A new, low-cost CD32 Expansion?

[Rebel-CD32]

I've had this idea for ages, and I thought I might put it out there and see what other people think. I'm no hardware developer, so it would be great to find out from the tech guys what's actually possible and what's not. The idea is a minimum-cost CD32 expansion. If it's possible for someone to design this and release it, it would be good to know how many people would buy one. So any ideas and suggestions towards a possible real life design for this would be really appreciated. My girlfriend and I have bounced ideas off a few people bout it over the last couple of years/months, so I've tried to deal with a few frequently asked questions or topics people bring up when discussing the idea.

CD32 Expansion
---- ---------

A low-cost, internal expansion for the CD32 that adds 8MB Fast RAM, IDE
(with Compact Flash adapter connected by default) and a battery backed
clock. To ensure the unit will fit inside the CD32, it should be designed
with the edge connector on the end of a ribbon cable. The unit slides
inside the CD32 and the ribbon curves down and joins onto the edge
connector. Hopefully this design will allow the plastic backing plate to
be replaced over the CD32's expansion port once the unit is installed.

FAQ

Q. Why would anyone want to expand their CD32?
A. The CD32 is a fine games machine, but it had quite a limited range of
games available compared to other consoles or Amiga models at the time.
In recent years, with the help of WHDLoad, people have began playing
games on their CD32s that were never officially released. Unfortunately
not all games run with the CD32's 2MB standard RAM. With additional RAM,
hundreds more games will run on the CD32. This includes games that
weren't available before such as Super Street Fighter II, Aladdin, DOOM,
XTreme Racing, Worms: The Director's Cut, and many others. The addition
of a Compact Flash card (sizes from 256MB up to 16GB are available)
allows you to install Workbench and any other programs and games on your
CD32, practically turning it into an expanded A1200 (without the
additional, obsolete ports). This can be filled with games, all
selectable from a menu at boot, or from Workbench. A battery backed
clock will help your Amiga remember the time and date when switched off.

Q. Why not add a SIMM socket to allow additional RAM to be added?
A. The maximum amount of RAM allowed by the CD32's 68EC020 CPU is 8MB.
Additional RAM can't be added, and any less than 8MB is pointless.

Q. Why does it not have extra ports for Serial, Keyboard, Floppy Drive or
Parallel?
A. Adding extra ports pushes up the cost for very little gain. The CD32
already has a combination Serial/Keyboard port, which when combined with
an adapter will allow you to use any serial device as well as an A4000
or A2000 keyboard (or a PC PS/2 keyboard if you use the Lyra adapter).
Use of an external Floppy drive on a CD32 isn't advised without using a
more powerful PSU, and adding the port would add to the cost. Also,
WHDLoad has replaced the need for a Floppy drive for most games now,
and a CF card is easy enough to eject/insert if files need to be
exported (a serial link can be used for file sharing too). A Parallel
port would only be useful for ParNet, or for old printers/accessories.

Q. Why does the expansion come with a Compact Flash card by default instead
of a hard drive (which can be much larger)?
A. The CD32's standard Power Supply Unit is only 25w, and is really only
designed to power the CD32 and the internal CD-ROM drive. Adding
additional mechanical drives, such as Hard Drives and Floppy Drives,
which have their own motors inside, strains the PSU, and at times can
cause system failures. Compact Flash cards are solid-state, and use
barely any power at all, making them ideal for low-power applications.
They also have the advantage of being silent and being faster than a
hard drive to load from. If the user requires a hard drive, it can be
added, but it's recommended they use a replacement PSU.

Q. Is marketing such a product a very practical idea in this day and age?
A. I believe so. The CD32, unlike other Amigas, is still available in mass
quantities brand new in the box from several sellers (mainly in China) at
very reasonable prices. Also, there are many people out there who have
CD32s packed away, or sitting unused, just waiting to be given a new
lease on life. Amiga 1200s are becoming quite rare as people hunt down
machines to fill with their WHDLoad games. An expanded CD32 is going to
be the perfect machine for retro gaming, as well as the platform of
choice for current Amiga games developers (AGA + Extra RAM).

Q. Why not add a more powerful CPU, like a 030 or 060, which would turn the
CD32 into a super-console?
A. This expansion is intended as a low-cost option for people wanting to
expand their CD32s enough to play more games or run Workbench
applications, which the 68EC020 is enough to do. Adding a new CPU would
add to the production time and costs, and compatible CPUs are also hard
to come by in mass quantities brand new these days. That said, a 030 or
060 CD32 would totally kick butt, but may be only a dream for now.

[illy5603]

That would be awesome! Adding a PS/2 compatible keyboard connection would be even awesomer.

[rkauer]

That would be awesome! Adding a PS/2 compatible keyboard connection would be even awesome.

For? The CD32 already have an Amiga keyboard connector. It's a simple matter of:

- Take the pinouts from allpinouts.org ;
- Make the PS/2 keyboard adaptor (1 PIC16F48, 1 4MHz crystal and 3 resistors).

Difficult?:rolleyes

[illy5603]

For? The CD32 already have an Amiga keyboard connector. It's a simple matter of:

- Take the pinouts from allpinouts.org ;
- Make the PS/2 keyboard adaptor (1 PIC16F48, 1 4MHz crystal and 3 resistors).

Difficult?:rolleyes

Certainly more difficult than plugging it into a device that already had a PS/2 Port on it. ;)

Not all of us have soldering irons and stuff. Anyway, I am just piling stuff onto the wish list.

[Paul_s]

I think it's a great idea. The 1200 gets far too many toys! Us CD32'ers need some hardware prawn of our own :D

The SX1 et al are just way too expensive and having some kind of expansion inside of the CD32 instead of sticking outside would be a lot lot better.

As well as more ram/ide capability I think some form of RGB connector on the back with scan doubling/flicker fixer would be nice also!

[alexh]

Like the idea, unfortunately it is not viable due to the cost of the edge connectors :(

They cost $5 each, you need two per console and they have an MOQ of over 1000. That means you need $5000 investment before you even start building the first prototype.

BTW: The only company selling this connector is Adam-Tech (182-pin MCA connector)

I looked into it a few years ago and you could not come in at a retail price below a second hand SX32 or SX1. (£55-85)

What would be easiest would be to communicate with the UK company Analogic. See how many CD32 Floppy disk drive units they have left. Ask how many they sold and maybe create an add in for that unit? That would just be a PCB.

P.S. No-one wants a battery backed clock! Add RGB out instead.

[Heavy Stylus]

I would pay between £50-£100 for this if someone was willing to manufacture them. It sounds like a great idea!

Off topic, but regarding PS2 Keyboard Adapters... I've got a email-buddy who makes PS2 Keyboard adapters, Playstation->CD32 pad adapters and PS2 mouse adapters if people are interested. He sells them for about £20 per unit.

[alexh]

I would pay between £50-£100 for this if someone was willing to manufacture them. It sounds like a great idea!
You can get a second hand SX32 MK1 or SX1/Paravision for less than £100 (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140256473539). Admittedly perhaps not when YOU wanted it.

[Heavy Stylus]

Yeah - but I'd prefer a unit that actually fits inside the console - my desk space is very limited ;)

[Rebel-CD32]

PS/2 - Amiga adapters are available from AmigaKit. They're called Lyra Keyboard Adapters. Here's the link to buy them - http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=49&products_id=228

As for the design, if we used a ribbon cable shouldn't it eliminate the need for two edge connectors, just using one instead? I realise that this was the most expensive/impractical part of the design, but assuming we can get a supply of them or some funding to buy a bulk lot, how viable is the design for the rest of the board? I assume adding extra ports and things would just add too much to the cost, hopefully some day we'll have a CD32 version of the IndivisionAGA Flicker Fixer anyway, so people can just use VGA monitors with their CD32 for Workbench.

[alexh]

As for the design, if we used a ribbon cable shouldn't it eliminate the need for two edge connectors, just using one instead?
Possibly. I question the viability and robustness of such a solution.

I realise that this was the most expensive/impractical part of the design, but assuming we can get a supply of them or some funding to buy a bulk lot, how viable is the design for the rest of the board?
Define viable. Of course it could be created. But within the £55-£85 mark? I do not think you'd make any profit.

Who would create the PCB layout? What tools would you use? What CPLD/FPGA are you going to use? How many layers does it need? What are the voltage requirements of CF? Where are you going to get them manufactured? Assembled? Tested? Do you need a driver (and hence a ROM) or can you emulate a Gayle and use Kickstart? Are there any Gayle drivers in the CD32 kickstart?

I assume adding extra ports and things would just add too much to the cost
It depends. I think RGB is essential. The edge connector board could have six easy solder pads for the seven wires (RGBSLRG) required for a "captured cable". It would be inexpensive. Even better if it had a mini connector.

hopefully some day we'll have a CD32 version of the IndivisionAGA Flicker Fixer anyway, so people can just use VGA monitors with their CD32 for Workbench.
World peace and end to famine are more likely :)

[Rebel-CD32]

Once again, alexh, you have crushed all my hopes and dreams. It's a shame we live in a world where people care about profit first, as I'm sure there's a huge market out there for an expansion like this if someone with the skills and funding were to make a project like this reality.

[chiark]

If you're crushed by alexh's postings then you need a thicker skin: you asked for comments from a hardware developer and got them! Alex is merely giving his opinion which you asked for. If you think he's wrong, push back and show how your ideas could work in the face of the challenges!

as for caring about profit, well... If there's a huge market (for a given definition of huge) and you're making a loss on each one then, erm, you're not going to attract people with skills and funding.

Good luck, and really don't take things to heart so much when you set them up and, fundamentally, ask for hardware devs to knock them down.

[alexh]

Who would create the PCB layout? What tools would you use? What CPLD/FPGA are you going to use? How many layers does it need? What are the voltage requirements of CF? Where are you going to get them manufactured? Assembled? Tested? Do you need a driver (and hence a ROM) or can you emulate a Gayle and use Kickstart? Are there any Gayle drivers in the CD32 kickstart?
Once again, alexh, you have crushed all my hopes and dreams.
You should have answers to these questions and not fear them if you really want to get anything done. If you do not have answers you should see them as challenges to be overcome.

I'm sure there's a huge market out there for an expansion like this if someone with the skills and funding were to make a project like this reality.
They just did not sell enough CD32's (especially when you consider how many are still working today and in the hands of people who will buy an upgrade).

BUT at least you were practical. Apart from the clock it was a very good proposal. Absolutely what would be needed. Non of this over the top bollox.

I created a prototype 4 Meg Fast RAM card for CD32 (which is why I know about the edge connectors). Just adding a bit of FastRAM to a CD32 really turns in into a great machine. You can load almost any WHDload game from CD! But even something as simple as that cost too much to make and did not have enough appeal!

[Rebel-CD32]

I think you took what I said the wrong way, I certainly don't think alexh is wrong, and I appreciate his input. I was merely expressing my disappointment in the reality of the situation, that there's very little chance in hell of new Amiga hardware in the future, which Alex often points out with his realistic, if sometimes a little pessimistic posts.

Trust me, this little setback isn't enough to make me lose hope. I still have heaps more ideas to throw around and I'm sure at least one of them will work.

[alexh]

there's very little chance in hell of new Amiga hardware in the future, which Alex often points out with his realistic, if sometimes a little pessimistic posts.
As pessimistic as I am, I am not averse to all ideas. I always thought that the Indivision 1200 was viable, also the IDE68k and (for non Amiga platforms) the floppy disk emulator.

If it were not for the edge connector prices, a 4Meg RAM card would be viable for the CD32 :(

[Heavy Stylus]

I created a prototype 4 Meg Fast RAM card for CD32 (which is why I know about the edge connectors). Just adding a bit of FastRAM to a CD32 really turns in into a great machine. You can load almost any WHDload game from CD! But even something as simple as that cost too much to make and did not have enough appeal!

Let me know if you want to sell it ;)

[alexh]

I have an SX32 MK1 now so I might do that in the future. It's not production quality.

[chiark]

Cool, I'm glad you're not disheartened :) . A CD32 is on my list of hardware to collect and enjoy, but I do think it needs something like you're proposing to make it more worthwhile...

What is great is that once massively expensive dev tools are now accessible to the keen hobbyist, and the tools are so, so much better than they were when stuff was put together 15 years ago... Moore's "law" in action, I guess.

[Paul_s]

World peace and end to famine are more likely :)

What about the Sooty factor with his magic wand? :p:lol

[Rebel-CD32]

Sorry to double post, I just saw your reply. As far as the answers to those questions are concerned, I can't really answer them all straight away, I was hoping if there was enough interest in it then we could start doing the research. There are certainly people out there with the talent to develop the board, but there's no point approaching them about it until we at least discuss the marketability with the community first.

There are hundreds, if not thousands, of brand new CD32s out there waiting to be sold, too. If one of the big dealers were to get a cratefull of them, and pre-install them with these theoretical expansions, they'd make a great bundle for people wanting to buy a brand new Amiga.

I'm not sure why you don't think a clock is a bad idea, though. All computers should be able to keep the time and date. Even those basic 512kb A500 expansions had them.

[Heavy Stylus]

I have an SX32 MK1 now so I might do that in the future. It's not production quality.

Actually, I've just realised that this is probably an external unit isn't it? In which case it won't fit in my very-limited console space... Ah well.

[Heavy Stylus]

What do you mean?

"There are hundreds, if not thousands, of brand new CD32s out there waiting to be sold, too."

Where? I know that a few NTSC CD32s have shown up recently, but where's the evidence to suggest this many?

[Rebel-CD32]

Okay, I'm assuming this many are available because it is the entire stock that was intended for USA release. Unless they've mostly been destroyed, which unfortunately is possible, they should all still be out there, packed away in warehouses. Those Chinese/Hong Kong sellers on eBay selling that stock would have bought a crate of them from these warehouses to sell. There are a few sellers on eBay right now selling them, at least one of them has a large quantity (60 available at the moment, although it was nearly 100 a few months ago). They must be out there, it's a shame AmigaKit or one of the other big Amiga dealers haven't bought up a few crates to sell.

[Heavy Stylus]

Can NTSC units be converted to PAL easily?

[cane]

Vesalia was selling new NTSC CD32s for 76 euros, but they are out of stock right now.

@alexh Also the FMV module has that little board with two connectors so that could be also used for bare PCB board. Off course you couldn't have both connected but who cares for FMV anyway.

[chiark]

Who cares for FMV? One opportunistic seller thinks someone might do! (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Amiga-CD32-Full-Motion-Video-Card-FMV-working_W0QQitemZ300253271664QQihZ020QQcategoryZ4193QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

[TheCorfiot]

Who cares for FMV? One opportunistic seller thinks someone might do! (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Amiga-CD32-Full-Motion-Video-Card-FMV-working_W0QQitemZ300253271664QQihZ020QQcategoryZ4193QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)


I Know...

I saw this a few days ago, Do you or the seller think someone will acrually pay that.???

TC :shocked

[alexh]

The only FMV worth watching was the Cannon Fodder extro and it's been ripped in the original MPEG for watching on the PC.

[alexh]

Okay, I'm assuming this many are available because it is the entire stock that was intended for USA release. Unless they've mostly been destroyed, which unfortunately is possible, they should all still be out there, packed away in warehouses.
Is someone really going to keep that many boxes for that many years? Can you imagine how much room you would need? I am actually surprised they kept any at all so you might be right!

However I argue the number (hundreds of thousands) is one you made up. It is innit? :D Do you not think that the real number in the warehouse in 1994 would have been much smaller? Are they really going to have manufactured much more than 1 months supply? Would one months supply have been hundreds of thousands?

I'm not sure why you don't think a clock is a bad idea, though. All computers should be able to keep the time and date. Even those basic 512kb A500 expansions had them.
And be honest, 99.99999% of Amiga users never used it. *IF* you were developing / creating things then having the correct times/dates on files was good (but far from essential).

I think that it's not applicable to CD32 because users will rarely save files on the unit (even with a CF card). Do you not agree? Valid dates on their save games?

IMHO an RTC chip and battery is just an extra cost, parts, fitting and PCB area. And you know how notorious RTC batteries are at leaking in the future!

[Paul_s]

It would be far simpler if someone just developed a ram board to go alongside the overdrive type floppy disk drive that Analogic sell. That has an RTC & VGA out on it (still need to contact analogic about that).

[alexh]

The RTC has to be removed to fit the RAM board.

[Paul_s]

:lol: i was just going to post when it clicked in my head, but like you said earlier you don't really need a rtc in any Amiga these days...

[illy5603]

What do you mean?

"There are hundreds, if not thousands, of brand new CD32s out there waiting to be sold, too."

Where? I know that a few NTSC CD32s have shown up recently, but where's the evidence to suggest this many?

Try looking on the United States eBay page. There are literally hundreds of them in China. But really, what good is an NTSC CD32?

[nujack]

I'm also interested in such a ram-board for Cd32. I also have a FMV-card and such a Diskdrive from analogic. BTW the FMV-card is working together with the Diskdrive. So if somebody will do such an expansion I would buy 2 units.

[alexh]

BTW the FMV-card is working together with the Diskdrive.
??

[Cammy]

However I argue the number (hundreds of thousands) is one you made up.

He said hundreds, if not thousands, not hundreds OF thousands. I have seen hundreds of those new NTSC ones sell over the last few years, so it's possible there could be a few hundred or even a thousand more out there, packed away in some wearhouse.

Also, if a NTSC CD32 had Workbench installed in it, could it not then just run in PAL? Would not WHDLoad games also run in PAL, using the tooltype PAL if they need it?

I have recently got a SX32 installed and working in my CD32, which I am going to be using as a normal Amiga, I have a matching dark grey A2000 keyboard plugged into it too. Although it's going to have heaps of games on it, I'm also going to be using it to develop games, learning to pixel and code Blitz. My CD32 now has an internal Compact Flash drive and a total of 10MB RAM! Up until I got the SX32 installed, I was going to be using a 1MB WB2 A600 to do these things, which would have been painful, but was my only option because A1200s are too expensive. Now I have a fully capable AGA machine with plenty of RAM to play with.

What I guess I'm saying is I think a card like this won't just be good for game, but for people wanting to use an expanded AGA Amiga for productivity as well. If I could buy an expansion like this, then buy a brand new CD32 for $120US, I wouldn't have to worry about looking for an A1200.

[Cammy]

Oh, that's $120 DELIVERED, by the way.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230208931152&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:middle:us

$50 + $70 Postage

My only question is how to get it to work with Australian power sockets. Would an ATX PSU be able to power this, or do I have to get some sort of power inverter thingomabob?

[rkauer]

Look at Stedy's page for converting PC PSU to any Amiga.

[Cammy]

I already have a 220 volt PSU for use here in Australia with my CD32, I was wondering if it would work with one of these 120 volt USA models?

[rkauer]

Why not?

The Amiga uses the output voltages, not the input one.

[illy5603]

An NTSC CD32 doesn't need anything other than a mouse to boot in "PAL" but from what I understand it isn't TRUE PAL. It is 50khz with NTSC color if I have read the threads correctly. Apparently it delivers black and white display on PAL TV's and screen roll (read unusable) when booted in PAL on an NTSC TV. From what I can tell, an NTSC CD32 is practically useless unless you have a way to get it display on something that takes true RGB like a 1084 or something similar.

I know my NTSC A1200 can't play PAL games on any of my 6 TV's when booted in PAL. When booted in NTSC you get other problems, the bottom 1/8th of the screen missing, messed up audio, lots of crashes etc.

He said hundreds, if not thousands, not hundreds OF thousands. I have seen hundreds of those new NTSC ones sell over the last few years, so it's possible there could be a few hundred or even a thousand more out there, packed away in some wearhouse.

Also, if a NTSC CD32 had Workbench installed in it, could it not then just run in PAL? Would not WHDLoad games also run in PAL, using the tooltype PAL if they need it?

I have recently got a SX32 installed and working in my CD32, which I am going to be using as a normal Amiga, I have a matching dark grey A2000 keyboard plugged into it too. Although it's going to have heaps of games on it, I'm also going to be using it to develop games, learning to pixel and code Blitz. My CD32 now has an internal Compact Flash drive and a total of 10MB RAM! Up until I got the SX32 installed, I was going to be using a 1MB WB2 A600 to do these things, which would have been painful, but was my only option because A1200s are too expensive. Now I have a fully capable AGA machine with plenty of RAM to play with.

What I guess I'm saying is I think a card like this won't just be good for game, but for people wanting to use an expanded AGA Amiga for productivity as well. If I could buy an expansion like this, then buy a brand new CD32 for $120US, I wouldn't have to worry about looking for an A1200.

[Cammy]

Wow, really??? All the more reason for a CD32 version of the IndivisionAGA Flicker Fixer, huh!

[alexh]

He said hundreds, if not thousands, not hundreds OF thousands.
My mistake.

I have seen hundreds of those new NTSC ones sell over the last few years, so it's possible there could be a few hundred or even a thousand more out there, packed away in some warehouse.
Seen sell or seen advertised? Could it not be the same ones over and over?

Also, if a NTSC CD32 had Workbench installed in it, could it not then just run in PAL? Would not WHDLoad games also run in PAL, using the tooltype PAL if they need it?
Edit: As said, output would be in B&W on PAL TV's. It would cause picture to roll on NTSC TV (if it did not support 50Hz)

Wow, really??? All the more reason for a CD32 version of the IndivisionAGA Flicker Fixer, huh!
Heh, yeah. But if Jen's isn't going into production with his A600 accelerator then he isn't going to produce a CD32 flicker fixer!

A1200s are too expensive
An A1200 was more expensive than an SX32? You're shitting me? In the UK they are roughly 1/3 the price of an SX32!

What I guess I'm saying is I think a card like this won't just be good for game, but for people wanting to use an expanded AGA Amiga for productivity as well. If I could buy an expansion like this, then buy a brand new CD32 for $120US, I wouldn't have to worry about looking for an A1200.
New CD32 = $120US
CD32 expansion = $120 US (at least)
Total = $240 US

I am sure you could get a nice A1200 with all the trimmings for that price?

I do not believe you can quote economics like this as a purchase justification. (You would just be fooling yourself) Either people want one of these because they think its cool, like their CD32 and want one or they don't. IMHO no one would see this as a cheap alternative to A1200.

The suggested upgrade mentioned in this thread is not an SX32 replacement. It would perhaps not be good enough as an A1200 alternative (No floppy drive, no expansion ports)?

[tonyyeb]

I've just got myself a tidy little A1200 (well it is on it's way) rather than a CD32. I like the CD32 but the A1200 offers so much more for less outlay. Plus the expansion options are more readily available.

[alexh]

But the CD32 has a much higher "wife acceptability factor" when it comes to leaving it permanently set up connected to the main TV in the living room.

[tonyyeb]

But the CD32 has a much higher "wife acceptability factor" when it comes to leaving it permanently set up connected to the main TV in the living room.

Possibly but I have a large drawer under the TV in the spare room where both A600 and A1200 will fit nicely, tucked away ;)

[alexh]

Ah, but if you run off into the spare room all the time you'll soon suffer from nags like "You love that stoopid computer more than you love me!" and "You're at work all day and then you go straight into the spare room I hardly ever see you!"

CD32 under the TV in the living room... you play the odd game between soaps and occasionally say "So what did you do today love?"

[tonyyeb]

Hmmm... already getting those statements... long before Amiga's returned to my life.... one more wont harm! I will get a CD32 at some point but three is enough at the moment!

[TheCorfiot]

you play the odd game between soaps and occasionally say "So what did you do today love?"


:laughing:laughing:laughing:laughing:laughing

[rkauer]

Hey! Are you people recording the complains of my wife?:scream

Or wifies around the the world are all the same, sigh...:agree

[Paul_s]

when anyone says have I got a girlfriend I say yes - I have 7.

:spin

[gklinger]

They're all sisters.

[alexh]

when anyone says have I got a girlfriend I say yes - I have 7.
Ouch! What happened to your other three fingers? :rolleyes

[Cammy]

Good idea, let's all talk about wives. Why won't any of your wives let you fill your houses with Amigas and play games on the main TVs? Are they boring or something? Did you marry the wrong person? Do you regret it?

[musojon74]

Hmmm, how many of our ladies "like" the Amigas, that's the question. Mine is not too impressed! :)

[alexh]

I bet it's 10 times worse if your wife is technically illiterate but speaks spanish and you say to her:

"I'm just going to go upstairs for an hour with my Amiga"

[rkauer]

I bet it's 10 times worse if your wife is technically illiterate but speaks spanish and you say to her:

"I'm just going to go upstairs for an hour with my Amiga"

Or portuguese, that's the very same meaning on those two languages and means "female friend".

[alexh]

I know!

I mean she's already mad at you because you didn't do the washing up when she was away because "you sprained your wrist waggling your joystick all evening".

[TheCorfiot]

Good idea, let's all talk about wives. Why won't any of your wives let you fill your houses with Amigas and play games on the main TVs? Are they boring or something? Did you marry the wrong person? Do you regret it?


Unlike your goodself Cammy, I think most women have an inferiority complex by that White box with keys on it, My wife does not hate my amigas just does not see the attraction ;)

TC :D

[Paul_s]

Good idea, let's all talk about wives. Why won't any of your wives let you fill your houses with Amigas and play games on the main TVs? Are they boring or something? Did you marry the wrong person? Do you regret it?

:laughing When I eventually get married I'm having Amiga usage included in the bloody vows! :cheese

[Zetr0]

Hopping back on topic,

as this wifely discussion is far to close to my home LOL, technically speaking a production run of CD32 expansions wont be as expensive as you might suggest.

Firstly you only need ONE 182MCA adapter (although you can use a cut down 200MCA) I will find some links.

anyway, that to one side the port you use after can be anything, even a PCI port, which has plenty enough signal lines for CPU/Ram and IDE/SCSI upgrade. as you can see the benfit of creating a 182MCA to a common interface will make upgrades much cheaper instead of using 2 per upgrade.

still 5000 units.... its a lot to buy unless you had a definite market.... that is... unless you could tool the ports yourself...

still i am under the idea of getting a regular 200MCA port and cut it down ... much easier...

develop a simple interface board to say PCI or AGP and then develop your additional cards based on that premise...

I have a 200pin port cut down to 182, I just need time (its almost like gold dust atm!!) to dev up the adapter board.

[alexh]

Firstly you only need ONE 182MCA adapter (although you can use a cut down 200MCA) I will find some links.
It doesn't really matter if you use one or two because you'll have to buy at least 1000 of either and I doubt you'd make that many.

as you can see the benefit of creating a 182MCA to a common interface will make upgrades much cheaper instead of using 2 per upgrade.
Sure. The SX32, SX32 Pro, SX32 MKII and CD32fWSI already use this technique. They have a backplane consisting of two 182-pin MCA connectors which turn the expansion connector 180 degrees. The expansions themselves do not have connectors they are just PCB card edges and are the same price to produce whatever they are plugged into.

The only reason not to use two 182-pin MCA connectors would be if you planned to sell more units than 1/2 the MOQ of this part.

still i am under the idea of getting a regular 200MCA port and cut it down ... much easier...
Can you get them with no MOQ? Or sub $1 pricing? That is what you'd need.

[FOL]

Good idea, let's all talk about wives. Why won't any of your wives let you fill your houses with Amigas and play games on the main TVs? Are they boring or something? Did you marry the wrong person? Do you regret it?

LMFAO, I married the perfect women. She does'nt mind my amiga's, she even plays lotus and pinball on them, :).

So no, I dont regret anything, ;).

Back on topic. I love the idea of a CD32 Expansion.

[gulliver]

I was thinking RTC is worthless to an Amiga user, and it wil add complexity and cost to the design.
On the other hand, an A1200 style clockport header, should enable to optionally build a RTC and provide users the posibility of using Delfina soundcard and even better subway USB thingy, which will enable lots of expansion devices.

My 1 cent

[alexh]

an A1200 style clockport header will enable lots of expansion devices.
Not impossible. You'd have to recreate the missing logic using a CPLD but sure. All the information is freely available including the address offsets you'd need to re-create the chipselects.

http://www.ianstedman.co.uk/Amiga/amiga_h_w/clock_port/clock_port.html

[Charlie]

FWIW:
My CD32 remains my favourite and most used Amiga - if you don't count hardware butchering...

I would buy such an upgrade in a (compact)flash! (har-har!)

I'd go with Alexh on the subject of RGB rather than battery backup, though if one could have both...
(personally I have no complaints about the CD32's S-Video)

Question:
I realise this may push such a project into the hobby-zone rather than 'for sale'...
The expense of the edge-connector is the stumbling block here..? (Oh, and someone's got to design it)

Most Amiga edge-connectors can be butchered-together from ISA/PCI connectors which are rather more available.
Same true of the CD32 one?

or

Does one have to use the edge-connector at all?
If we're talking (semi)DIY couldn't the necessary signals not be obtained direct from the mobo?
Either via sockets as per many of the current upgrades or if need-be directly soldering to pins..?

[Stedy]

Hi,

Digikey have the 182 pin connectors @ $9.70 each with an MOQ of 50.
Search for 302-182-520-201

Sorry to be retro but what about adding a floppy drive interface?
I remember there was a design to add one to the CD32 on Aminet, if you connector via the expansion ports, it should be easier.

Ian

[alexh]

Digikey have the 182 pin connectors @ $9.70 each with an MOQ of 50. Search for 302-182-520-201
Damn good find.

When it says "price break" 50, do you really have to order 50?

Very cool. There is nothing standing in the way of making and selling some sort of CD32 addon now.

[tonyyeb]

There is nothing standing in the way of making and selling some sort of CD32 addon now.

Crack on then! ;)

[alexh]

I've got an SX-32 for my CD32 and a home-brew 4Meg RAM expansion and some spare MCA connectors in the draw. I'm good thanks.

[chiark]

Digikey don't rigidly adhere to the minimum order quantity, either... They have a minimum order of 18 for Spartan 3 chips, however I managed to order 3 :)

[musashi5150]

...you play the odd game between soaps and occasionally say "So what did you do today love?"

I like your style alexh ;)

[alexh]

That black-hole dude, Stephen Hawkins has it made. He just has a load of pre-programmed wife "questions and answers" and rattles through them...

[musashi5150]

...in a random order to make him seem interesting and different. He probably has fit nurses to look after him too ;)

[Graham Humphrey]

Can we drift back on-topic please ;)

[Deaths_Head]

Cool... Well If this happens I'd be up for buying an expansion so long as its affordable.

[lolafg]

Hello,
I am waiting a cd32 with floppy drive extension bought from analogic computers , i just wanted to know what i'll be able to do with this extension and would like to know how i could put an hdd in or out the cd32 ?
Thanks in advance!!

[alexh]

i just wanted to know what i'll be able to do with "a cd32 with floppy drive extension bought from analogic computers"
Play CD32 games from CD. Play Amiga games from floppy disks. Listen to CD's through your TV ;)

and would like to know how i could put an hdd in or out the cd32 ?
Sell your analogic floppy drive extension and buy an SX32 instead?

i.e. What I mean is you cannot connect a HDD to a CD32 using an analogic floppy drive extension.

[lolafg]

Hi Alexh,
thanks for your answer , so if i can't plug an hdd to this floppy drive extension , i won't be able to play games with whdload...something comes to me , would it be possible to install whdload in a workbench disk an run whdload games from a cd ?

[alexh]

Hi Alexh,
would it be possible to install whdload in a workbench disk an run whdload games from a cd ?
Yes, but you don't necessarily need workbench. People have already created their own CD32 discs which have WHDload games on and a special menu which you can select games using the Joypad.

You are limited to games that work with 2Mbytes of RAM.

Of course these discs were created for regular CD32 consoles without the floppy disk extension.

[lolafg]

Thank you Alexh,
are those cd32 discs the "cd32-100 ;cd32-200 ..." ?

[alexh]

Yup.

[lolafg]

Ok thanks !!

[Fingerlickin_B]

Since upgrading my A1200 I've now got a spare 8mb/FPU expansion card.

How "possible" would it be to make this work in my CD32? :blased

PZ.

[alexh]

Yes, I have done this in the past. My first design was to try and make an adapter for A1200 cards, although I only ever tried a Hawk 8Meg RAM card.

You'd need to make your own board though, 182-pin MCA to A1200 edge. I've got the pinouts, schematics and logics somewhere...

But the design is fugly, A1200 card sticking out the back of CD32 just like SX1

[Fingerlickin_B]

How complicated was it Alex? Requires logic chips aye?

PZ.

[alexh]

It was mainly passive. Two layer PCB with vias and a very rare right angle MCA182 pin connector. (Otherwise your 8 Meg card would be sticking up vertically)

I think I needed an 74LS chip to make one signal which doesn't exist on CD32 expansion. Cannot remember the exact details. It was many years ago.

Start by looking at the A1200 expansion connector signals and CD32 expansion connector signals and pairing them. Some pins have same function but different names so a bit of research is required to eliminate last few.

[Fingerlickin_B]

Figuring that out is waaaaay out of my league man...building it, no, but the rest :(

Cheers for the info anyway :) Not sure if I want a card hanging out the back like SX1 anyway, so I'll just deal with 2mb for now.

PZ.

[alexh]

I had planned to "turn it around" just like the SX32 using two MCA connectors but I decided to scrap it and make my own 4Meg RAM expansion which fitted inside with only 1 MCA connector.

I built the prototype and then the bombshell of the MOQ of 1000 from AdamTech came through.

And I managed to get an SX32 for £55 :)

[Fingerlickin_B]

I built the prototype and then the bombshell of the MOQ of 1000 from AdamTech came through.

Huh? (you know I'm retarded :laughing )

[alexh]

At the time the only place to get the 182-pin MCA (CD32 expansion connectors) was Adamtech and they would only sell to me in quantities of no less than 1000 (at about $5 (£5?) each)

[Fingerlickin_B]

Ah, MOQ = Minimum Order Quantity! :)

PZ.

[Photon]

"IN THE OOOLD DAYS"... we used to unsolder connector and components off used parts. (And live in a hole in the road and have gravel for tea etc :P)

Very unstandard connector? Then not possible I guess.


Like the idea, unfortunately it is not viable due to the cost of the edge connectors :(

They cost $5 each, you need two per console and they have an MOQ of over 1000. That means you need $5000 investment before you even start building the first prototype.

BTW: The only company selling this connector is Adam-Tech (182-pin MCA connector)

I looked into it a few years ago and you could not come in at a retail price below a second hand SX32 or SX1. (£55-85)

What would be easiest would be to communicate with the UK company Analogic. See how many CD32 Floppy disk drive units they have left. Ask how many they sold and maybe create an add in for that unit? That would just be a PCB.

P.S. No-one wants a battery backed clock! Add RGB out instead.

[lolafg]

Hi ,
I was thinkink on something , as in the floppy drive from analogic computers , there is a clockport , would it be possible to plug an usb controler (subway...) ?
If it were possible , an hd could be plug no ?

[alexh]

No. Not without new hardware.

[rkauer]

I think Alexh is stating: not without an accelerator! The EC020 is not "strong" enough to push an USB controller.

BTW: if you have the Subway attached, from what boot device you run the stack (Poseidon) at first to mount the HD?

[alexh]

I think Alexh is stating: not without an accelerator!
Not what I was trying to say.

It is not possible to connect a subway or a HDD directly to a CD32fwsi (the analogic CD32 floppy thingy) without an extra bit of hardware that has yet to be created (and probably never will be)

[DarkSky]

Hello everyone, love the post.
For years I have been thinking of this same exact thing. Creating a brand new and improved expansion for the CD32. I had thought of adding a CF adapter to my SX-1.. which I think is definitely the right way to go for a new expansion! I think this is a very progessive post and you guys are hitting a lot of the right points.
I'm very excited to see others talking about this. For awhile I thought I was the only one.

I love the idea of Expanding the CD32 with just enough of the right things, sounds like a solid plan. I thought about adding a cardbus slot, It's small, adapts to many peripherals and accessories. This single slot could be used for countless additions.

Adding a new processor: I like the idea if it's possible, the more processing power available is always beneficial and could lead to users being able to install alternative operating systems if one chose, such as Linux. Esp. if it's something in the Power PC department.

Perhaps adding an Ethernet port for internet and network connections. I think this would be very useful.

I do find ports for keyboard and mouse very redundant like most of you.

Adding a port for an external floppy drive is a good idea, esp. if you want to transfer games from your old disks. However, most games and software these days can be found online and written to the CF. So I can see that a port for any external drive is just an added perk and not following the goal of adding whats needed to keep costs down.
So essentially it's not needed.

Graphics card port: If this can be added, in any form, would truly increase the function of an A1200, perhaps adding the A1200's expansion slot to the CD32.
I was thinking the CD32 could possibly make a great DVD player is the capability was added, but I think I'm stretching it, just a bit, :P

Another thought I had was to add enough power to the CD32 to drive a webcam. Which I feel is far more of a possibility.

Early last year, or perhaps before that. I contacted Jens Schönfeld of Individual Computers about creating a new expansion with an ethernet port added to allow the CD32 to access the net. I have him a good reason why and how many Cd32 owners are still out there hungry to use their machines. At first he showed no interest at all saying my "ideas" sounded more like a wish list, lol. Put off by that comment I sent a rebuttal stating "these are indeed 'Ideas', not hardware 'designs'." He saw my point, but we left it at that. Pre-knowing he most likely receives lots of "can you build this" requests, I purposely let him know my knowledge of that. Though he may have over looked it. Months to almost a year later, emailing him again about it using a different email. He said he had planned to work on an ethernet interface for the CD32, not for internet use but for networking between other Amigas. He felt the CD32 would not be powerful enough for internet browsing with todays websites. Not sure if that is right, but i thought it would be interesting to pass on his comment. I worked as a web designer in Manhattan so I know how some sites can use up resources, but I still feel the CD32 can access websites with no serious issue other than slow access if the drivers are not implemented correctly.
I don't think he has enough interest in it to really produce it however. But I thought you guys may want to hear it.

I think keeping the expansion small is very smart. The CF card, w/ PCMCIA cardbus slot alone would be amazing. But the addition of a stronger processor and more RAM would be amazing.

[alexh]

I thought about adding a cardbus slot, It's small, adapts to many peripherals and accessories. This single slot could be used for countless additions.
Cardbus is difficult. It is PCI and so requires a PCI->Amiga bridge like the Mediator, G-Rex and Prometheus plus countless drivers and software.

Adding a new processor
Possible, but not practical due to availability. Perhaps if we could find a regular supply of low cost 060 processors it might become more realistic.

Perhaps adding an Ethernet port for internet and network connections. I think this would be very useful.
Internet on CD32 would be a waste of time. File transfer over the network is a benefit but CD32 has an optical drive. It would be quicker to burn a CD than use ethernet for most things. Plus an external CF card slot would be cheaper, easier and faster too.

I can see that a port for any external drive is [snip] essentially not needed.
Yup.

Graphics card port: If this can be added, in any form, would truly increase the function of an A1200
Like cardbus & CPU it is possible but not really practical. The CD32 is physically not capable of taking full size gfx cards. You'd need either need a supply of gfx chips (ones which already have Amiga drivers) to become part of your design (not going to happen) or perhaps add a laptop MiniPCI slot?

Seriously though... too expensive.

perhaps adding the A1200's expansion slot to the CD32.
And where would these cards go? The advantage of the CD32 is it's form factor, last thing you'd want would be a whopping big box sticking out the back!

I was thinking the CD32 could possibly make a great DVD player is the capability was added, but I think I'm stretching it, just a bit, :P
You're stretching it a bit. The CD32's drive mechanism is not IDE, it's a custom design so you'd have to add an external DVD drive and then you'd need a hardware MPEG decoder as the CPU just would not be powerful enough. With DVD players costing £9.99 in supermarkets, this is not practical.

Another thought I had was to add enough power to the CD32 to drive a webcam. Which I feel is far more of a possibility.
WTF for?

I contacted Jens Schönfeld of Individual Computers. At first he showed no interest at all saying my "ideas" sounded more like a wish list, lol.
He'd be right.

He said he had planned to work on an ethernet interface for the CD32, not for internet use but for networking between other Amigas.
WTF for? CD32 has a serial port for networking between other Amiga's and it has an optical drive for transferring files from the PC!

He felt the CD32 would not be powerful enough for internet browsing with todays websites. Not sure if that is right
He is.

Here is a list of features we've covered and my opinion on their practicality:

RAM = YES
HDD / CF = YES
Analog 15KHz RGB = Yes
PCMCIA / PC-Card = Maybe / Yes
Floppy disk port = Maybe / Yes
CPU = Maybe / No
Legacy ports = Maybe / No
Cardbus = No
GFX card = No
Ethernet = No
USB = No

[DarkSky]

Cardbus is difficult. It is PCI and so requires a PCI->Amiga bridge like the Mediator, G-Rex and Prometheus plus countless drivers and software.

It would still provide all the expansion one would desire. Cardbus is fundamentally PCMCIA technology, so I would imagine a similar effort would need to be taken to implement it. Regardless PCMCIA/Cardbus same thought going on there.

Internet on CD32 would be a waste of time. File transfer over the network is a benefit but CD32 has an optical drive. It would be quicker to burn a CD than use ethernet for most things.

Burning a CD is faster? I would think by the time you put the CD into the drive the files would already have been transferred. It would be a convenience more than a need , but then again do we even need any of this? I'll answer, nope :p
As far as internet, I think it would be quite novel to let the CD32 connect, for whatever purpose users could dream up. Even if it's just to run an IRC chat app. But I'm sure more useful purposes could be explored.

Plus an external CF card slot would be cheaper, easier and faster too.

I agree. A second CF, external or just a second slot added to the expansion unit would be the logical way to go. Even through PCMCIA.

Like cardbus & CPU it is possible but not really practical. The CD32 is physically not capable of taking full size gfx cards. You'd need either need a supply of gfx chips (ones which already have Amiga drivers) to become part of your design (not going to happen) or perhaps add a laptop MiniPCI slot?

Seriously though... too expensive.

I never even imagined using a full size graphics card, although I suppose if one was able to be adopted, (fantasy scenario), it could possibly fit inside such as the SX32 expansion series. As silly and far fetched an idea sounds, throwing it around is helpful to get the brain thinking.

And where would these cards go? The advantage of the CD32 is it's form factor, last thing you'd want would be a whopping big box sticking out the back!

Totally, I thought the A1200 expansion clock port was quite small.
But expansion, no matter how grandiose it may sound. Could still be designed to fit the form factor. Like a thin box under the CD32, leave the space inside it open for even more expansion. If that is ones goal.

You're stretching it a bit. The CD32's drive mechanism is not IDE, it's a custom design so you'd have to add an external DVD drive and then you'd need a hardware MPEG decoder as the CPU just would not be powerful enough. With DVD players costing £9.99 in supermarkets, this is not practical.

I know I was ;)

WTF for?

"drive a webcam" Why the hell not? :crying
I mean, if it was possible, you could turn your CD32 into a webcam server adding use to an old machine that may otherwise go unused.
You could broadcast a webcam of your pet through the net and watch it while your on vacation, have fun showing yourself, or even connect a cam for scientific purposes.. like using a cam to peer through a microscope. Or gaze at the night sky through a telescope. Ive seen a lot of things done with web cameras.

He'd be right.
No he wouldn't, proof in point, "He saw my point".
Its obvious we are all sharing ideas that can be useful. A wish is different in this context, even if an idea is based on a wish. Hell, I wish I could turn my CD32 into a remote satellite CB.. with Video. Hmm, not a bad idea!! :D

WTF for? CD32 has a serial port for networking between other Amiga's and it has an optical drive for transferring files from the PC!

I think he felt ethernet would be faster and more convenient, so do I.
One could setup a games/software repository online, connect to it with your CD32 and download without the need of using a second computer.

He is.

Maybe, but I'm far more inclined that it can be. It really depends a lot on the software the OS your running supports and the drivers. Of course if you intend to view flash video or flash animation, you would need OS support. If thats not possible due to the limitations of the OS or hardware processor used, well then tough cookies. But not all websites use heavy graphics or flash. Besides if the CD32 can run games like Ultimate body blows, mortal combat, stardust, dragonstone, shadow of the beast III, or leander; I think it can view most any website. I even ran Brilliance off of my CD32.

Here is a list of features we've covered and my opinion on their practicality:

RAM = YES
HDD / CF = YES
Analog 15KHz RGB = Yes
PCMCIA / PC-Card = Maybe / Yes
Floppy disk port = Maybe / Yes
CPU = Maybe / No
Legacy ports = Maybe / No
Cardbus = No
GFX card = No
Ethernet = No
USB = No

I agree with most of it, when I said Cardbus I was indeed thinking a of a PCMCIA slot of any sort. But as I stated above, from what I've read about it, cardbus technology is still PCMCIA technology just under a different name. Such as was PCMCIA I, II, and III. But it doesn't even matter. PCMCIA II would be very handy if for some reason the pcmcia cardbus technology adds a level of difficulty to implement. Although the speed increase of cardbus would be welcome. It could be the catalyst that drives a faster CF transfer.

Ethernet is so basic that I can't see why it shouldn't be a viable option.

As for the CPU. Perhaps adding the port for it but letting the consumer find their own would be the answer to implementing it. At least the option is there, if the cost of developing is viable of course.

Perhaps we could play up on the sound capabilities of the CD32 in some way? I wonder if anything could be added to that end, to enhance audio function/transfer/playback? Maybe just adding S/PDIF, TOSLINK, XLR. Personally I have no use for it, but I can see someone who is into manipulating music, a musician, or DJ who likes to mess with retro sounds.
Or just something simple like adding the normal sized 1/4" stereo headphone jack, and more convenient input and outputs for those who want to hook up more pro equipment. Perhaps even the clip style stereo wire ports providing hookup to regular stereo speakers. Actually I like this idea. If a savvy codeslinger can be found, software could be written, if it doesn't already exist to interface with an IR device. IR can be implemented into the expansion to allow a remote to interface with a jute box software.
If the expansion will be inside the CD32, a small antenna like structure can be added to the top with the IR led on it. Seeing how the audio capabilities of the CD32 are so profound, we should at least explore and exploit it to enhance the usability to anyone who wants to harness it in a more convenient way.

[alexh]

Cardbus is fundamentally PCMCIA technology, so I would imagine a similar effort would need to be taken to implement it.
Not true. PC-Card is ISA and CardBus is PCI. Chalk and cheese mate.

Burning a CD is faster? I would think by the time you put the CD into the drive the files would already have been transferred.
You've obviously not used Ethernet on an Amiga have you? A 100Mbyte file, I'd be able to burn at least 2 CD's before you could transfer the data over ethernet.

Totally, I thought the A1200 expansion clock port was quite small.
Clockport would be feasible, but you meant a full trap door expansion which took accelerators!

You could broadcast a webcam of your pet through the net and watch it while your on vacation
You evil bastard :shocked I am going to report you to the RSPCA!! :D

Ive seen a lot of things done with web cameras.
I bet you have... Most involving the use of a credit card no doubt. ;)

One could setup a games/software repository online, connect to it with your CD32 and download without the need of using a second computer.
WTF for? One could just burn a CD too and be done! It's a stoopid idea. So much work for almost no benefit. You've been using a modern computer too long so as not to see the practical pitfalls of your idea.

If the CD32 can run games like Ultimate body blows, mortal combat, stardust, dragonstone, shadow of the beast III, or leander; I think it can view most any website.
Cool, I'll expect you to write the new compatible web-browser software eh? Something that has eluded even the best Amiga programmers and zealots even on big box Amiga? You've obviously never used an Amiga to browse the net. It is a painful experience even on a 50MHz 060 with loads of RAM let alone a 14MHz EC020 with 10Mbytes of RAM!

I agree with most of it, when I said Cardbus I was indeed thinking a of a PCMCIA slot of any sort. But as I stated above, from what I've read about it, cardbus technology is still PCMCIA technology just under a different name. Such as was PCMCIA I, II, and III. But it doesn't even matter. PCMCIA II would be very handy if for some reason the pcmcia cardbus technology adds a level of difficulty to implement. Although the speed increase of cardbus would be welcome. It could be the catalyst that drives a faster CF transfer.
It is quite obvious that you are not technically minded in any way shape or form :)

Ethernet is so basic that I can't see why it shouldn't be a viable option.
So much investment, time, expense, software for little or no benefit to the system as a whole.

As for the CPU. Perhaps adding the port for it but letting the consumer find their own would be the answer to implementing it. At least the option is there, if the cost of developing is viable of course.
Not viable if you ask me.

[Reynolds]

I think the most and only things which needed for a CD32 to expand it's capabilities is RAM and CF adapter. With anything more you loose the extraordinary spirit of the machine :)
A simple simm slot for an 8 mgz module and two CF slot, one internal to act as a hard drive, and a second for transfer files easily from an A600/1200 or a laptop. With a small flashrom the internal probably can be a bootable device, and the CD can be used as an alternative device for stored goodies. BTW I would be thankful even if the CD32 could read CDRWs too.

[alexh]

BTW I would be thankful even if the CD32 could read CDRWs too.
Take a risk, trim that laser diode pot.

[DarkSky]

Not true. PC-Card is ISA and CardBus is PCI. Chalk and cheese mate.

I'm just quoting from what I've read in more than one place.

You've obviously not used Ethernet on an Amiga have you? A 100Mbyte file, I'd be able to burn at least 2 CD's before you could transfer the data over ethernet.

No I haven't. I have had only two Amiga's the A500 and CD32, neither had that option of ethernet course. It's a bloody shame it's that slow then. Too bad that a 10/100 port couldn't be taken advantage of.

Clockport would be feasible, but you meant a full trap door expansion which took accelerators!

No, really I meant the clock port.
I've only read about the A1200's abilities, so I'm unfamiliar of the expansion trap door. I read how the clock port was used for expansion.

You evil bastard :shocked I am going to report you to the RSPCA!! :D

LOL, Yeah I can see it now: "A dismal scene in the suburbs today, local police found what seems to be a decayed corpse of some family animal left home without food or water. Reports say a webcam was found at the scene braodcasting the tragic event over a publicly viewable website."
Do you have a pet? I charge for my services.

I bet you have... Most involving the use of a credit card no doubt. ;)

Your leaving yourself so open for the perfect "Mom" joke, but I won't take it. It just seems like the wrong thing to do. ;)

WTF for? One could just burn a CD too and be done! It's a stoopid idea. So much work for almost no benefit. You've been using a modern computer too long so as not to see the practical pitfalls of your idea.

Tell that to the guys still using dial up and connecting to bbs! (don't ask why)
Since that's where the idea came from. And Jens Schönfeld of course.

(I would think older software, not being large files at all. Would download from even a text website repository in record time if a halfway decent internet connction speed was obtainable. Even through FTP.
Apparently not tho due to your Amiga internet experience being so dismal.
Again it's a shame the speed of even a network from 1994 can't be obtained on the CD32, I rather liked the idea of using only the CD32 without the need for a second computer. But I see what you mean.)

Cool, I'll expect you to write the new compatible web-browser software eh? Something that has eluded even the best Amiga programmers and zealots even on big box Amiga? You've obviously never used an Amiga to browse the net. It is a painful experience even on a 50MHz 060 with loads of RAM let alone a 14MHz EC020 with 10Mbytes of RAM!

Nope never, I was using the Internet on my fathers Windows 3.1 then 95 machine on dial-up when I was playing games on my A500 and CD32. So I hadn't even thought the experience of the internet on an Amiga would be so painful. Espacially these days with braodband so prolific. I guess Windows was good for something after all then! Even for those old dinosaur computers, the internet speed was quite respectable. I do remeber waiting for jpeg photos to load which took, at least 12 seconds over dial up. I don't think dial up in any form is going to make anyone happy anymore.

I heard ibrowse and voyager were actually quite good Amiga browsers. But I guess not. I'm sure nothing has been made in the browse dept for classic amiga for some time.

It is quite obvious that you are not technically minded in any way shape or form :)

Of course your incredibly wrong.. Though I should have known better, it's quite obvious there's always a forum user who likes to reply in insults. Wether to get a rise out of others or for some other immature reason. Besides, I'm not here to tell anyone how to build it, or even if it's possible. I make suggested ideas that would be useful. If it's not feasable to do something, then it's not feasable. If it's not practicle, then it's not. But what is feasable, is. You can't assume someone has no bearings on technical information because they don't know the technology behind the PCMCIA/Cardbus interface. Like I said, It's just what Ive read about cardbus and PCMCIA, I have no idea if it's correct or even how to construct one from scratch. But that obviously does not mean I have no knowledge of other aspects of technical information. You do come across rather sarcastic and brash, for whatever reason you have. Most of it I ignore, however unwarranted it is. If it's your way of joking around, I guess I just dont see any humor in it.

So much investment, time, expense, software for little or no benefit to the system as a whole.

If implimenting an ethernet port cannot obtain adequate speed for networking or internet transfer, then yes, its a waste totally.

Talking about the actual benefit to the system as a whole, not with ethernet but everything. I see it as this; adding some modern function to the CD32 to be able to use the machine for some, if any practical application today is what my premise is. If that's not possible or even the goal then personally I wouldn't even entertain the idea. Aside from the slim chance an actual expansion does get built. The most useful idea here is to use Compact Flash as a hard drive. I think a lot of CD32 owners are intrested in using it as a computer, not just for old games.

I have an SX-1 and I can do more with that then the supposed expansion here. So I'm not personally interested in buying a new expansion. As I can mod my CD32 and SX-2 on my own. But I will assume this expansion would be for anyone who dosen't already own a useable expansion to the CD32, or just wants a new toy. I think most people who want to play games only would just use UAE and be done with it. But for those who want to play on an actual Amiga, pretty much it would be cheaper to find an A1200. But for those who love the CD32, I have to admit it's got appeal. I think expanding on it's ability to become a real useable computer is it's major appeal and thats what I would be focusing on. But others may have a different opinion and thats ok.

Personally I've decided to turn my CD32 into a machine with a bit more aduio function like I sated in my last post, since I can do this myself easily. Most of it will just be mod's to make it more convienient to hook up some equipment for the fun of it. I'm not in the music industry so I don't need XLR nor an ubundance of jacks. I'm going to I'll be adding a CF card, and Maybe hookup a modem for faxing. These are simple additions that I can do on my own.
I offered some suggestions to get people thinking what would be useful to them. The CD32 got the bum end of Commodore and I always hated the idea that the system never saw it's full potential. I like toying around with it so I've kept it around. And I do have a peeve about having an old system collecting dust. I think any computer can be used for something, wether it should be or not is up to the individual.

Not viable if you ask me.

I do know there are guys out there making PCI and other cards that leave a spot open for the old Comodore 64 SID chip, to produce the original audio of the c64. Two different animals cpu/sid auido but the same conecept. The SID is of course not made anymore, so they leave it up to the user to find them. But it's useful enough to have that implemented for those who desire it. It may be so for a new CPU on the CD32, but alas what would be nice to have might not be cost effective to do.


I guess that sums it up.

[alexh]

Tell that to the guys still using dial up and connecting to bbs!
I dont think there are such people these days? Even the BBS's now have telnet access.

I hadn't even thought the experience of the internet on an Amiga would be so painful.
I challenge you to go back to a PC that ran Windows 3.1 and Internet Explorer 3 and see if it is any fun. At the time you did not realise how bad it was because you did not know how good it could get.

I hadn't even thought the experience of the internet on an Amiga would be so painful especially these days with broadband so prolific.
It's not connection speed, it's rendering speed and accuracy.

I heard ibrowse and voyager were actually quite good Amiga browsers.
They were acceptable, 8 years ago. The net has moved on since then. CSS, Java, Flash, XML, Active-X, Silverlight etc. etc.

It is quite obvious that you are not technically minded in any way shape or form :)Of course your incredibly wrong..
You're technically minded yet you never looked into the difference between PC-Card and Cardbus before suggesting it as an idea?

You can't assume someone has no bearings on technical information because they don't know the technology behind the PCMCIA/Cardbus interface.
Why not? If you're going to suggest something as an idea you research it a little bit, just a few minutes would have been enough.

You do come across rather sarcastic and brash, for whatever reason you have.
Dont take it personally, it's just me.

I see it as this; adding some modern function to the CD32 to be able to use the machine for some, if any practical application today is what my premise is.
Oh, erm. Ok. Not sure I understand the subtleties of that statement.

The most useful idea here is to use Compact Flash as a hard drive. I think a lot of CD32 owners are interested in using it as a computer, not just for old games. I think expanding on it's ability to become a real usable computer is it's major appeal and that's what I would be focusing on.
Nah, right tool for the right job, use an A1200 or an A4000. Gone are the times where you'd not be able to afford an A1200 AND a CD32.

Any CD32 expansion IMHO should try to make it a better CD32, more compatible with non-CD32 software. Nothing more.

Interesting debate.

[DarkSky]

I think the most and only things which needed for a CD32 to expand it's capabilities is RAM and CF adapter. With anything more you loose the extraordinary spirit of the machine :)
A simple simm slot for an 8 mgz module and two CF slot, one internal to act as a hard drive, and a second for transfer files easily from an A600/1200 or a laptop. With a small flashrom the internal probably can be a bootable device, and the CD can be used as an alternative device for stored goodies. BTW I would be thankful even if the CD32 could read CDRWs too.

I agree that 2 CF's one internal, and somewhat RAM are the most beneficial. If we are taking about keeping it at 8mb then of course the machine wont do flips. But without a new processor, there is not much need to go beyond 8mb depending on what you want to run on your machine.

If the CD32 was a CD writer that would be a blast.
It would have been nice if Commodore built the FMV module directly into the CD32.

[alexh]

It would have been nice if Commodore built the FMV module directly into the CD32.
Do you remember what it cost? Why do you think they are so rare today?

Edit: I think they were $399 RRP in 1994 (about $710 todays money)

[DarkSky]

I challenge you to go back to a PC that ran Windows 3.1 and Internet Explorer 3 and see if it is any fun. At the time you did not realise how bad it was because you did not know how good it could get.

I might just do it to torture myself. But more so to see how ethernet speeds are with a broadband connection.

You're technically minded yet you never looked into the difference between PC-Card and Cardbus before suggesting it as an idea?

Yes

You can't assume someone has no bearings on technical information because they don't know the technology behind the PCMCIA/Cardbus interface.

Never worked out that PCMCIA is not a type of interface but is actually the standards body (Personal Computer Memory Card International Association)?

I said technology behind the PCMCIA/Cardbus interface,
there is a PCMCIA and Cardbus interface is there not?

PCMCIA is just an abbreviation for "The Personal Computer Memory Card International Association" Which is a standards body, that defines and promotes the PC Card (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PC_Card) (formerly known as "PCMCIA card") and ExpressCard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ExpressCard) standards.

and for more:
A standards organization, standards body, standards development organization or SDO is any entity whose primary activities are developing, coordinating, promulgating, revising, amending, reissuing, interpreting, or otherwise maintaining standards (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard) that address the interests of a wide base of users outside the standards development organization.

What is PCMCIA?

PCMCIA (Personal Computer Memory Card International Association) is an international standards body and trade association with over 100 member companies that was founded in 1989 to establish standards for Integrated Circuit cards and to promote interchangeability among mobile computers where ruggedness, low power, and small size were critical. As the needs of mobile computer users has changed, so has PCMCIA. By 1991, PCMCIA had defined an I/O interface for the same 68 pin connector initially used for memory cards. At the same time, the Socket Services Specification was added and was soon followed by the Card Services Specifcation as developers realized that common software would be needed to enhance compatibility. Later, PCMCIA realized the need for higher speed applications such as multimedia and high-speed networking. From this realization came the CardBus 32-bit interface and Zoomed Video Specifications which allow blazing speed in such applications as MPEG video and 100 Mbit Ethernet. Along with these speed enhancements, PCMCIA continued to add to its specification to enhance compatibility and allow for such other mobile-oriented concerns as 3.3V operation and Power Management.

Never realised that each card requires drivers to be written at great time and expense?

Of course I did, but that is irrelevant to me and more of a concern for those developing it. Besides, you, yourself are supportive of the idea of adding a PCMCIA slot. So whats this all matter?

Why not? If you're going to suggest something as an idea you research it a little bit, just a few minutes would have been enough.

Because it's a generalized comment, I think that's obvious.
Who said I had to research something to make a suggestion?


Dont take it personally, it's just me.

I really don't

[DarkSky]

Do you remember what it cost? Why do you think they are so rare today?

Edit: I think they were $399 RRP in 1994 (about $710 todays money)

Yeap, Im just speaking non technical... in wish like fashion, jk.

Seriously tho, yes your right the cost is exuberant. It kind of pisses me off. With all the power the CD32 has going for it, some of those games have decent video going on. That they couldnt economically built a way for it to play decent video.
What would it take software wise to get that function? Decoding a codec through embeded firmware in a drive, software player... eh forget it. Ill go off on a tangent again.

[alexh]

Besides, you, yourself are supportive of the idea of adding a PCMCIA slot. So whats this all matter?
A600 and A1200 have a 16-bit PC-Card slot and thus a CD32 expansion could replicate this and inherit all existing driver software. Plus the PIO nature of 16-bit PC-card makes it very easy to do with very little hardware (which is why they added it to Amiga no doubt) whereas Cardbus is not.

Who said I had to research something to make a suggestion?
You have to research something before it goes from "wish list" status to "practical idea" ;)

[DarkSky]

A600 and A1200 have a 16-bit PC-Card slot and thus a CD32 expansion could replicate this and inherit all existing driver software. Plus the PIO nature of 16-bit PC-card makes it very easy to do with very little hardware (which is why they added it to Amiga no doubt) whereas Cardbus is not.

That makes sense, if you remember I said I was speaking for the PCMCIA slot technology in general. It really doesn't matter to me if it was cardbus or not. A a slot like that is really a boon for CD32 owners. The only problem will be for people to find working drivers for the cards they buy/obtain.

You have to research something before it goes from "wish list" status to "practical idea" ;)

I call these ideas, brainstorming. Without that first idea, you have nothing to research. It doesn't matter if an idea is practical or not, it's still an idea.
Once it's out there, then we can research the hell out of it to see if it's practical.

In any case, whomever makes this expansion is going to need to know how many people would actually purchase. Like taking pre orders. Decent way to get funding and lock in how many units to build.

I personally would like to know what people want to use their CD32's for? That could help determine what other things may be worth adding.

[alexh]

FYI the company selling the MCA182 parts through Digikey part no. 302-182-520-201 did not have any. I tried to order some and today were told they aint got non :(

Digikey now have 2 other sources listed

Sullins Computer parts (http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?name=S09119-578-ND) = $16.38 with MOQ of 1, only 10 units though!

Tyco Electronics Amp (http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?name=650092-1-ND) = $4.30 but an MOQ of 1000

[DyLucke]

Rats!

It clearly looks like we are not going to make it with the MC182...

However i've got an idea that will probably sound stupid, or absolutely not new...
But as long as i'm new around, no worries.

alexh is there any kind of chance to plug a device to the Akiko chip that AFAIK controls the CDrom Drive in the way of the indivision is? I mean with that kind of inverted socket that plugs directly to the chip mounting over it, so it could be possible to have the built-in IDE controller working with a CF card. Or the same technique to plug on the actual ram modules double sized ram chips?

As i said it could sound stupid, but if this indivision works and some console chips work with the same technique why not in this case?

Cheers

[alexh]

The clip would be at least as expensive as the MCA connector. Plus is the CD32 CD-ROM actually IDE?

[FOL]

Plus is the CD32 CD-ROM actually IDE?

I would say no, its not.

[jabsy]

I would say no, its not.

From my understanding it's one of those proprietary Panasonic interfaces. I used to have stacks of those drives, remember back in the days when a 2x CDROM was the ducks guts???? They used to be bolted to just about very 16-bit soundcard...

[Toni Wilen]

From my understanding it's one of those proprietary Panasonic interfaces. I used to have stacks of those drives, remember back in the days when a 2x CDROM was the ducks guts???? They used to be bolted to just about very 16-bit soundcard...

CDTV CDROM is really early Panasonic (Matsushita) -style interface, sound card interfaces used newer protocol (no protocol listed in Linux sources match CDTV protocol, similar but not close enough)

CD32 CDROM is custom, there is mysterious CBM365303-01 chip on controller board.. (MN187164NCC1 which seems to be some microcontroller type with custom code) Main CDROM controller is standard Sony CXD2500BQ but all host/controller IO is handled by that micro.

[taunusanden]

I like the idea of more fast ram, then it would be possible to make a cd with whdload and some games.

[alexh]

It's already possible to do that, but Fast RAM would enable more slaves to work.

4MB Fast RAM would be very cheap to make and almost every CD32 owner who is still an Amiga enthusiast would want one.

It's just a shame about the MOQ for the connectors which makes it impossible.

[taunusanden]

Is there, somewhere on the net, a DIY solution for makeing your own CD32 ram expansion? :-)

[FOL]

CDTV CDROM is really early Panasonic (Matsushita) -style interface, sound card interfaces used newer protocol (no protocol listed in Linux sources match CDTV protocol, similar but not close enough)

CD32 CDROM is custom, there is mysterious CBM365303-01 chip on controller board.. (MN187164NCC1 which seems to be some microcontroller type with custom code) Main CDROM controller is standard Sony CXD2500BQ but all host/controller IO is handled by that micro.


Indeed, Although I work on SONY hifi's. They used to use them cd mech's all the time. Always with a Mech servo control IC and in turn the main micro would control that.

Its a shame alot of Amiga stuff is undocumented. I would have thought the original design team would have given info on all that stuff over the years.

[Charlie]

It's already possible to do that, but Fast RAM would enable more slaves to work.

4MB Fast RAM would be very cheap to make and almost every CD32 owner who is still an Amiga enthusiast would want one.

It's just a shame about the MOQ for the connectors which makes it impossible.

I'd be @ the head of the que if such an upgrade were to materialise. Not likely I suppose. :sad

[alexh]

Not unless I could get the MOQ around the 250-300 mark.

I'd be happy to write some tutorials about how to convert 68k bus cycles into DRAM cycles if someone wanted to make their own CPLD.

But to be honest you can read about it almost everywhere on the net. A M68k DRAM card is 1st year electronics course bread and butter.

[Charlie]

You know alexh that's a really tempting line of thought. As always it comes down to time...

[jabsy]

Not unless I could get the MOQ around the 250-300 mark.

Whats that equate to in coin???

[Hurrah Brother]

Has this project stalled?

Additional ram and a flash drive for my CD32 would very much interest me.

Was it worked out if the analogic floppy drive was a vaiable mount for exapnsionS other that the clock port?

[alexh]

Stalled? It was never a reality. Even less so now with the launch of the Indivision 4000D which fits in the CD32.

There are just not enough CD32 owners in general and fewer who want to put their hand deep in their pocket.

[nujack]

@Alexh: That's not true. I would buy such a solution to spend more FastRam my CD32. ;)
I will also buy the scandoubler, when he is available ...

[alexh]

I didn't say there were non I said there weren't enough.

[Hurrah Brother]

'tis a pity :sad but that is reality for you.

[alexh]

If someone suddenly won the lottery and decided to re-make several Amiga addons at cost (or a small loss) then I'd help out. But until that happens you'll have to dream :)

[cosmicfrog]

must buy a lottery ticket this week then ................ hehehehehhehe

[TheCorfiot]

If someone suddenly won the lottery and decided to re-make several Amiga addons at cost (or a small loss) then I'd help out. But until that happens you'll have to dream :)

:laughing:laughing:laughing PMSL

Well that's one very good use for a lottery win.

TC :D

[alexh]

Or perhaps if someone applies for lottery funding to start a not-for-profit historical computer society which recycles antique computers and sells them at cost to troubled children (under the age of 40).

[rkauer]

@Alexh: Why not for children under the age of 50? I found your remark discriminative! :mad

Oh, and please, sell those ancient computer gears just for a nominal fee. :cheese

[Hurrah Brother]

If someone suddenly won the lottery and decided to re-make several Amiga addons at cost (or a small loss) then I'd help out. But until that happens you'll have to dream :)

Love to help, just won myself, can't see £10 going far though!;)

[stephenstaley]

any cd32 expansion projects i will buy atleast 10-20 units... maybe more possibly even part fund, get in touch if interested, cheers.

[PJM]

Have a look on A1K.org. Someone is developing such an expansion and its internal like the SX32.

[imigger]

yeah that new cd32 expansion looks awesome ill defo buy 1.

[Akira]

Have a look on A1K.org. Someone is developing such an expansion and its internal like the SX32.

Is it this one?
http://www.a1k.org/forum/showthread.php?t=32822

Anybody want to translate to english? IS it really going to be made and how much would it cost?

[kipper2k]

google chrome does a pretty decent job of translating

[Akira]

Try as I might, I found no PRICE information on that page. Also, how did this person solve the edge connector issue Jens said was not worth the effort unless something like 300 people expressed interest??

[moijk]

google chrome does a pretty decent job of translating

First reply was translated to this:

"Horny! That would please my CD32 in any case, very good ... http://www.a1k.org/forum/images/smilies/images/smilies/01.gif"


Well, it at least adds a comedy aspect.

[nittamituaki]

wow...If I could buy this, I will become madness...

[Akira]

Yeah I am a bit worried to not have the information because I feel I will be left out of buying this. That would make me extremely sad :(

[PJM]

Akira re-read the thread. The board is in development and if fully released could well be a DIY kit like the majority of A1k.org projects. Often on A1k.org a small number are produced to test the concept which will often go to those involved or contributing to the project.

If a board is released you'll almost certainly find it discussed here and every other Amiga site going.

[alexh]

how did this person solve the edge connector issue Jens said was not worth the effort unless something like 300 people expressed interest??
He probably did what I did and write to Adamtech and ask for samples. They sent me 4 for free :)

I hope that he open-sources his design files.

[imigger]

He probably did what I did and write to Adamtech and ask for samples. They sent me 4 for free :)

I hope that he open-sources his design files.

so your saying you have 4 of these cd32 upgrades in your possession ,:sad

wheres mine lol.

[Akira]

Akira re-read the thread. The board is in development and if fully released could well be a DIY kit like the majority of A1k.org projects. Often on A1k.org a small number are produced to test the concept which will often go to those involved or contributing to the project.

If a board is released you'll almost certainly find it discussed here and every other Amiga site going.

I can't re-read the thread because I don't read german, and translator output is garbage for me.

Well I do hope so, and I hope I an also have the ability to build such a kit.
I stil wonder how we get those connectors, as I doubt this person will give 4 free samples to everybody...
What is the exact name of this connector?

[PJM]

so your saying you have 4 of these cd32 upgrades in your possession ,:sad

wheres mine lol.

No he says he has four connectors - not boards.

[PJM]

He probably did what I did and write to Adamtech and ask for samples. They sent me 4 for free :)

I hope that he open-sources his design files.

Where on the site is the connector? I cannot find it at the moment.

[imigger]

ohh i was getting excited for a min ,i must learn to read lmao./.

[alexh]

Where on the site is the connector? I cannot find it at the moment.
http://www.adam-tech.com/catalog/2012/page_178-179.pdf

HMCA-A-182

[PJM]

http://www.adam-tech.com/catalog/2012/page_178-179.pdf

HMCA-A-182

;)

[kipper2k]

you know that if it becomes available i would definately try to produce these, i have a CD32 at home that feels left out of everything :)

[kipper2k]

He probably did what I did and write to Adamtech and ask for samples. They sent me 4 for free :)

I hope that he open-sources his design files.

Did the connector they sent you fit or did you need to modify it ? It looks to me that the divider in their connector is in a different location than that of the CD32 so some signals could be lost (if needed)

edit... looking at the specs, it looks like the divider for the 182pin version is central, do you have a pic of the connector Alexh ?

http://www.hardwarebook.info/CD32_Expansion-port

[PJM]

Interesting, that page also states its an MCA connector.

[Cammy]

I liked this idea for a CD32 expansion because it seems more logical for a low-cost expansion to have the RAM onboard rather than in a SIMM, it leaves off unnecessary ports like floppy drive because we have WHDLoad these days, allows for further expansion thanks to the Clockport, and would be small enough to fit inside the CD32 and replace the trapdoor.

http://www.amiga.org/gallery/images/2061/1_Redback-CD32-Expansion.png

[Akira]

At this point I'll welcome whatever development we have in this field, as the CD32 really needs a simple expansion like this that provides some extra RAM and an IDE interface and nothing else.

Rebel's idea is neat but, unfortunately, just an idea.