is back in its upright position.



and peaple probably think its working because the trapdoor isent on, or theres holes in the trapdoor for ventilation witch causes updraft..


also putting a fan on something wont make it cooler than the room its in.it will only be as cool as the room.

[duga]

I had an 030 in a country where humidity was high and temperatures in summer were always between 30 and 40. An 030 does not need such cooling.

A simple fan and putting your Amiga elevated from the desk it stays on is all you need to keep it happy. 60 degrees sounds like a normal operating speed for a processor.

60 degrees? Speed?

[Akira]

also putting a fan on something wont make it cooler than the room its in.it will only be as cool as the room.

No, but the important thing is that air flows around it. This is why I had the fan AND lifted the Amiga. Only a few centimeters helps. When it was really hot, I put a fan behind it to help the air circulate.

And yeah, how hot do you think your modern CPU gets? If the processor doesn't crash, it's operating in its known temperature. How were those "60 degrees" measured anyway?

[roy bates]

No, but the important thing is that air flows around it. This is why I had the fan AND lifted the Amiga. Only a few centimeters helps. When it was really hot, I put a fan behind it to help the air circulate.

And yeah, how hot do you think your modern CPU gets? If the processor doesn't crash, it's operating in its known temperature. How were those "60 degrees" measured anyway?



yep exactly,but still doesent mean anything alse on the card wont fail.



yes we know modern pcs temps,but with all respect this isent a modern pc:)

[Akira]

yep exactly,but still doesent mean anything alse on the card wont fail.



yes we know modern pcs temps,but with all respect this isent a modern pc:)

What is the logical temperature of an 030 at max speeds, then? And under which temperature conditions?

If the AMBIENT temperature is 40 degrees, 60 degrees on the chip surface sounds TOTTALLY possible, and it doesn't mean it's overheating.

[roy bates]

What is the logical temperature of an 030 at max speeds, then? And under which temperature conditions?

If the AMBIENT temperature is 40 degrees, 60 degrees on the chip surface sounds TOTTALLY possible, and it doesn't mean it's overheating.



you want to know?


http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&ved=0CEsQFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fcache.freescale.com%2Ffiles%2F32bit%2Fdoc%2Fref_manual%2FMC68030EC.pdf&ei=hY7LUPatK5SZ0QWJxYGACg&usg=AFQjCNFLyzpUASPGN0ZaiX5KY3eLLOjooQ&sig2=PFKXeCnSqB4kIBDTtiG1ww&bvm=bv.1355325884,d.d2k&cad=rja


what im trying to say is all the other parts involved on the card and in the amiga,while all the heat from the cpu and all other parts including fpu are added into the equation including the temp of the room its in.

what is the operating temp of all the other parts?



an analogy i used to compare to was how does an oven work?
do you see?

[Johan1973]

Heatpipes are fine, but would it not be better to make a small water block and place a small radiator somewhere around the venting holes in the chassis of the A1200, in the back, where you can use a small fan to blow the hot air out. The whole thing will have to be pretty small, but the improved cooling will be well worth it. In addition you are able to place the cooling block anywhere the processor is, and does not have to adjust the design of heatpipes depending on what accelerator you have.
You dont need much flow of liquid, so even the weakest pump would do.
Should cool anything from overclocked 030s to 060s and perhaps even PPCs.

[Akira]

It says "50Mhz Maximum Case temperature 80".
So 60 sounds fine. I don't get your point or why you are expressing things in a mean way.

[roy bates]

It says "50Mhz Maximum Case temperature 80".
So 60 sounds fine. I don't get your point or why you are expressing things in a mean way.



im not expressing this in a mean way,an analogy is something to relate to or compare to.

[Akira]

im not expressing this in a mean way,an analogy is something to relate to or compare to.
I didn't mean this, rather your snarky remarks from before and also on the 020 replacement thread Mrs. Beanbag created. Seriously, not everyone knows everything. The questions you ask, I don't have the answers for, but you do, so why ask them to me?

My position still stands. According to the documents you gave, 60 degrees is well into the normal operating temperature of an 030 @ 50Mhz, unless you wanna explain why I am wrong or how I read wrong what you posted.

[TheCyberDruid]

Sorry, but posting in a project thread 'it's not needed' might be considered slightly off the mark. Maybe let the whole 'discussion' end here and get back on topic?

[Mrs Beanbag]

Only active cooling can lower your CPU below room temperature, not fans or heat pipes or any amount of heat sinks. Personally I don't think an 030 should need very much cooling. A simple piece of aluminium will increase the surface area and allow the heat to radiate away quicker. I agree having the CPU on the bottom of the machine is not great from a thermodynamic point of view because where is the heat going to go.

If there is a fan it might be best to place it at the back of the case to pull air in through the front, maybe craft some sort of duct. Alternatively, cut a hole in the desk!

One time I got a Peltier element from Ebay to play with, it was quite fun making ice with it.

p.s. heat pipes are not just copper pipes, they are sealed and evacuated with a little bit of water vapour in them. Heat transfer is by phase change of the water vapour.

[prowler]

According to the documents you gave, 60 degrees is well into the normal operating temperature of an 030 @ 50Mhz, unless you wanna explain why I am wrong or how I read wrong what you posted.

Akira is quite correct in this assertion. However, the provision of cooling to lower the CPU temperature still further, though not strictly necessary and certainly not to below room temperature, may prolong its life.

It is only this which is being suggested by other users, and it's not worth arguing about, surely !?! :shocked

[Mrs Beanbag]

yeah, besides, it doesn't need to be a real problem for us to have fun solving it.

[Johan1973]

I have always cooled cpus a little more than necessary, and well, that might be why I have never had any cpu die on me.

Using heatpipes or water cooling in an amiga is also very cool project :D
Would be fun to make a product that is usable for every cpu. No matter where it is placed beneath the trapdoor.

[Mrs Beanbag]

my own 68060 is actually on the top of the card, so I have various options.

For CPUs under the card, maybe a U-shaped peice of copper or aluminium that transfers the heat from the underside of the card to the top side might give better results. Although there is not a lot of room there because of the keyboard.

[ElectroBlaster]

Bakc when I still had my Blizzard 1230 IV, I stuck an old southbridge heatsink from a crap pc chips board onto it then raised the amiga with rubber feet!

That old blizzard did a bit toasty. enougth for me to bother doing the mods.

[Mr B]

Heatpipes are fine, but would it not be better to make a small water block and place a small radiator somewhere around the venting holes in the chassis of the A1200, in the back, where you can use a small fan to blow the hot air out.No. Just... No. For the watt we are talking about, water just isn't productive. If it's seen as a entertaining project, so be it, but your better of using a low profile copper heatsink, a copper heatspread, and sandwitch a TEC in the middle. However, i'm not sure the 680X0 CPU's like sub-zero temps in the long run, does anyone else know?

One time I got a Peltier element from Ebay to play with, it was quite fun making ice with it.TEC's are nifty, any amount of fun can be had with them. I honestly think TEC's are a bit over the top as well, but at least you got everything needed to power em in the Amiga already.

p.s. heat pipes are not just copper pipes, they are sealed and evacuated with a little bit of water vapour in them.Depending on the temperature range they are supposed to work at they have different fluids, and pressures. but basically it's just a closed tube with something that can change phase in it.

I have always cooled cpus a little more than necessary, and well, that might be why I have never had any cpu die on me.Extreme cold isn't likely to "kill" the CPU. Uneven cooling might crack it, as can uneven heating. However, to cold CPU's may not function properly, or at all. Compressor, or even cascade compressor cooling is fairly known for deep-freezing stuff to the point where they wont fire up until thawed.TEC's might to, if the temp needed isn't crazy low.

For CPUs under the card, maybe a U-shaped peice of copper or aluminium that transfers the heat from the underside of the card to the top side might give better results. Although there is not a lot of room there because of the keyboard.Space is certainly the main issue, but the idea isn't new. I got one of these:
http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Zalman/ZM-80D/images/package2.jpg

(Image stolen from here (http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Zalman/ZM-80D/))
I used mine for a AGP Radeon 9500Pro, and clocked the .... out of it. and then went on using it for years, until i pulled it for a newer GFX. As far as i know, it's still working, but it haven't exactly been in use for a few years.

[Johan1973]

You misunderstood me, I did not mean cold would kill the cpu, quite the opposite. Keeping them cooler than necessary might prolong life.

And that good old Zalman heatpipe I used on my Radeon 9800 as well and clocked the crap out of it. Still have it as well. It is almost an ideal product to use in an A1200. If you can attach the block on the CPU, if there is enough space there between keyboard and cpu, you can put the heatsink on the other end of the heatpipe at any angle to make it fit.

[Mr B]

I would say there is no way the GPU cooler would fit, i just included it as a example, it was the first to come to my mind, seeing as i've had hands on experience with it.

[Johan1973]

Well, you could make a new block easily enough for mounting it on the cpu. Then use the heatpipe and larger heatsink for cooling. You probably can cut it down in size as well.

OR as you suggested, just use it as inspiration. Because it is a good basic design.

Passive cooling is the best way to go for A1200, since you want the machine to be really silent. And though peltier elements are silent, they unfortunately add the problem of condensation. As such, a custom made heatpipe would be best. I am considering if you could actually use the heatpipe to bring the heat out of the case, and there under the A1200 place a very thin, but larger heatsink. Spreading it over a larger area. Quite possibly you could just use a single sheet metal of copper that is about the size of the underside of the A1200. Cut it to fit snuggly against the bottom.
Though, then we have the heat rising up from below as a potential problem. And I think it would be best if the heat could me moved into the area where you have the ventilation slits of the A1200. Allowing it to rise up from there. Exactly where you can fit a heatsink there, depends on your modifications inside the machine.

[Mrs Beanbag]

You risk condensation whenever you lower temperatures below ambient, with a TEC or otherwise. A TEC doesn't necessarily do this, however, you could calibrate it to achieve exactly room temperature if you wanted. The real disadvantage of TEC though is that it requires more power than the amount of heat it displaces, thereby adding even more to the heat you want to get rid of. It keeps the CPU cool but the heat sink attached to it will get even hotter, which brings its own problems; and the hotter the heat sink gets, the less efficient the TEC gets. Not to mention how to power it. To cool a 20W CPU you'd need at least a 30W TEC. A standard Amiga power brick isn't going to cut it. But they are fun to play with.

[Mr B]

You probably can cut it down in size as well.A lot. For the 680X0 lineup, what are we talking about, 5w, tops? The GPU for which the cooler was made, quite a bit more.

As such, a custom made heatpipe would be best. I am considering if you could actually use the heatpipe to bring the heat out of the case, and there under the A1200 place a very thin, but larger heatsink. Spreading it over a larger area. Quite possibly you could just use a single sheet metal of copper that is about the size of the underside of the A1200. Cut it to fit snuggly against the bottom.
Though, then we have the heat rising up from below as a potential problem. And I think it would be best if the heat could me moved into the area where you have the ventilation slits of the A1200. Allowing it to rise up from there. Exactly where you can fit a heatsink there, depends on your modifications inside the machine.If you manage to spread the energy from the CPU over a area as large as the entire bottom of the A1200, then you'd need very little to manage to get rid of it as well. The problem i see is that heatpies don't really perform that well when the cooler area is below the heatingpoint. There are a few means of using "wicks" to transfer the condensed coolant back to the hot spot, but they aren't as effective as gravity, and it's a bit more complex then just using a bit of tubing. If someone were to actually make one, i bet a heatpipe with fins on it, going from the CPU and up to the vents on the A1200 case would be more then enough to keep things cool, just running on the hot air convection.
But actually making one that fits... Bah, count me out.
Honestly, the only reason i see for "elaborate" cooling is a 68040, or a PPC, and at that point, it doesn't really take more then a low profile equivalent of a 486/pentium cooler...

[Johan1973]

Most modern heat pipes have a wick just as you talk about, it is pretty much necessary in computers in order to have them perform efficiently, and I have used them in many configurations, cooling point beneath hot point, or above, it does not really matter when you have a wick. It is not gravity that provide the flow, it is the expansion and shrinking of the medium that provide the flow along the heatpipe. This is further helped by the wicker effect.

You are right about the wattage though. Not 5W due to it being 5V logic, but it is no more than 20W or so. Which is completely possible to cool with a low profile chipset heatsink from an old pc motherboard.

Add to that a slow revolving fan, and you have all the cooling you need for 68030 and below.

But I think the point of this project was to make it run as cool as possible. And then there are some options available to do. You could for example just put a block on the cpu that connects to a heatpipe, that you then fix to make proper thermal contact with the A1200 motherboard shield (if you still have that in your machine), and that would be sufficient to dissipate any heat.