WHDLoad, One-on-One, WinUAE, and running too fast

[rlcarr]

I'm running WinUAE 1.4.6 using the ClassicWB FULL hardfile, upgraded to WB 3.1 and using a 3.1 ROM (from Amiga Forever). (Which reminds me -- THANK YOU, ClassicWB guys!!).

I wanted to try playing one of my favorite games, "Dr J. vs Larry Bird One-on-One" under emulation, so I grabbed the relevant KG pack and put the One-on-One game in place in the emulation environment.

When I clicked on the icon, I got the WHDLoad nag screen (this is my first time ever using WHDLoad, so I haven't registered it yet -- but I will soon) and then the game started. However, it played way, way too fast. I thought that WHDLoad and the slaves are supposed to correct for too-fast CPUs and play the game at the appropriate speed. Am I mistaken about that?

Is the too-fast play I'm seeing because I'm running in WinUAE as opposed to a real Amiga? Because I haven't registered WHDLoad? Because the emulation configuration I'm using is too "powerful" (i'm using ClassicWB.uae)? Or is it something about this specific game and it would run too fast under WHDLoad even on a real Amiga?

I searched here for One-on-One and read the WHDLoad docs over at the WHDLoad site and didn't come across anything bearing on the problem.

[Retro-Nerd]

Try to disable the "JIT" (in CPU and FPU) after you started One-on-One. Or try "Match A500 Speed".

[rlcarr]

I tried all of those and it still ran too fast. But thanks for the suggestion! If it's something about the game, so be it. But I still am curious as to whether or not WHDLoad/slaves try to "slow a game down" appropriately. Or if this is only an issue under an emulator and not on a real Amiga.

[Graham Humphrey]

Have you tried setting the "nocache" tooltype? Might be worth a go.

[rlcarr]

Have you tried setting the "nocache" tooltype? Might be worth a go.

I tried it. No luck :(. So perhaps it's something about the game? Like using timing loops instead of calling ROM Wait() routines?

[laser]

one on one doesn't works fine on winuae if you use whdload..it runs out of sync
play the game on winuae from floopy (adf) using the basic A500 config
and remember you need kick 1.2 cause it not works on kick 1.3

[Minuous]

Most WHDLoad games exhibit this behaviour.

You need to set to A500 speed and also do cycle-exact blitter emulation, IIRC.

As to why the slaves don't handle this, I'm not sure. It wouldn't take a lot of testing to reveal such bugs, so the slave authors must be aware of the issue, maybe they are all using stock A500s?

[rlcarr]

Most WHDLoad games exhibit this behaviour.

Does this behavior also happen with WHDLoad games running on actual Amiga hardware, when the processor is a 68020 or higher? Can you get around it with a degrader program, or does that interfere with WHDLoad?

[Graham Humphrey]

Does this behavior also happen with WHDLoad games running on actual Amiga hardware, when the processor is a 68020 or higher?

This very rarely happens... I use an '040 processor and it does happen on occasion but setting a tooltype like "nocache" generally does the trick.

Not sure how common it is in WinUAE (I assume Minuous' comment was referring to that), I've only tried a few games but they seem to work okay. Have you tried some other games to see how they run?

[rlcarr]

This very rarely happens...
Ah! That's good to know,

Not sure how common it is in WinUAE (I assume Minuous' comment was referring to that), I've only tried a few games but they seem to work okay. Have you tried some other games to see how they run?Since my last post I tried Wayne Gretzky Hockey 2 (from a KG pack) and it appeared to run at normal speed. So it looks like it's something specifically about O-o-O.

This now actually brings back some memories. I vaguely recall that way way back when I still had 1.3 on my A2000, when I put an A2620 in it, the game would play fast in a similar way -- things would be too fast, and the places in the game where you'd get a voice (the ref's announcements, the whining from the dude sweeping up the broken backboard), you didn't get a voice.

I should try to find an A2000 kickstart ROM file, so I can try a 3.1 emulation environment doing 68000 emulation (The 3.1 ROMs in Amiga Forever are A4000 ROMs, and when I try to force the emulation down to 68000, I am told it requires at least a 68020. I assume that with 3.1 A2000 ROMs I can run as a 68000, since an actual unaccellerated A2000 could run 3.1, as I recall).

[Ironclaw]

Bah, just use the CPU slider, the further to the left, the slower the emulation is, move it till the speed fits your needs.

Also, have you tried Cycle-exact?, that is important for quite alot of games, they run too fast or too slow, check that one and it could run in normal speed.

[rlcarr]

Also, have you tried Cycle-exact?, that is important for quite alot of games, they run too fast or too slow, check that one and it could run in normal speed.

Aha! That did the trick. Well, Cycle-Exact plus disabling JIT together did the trick. (The NoCache tooltype on the O-o-O icon isn't needed).

To sum it all up, to have "Dr J. vs. Larry Bird One on One" run correctly under WHDLoad (with WinUAE 1.4.6 and ClassicWB Full, anyways), I ultimately did:
(1) Load the ClassicWB.uae configuration.
(2) On the CPU page, untick the JIT box. (note that I didn't need to pick the A500 mode on the CPU page).
(3) On the Chipset page, tick the Cycle-Exact box.
(4) Hit Start and enjoy the game.

[Graham Humphrey]

Glad you got it sorted :)

[Ironclaw]

Aha! That did the trick. Well, Cycle-Exact plus disabling JIT together did the trick. (The NoCache tooltype on the O-o-O icon isn't needed).

To sum it all up, to have "Dr J. vs. Larry Bird One on One" run correctly under WHDLoad (with WinUAE 1.4.6 and ClassicWB Full, anyways), I ultimately did:
(1) Load the ClassicWB.uae configuration.
(2) On the CPU page, untick the JIT box. (note that I didn't need to pick the A500 mode on the CPU page).
(3) On the Chipset page, tick the Cycle-Exact box.
(4) Hit Start and enjoy the game.

I never ever use JIT.... only done it a couple times as there were no other way (those two times) durng the years of using WinUAE, because it seems to cause too many problems.

[Retro-Nerd]

I never ever use JIT.... only done it a couple times as there were no other way (those two times) durng the years of using WinUAE, because it seems to cause too many problems.

You use disk images only, right? You NEED JIT for any emulated AmigaOS, or it's unusable slow.

full game compatibilty + fast emulated Amiga = NOOOO WAY!!! ;)

But Gamebase Amiga+WHDLoad fixes the dilemma. :)

[Ironclaw]

You use disk images only, right? You NEED JIT for any emulated AmigaOS, or it's unusable slow.

full game compatibilty + fast emulated Amiga = NOOOO WAY!!! ;)

Well, one of the times I used JIT was for a 3D game, but when recording I got sound delay and the game was running so slow when recording even though it didn't require much of my computer, a bug I think.

Second time was for some big workbench thingy, like Amikit, to play videos etc.... other than that "Fastest possible" or "Adjustable between cpu" does the trick and are stable, no need for JIT in almost anything imo. Many people use it as they know no other way to get speed cuz they don't know about stuff like having 32 bit color mode on, or having cycle-exact off etc.... I'm not 100% sure as it was a while ago, put I played species and AB3DII super smooth (check my recording at RAG) without JIT.

So, I blame slowdowns without JIT to be users lack of experience with WinUAE :).

Whdload doesn't give speed increase, only loading speed increase.

[Retro-Nerd]

Bah, that's rubbish IC. Of course you need JIT for CWB, AmiKit etc or it way too slow. Not the games, but the OS operating.

Gamebase Amiga+WHDLoad obsoletes the use of an AmigaOS, it uses WHDRun to start the games. So there is no need for JIT in emulation.

[Ironclaw]

Bah, that's rubbish IC. Of course you need JIT for CWB, AmiKit etc or it way too slow. Not the games, but the OS operating.

Uhm, if you read my post again I said I DID need JIT for bigger OS stuff, like AmiKit.

Gamebase Amiga+WHDLoad obsoletes the use of an AmigaOS, it uses WHDRun to start the games. So there is no need for JIT in emulation.
Don't quite follow you.. uhm, you say that without GB Amiga+WHDLoad an OS is required? and JIT?. Well, I don't use WHDLoad, but when I did (tried it once), I play the games without JIT. Like I said, no need for JIT in anything except some heavy workbench thingies (OS stuff, like AmiKit)...

[Retro-Nerd]

Don't quite follow you.. uhm, you say that without GB Amiga+WHDLoad an OS is required? and JIT?. Well, I don't use WHDLoad, but when I did (tried it once), I play the games without JIT. Like I said, no need for JIT in anything except some heavy workbench thingies (OS stuff, like AmiKit)...

As i said before, the OS operating is annoying slow without JIT. You need no JIT if you want to start games in commandline mode (without an OS).

But then you can use Gamebase Amiga+KGWD packs, it's the same but more comfortable.

[Ironclaw]

As i said before, the OS operating is annoying slow without JIT. You need no JIT if you want to start games in commandline mode (without an OS).

But then you can use Gamebase Amiga+KGWD packs, it's the same but more comfortable.

Bah, playing games through OS is not an option for me, clicking icons or typing stuff.....

Never used Gamebase Amiga (front end, no?), as it's better for me with winuae, more control I think (don't know what gamebase offers). WHDLoad is good for people who want to play games from harddrive to run faster, I mainly play adventure games and put them in RAD instead for equal fast loading speed with the bonus of using savestates aswell.

[Hungry Horace]

Whdload doesn't give speed increase, only loading speed increase.

try something like Stunt Car Racer, where the speed increase is allowed to be pushed into extra smoothness, and you will find you are wrong ;)

[Ironclaw]

try something like Stunt Car Racer, where the speed increase is allowed to be pushed into extra smoothness, and you will find you are wrong ;)

So SCR gives fps increase with whdload compared to using floppy?. Well, rare I think and maybe only that game + a very few others that get a speed increase from whdload, or maybe the speed increase you are talking about is a mere 1-5fps, that's nothing then :). I can play SCR smooth/faster with some changes in WinUAE instead and using floppy :).

[Retro-Nerd]

WHDLoad is good for people who want to play games from harddrive to run faster, I mainly play adventure games and put them in RAD instead for equal fast loading speed with the bonus of using savestates aswell.

WHDLoad offers much more than faster loading times. It makes older games compatible on all Amiga machines, you have selectable cheats, highscore saver, second button support etc. ;)

[Ironclaw]

WHDLoad offers much more than faster loading times. It makes older games compatible on all Amiga machines, you have selectable cheats, highscore saver etc. ;)

I know, and some games have bugs fixes that aren't fixed in floppy versions. but as I use WinUAE, Amiga machine compability is no problem for me :), I just select the machine I want so all games works :).

[Retro-Nerd]

There are too much AGA/OCS chipset bugs (or not implemented features) left, so i prefer my real A1200 for gaming and WinUAE for tranfering and testing stuff. :)

[Ironclaw]

There are too much AGA/OCS chipset bugs left, so i prefer my real A1200 for gaming and WinUAE for tranfering and testing stuff. :)

I can't find any bugs in the games I play :), not even if I tried, only a small handfull of games have these bugs that it doesn't make up for it to use the real thing.

So, you rather use the real thing without savestates, all systems built-in, faster loading times, more harddrive space and memory than you could ever need for an amiga, audio/video recorder, 4 floppy drives etc etc etc-................................. than WinUAE that has everything, BUT could if you tried really really hard have some AGA/OCS bugs in very very few games???? :confused

:laughing:laughing:laughing:laughing:laughing:laughing:laughing

Or maybe your are unlucky that those few games that has some bugs are the ONLY ones you like to play? ;).

[Hungry Horace]

So SCR gives fps increase with whdload compared to using floppy?. Well, rare I think and maybe only that game + a very few others that get a speed increase from whdload, or maybe the speed increase you are talking about is a mere 1-5fps, that's nothing then :). I can play SCR smooth/faster with some changes in WinUAE instead and using floppy :).

i'd love to know what Codetapper and Galahad would make of your 'made up' figures, since you are trying to claim it is pointless, even though i doubt you have tried it.

you will find you get it far smoother with their excellent patches AND the use of the extra speed options offered by WinUAE, and you will by adamantly sticking to the disk version.

"some games" have bugfixes IC? lol... i'd like to see any that didnt have some kind of fixing - even if you cant see it.


p.s. - the savestate arguement is BS, since you can save-state a whdload game in RAD: too if you want.

[Retro-Nerd]

I would find more than a handful bugs for sure (no matter if OCS/AGA games), but i'm too lazy to check them all. :laughing ;)

But of course i enjoy WinUAE to bits too, no doubt. Amiga emulation isn't trivial, compared to C64 or Mega Drive emulators. Toni did a brilliant job so far. :)

[Ironclaw]

i'd love to know what Codetapper and Galahad would make of your 'made up' figures, since you are trying to claim it is pointless, even though i doubt you have tried it.
I havn't said WHDLoad is pointless, it's ´very good for real Amigas.
you will find you get it far smoother with their excellent patches AND the use of the extra speed options offered by WinUAE, and you will by adamantly sticking to the disk version.
I said I didn't know how much speed increase the games get, so I just figured it could be like 1-5fps or something, NOT saying IT IS. And if WHDLoad isn't used with WinUAE, those "extra" speed options are not an option (winuae ftw!).
"some games" have bugfixes IC? lol... i'd like to see any that didnt have some kind of fixing - even if you cant see it.
Well, I phrased that wrong then I guess, by "some games" getting bugfixes I mean bugs making the game NOT run, or crash sometimes, or give graphical errors.. I don't mean fixes in general like trainers, speed tweaks etc.

p.s. - the savestate arguement is BS, since you can save-state a whdload game in RAD: too if you want.

Yup, I know, but not on a real amiga ;).

[Hungry Horace]

i'm not gonna bother. you're not reading it right, and seem to be getting a few things clearly wrong - just for starters, I was talking about using WHDLoad on anything, winuae included, rather than your adamant 'disk' approach. and it was the SCR patch you called pointless that i was responding to.

[Ironclaw]

i'm not gonna bother. you're not reading it right, and seem to be getting a few things clearly wrong

and it was the SCR patch you called pointless that i was responding to.
Again, I didn't call ANYTHING pointless. Who's the one not reading it right? ;).


-------------------------------
Come on, more posts please!

Bring it on bitches! :crazy

I love these arguments :evilgrin.

[Hungry Horace]

Again, I didn't call ANYTHING pointless.

I can play SCR smooth/faster with some changes in WinUAE instead and using floppy

same difference.

[Ironclaw]

I can play SCR smooth/faster with some changes in WinUAE instead and using floppy


By that I of course meant using whdload for more speed is not necessary when you can set any speed you want in winuae. That doesn't make whdload pointless, it's good for real amigas.

[Hungry Horace]

you can have some replies when you've gone back and read my posts correctly.

[Ironclaw]

you can have some replies when you've gone back and read my posts correctly.

I wouldn't understand them more if I read them more times.

[Toni Wilen]

There are too much AGA/OCS chipset bugs (or not implemented features) left, so i prefer my real A1200 for gaming and WinUAE for tranfering and testing stuff. :)

Show me one bug or non-implemented feature.




I thought so...

[Minuous]

Toni, you've been shown such bugs already, with examples to replicate the problem, and have not bothered to fix them, eg. the audio bug. Is it any wonder that others are not going to bother to be specific about the bugs?

Re. unimplemented features, the Caps Lock light is not even supported properly.

[Toni Wilen]

Toni, you've been shown such bugs already, with examples to replicate the problem, and have not bothered to fix them, eg. the audio bug. Is it any wonder that others are not going to bother to be specific about the bugs?

Re. unimplemented features, the Caps Lock light is not even supported properly.

I ignore "bug reports" that include attitude problems. (=just do not bother to report anything anymore, thanks, I either ignore it or reply something annoying. Check your posting history here and other Amiga forums.)

Before this gets too out of topic, edit number 2:

- audio problem you "reported" has already been fixed. Or there is another one left somewhere.
- controlling keyboard leds is not officially supported and depends on too many variables. (keyboard type, windows version etc..) and it conflicts badly when user needs to press caps lock key and led needs to be toggled programmatically. (not necessarily simulataneously) Not worth the trouble.

[Minuous]

ignore "bug reports" that include attitude problems.

This seems a silly basis on which to make technical decisions. It shouldn't matter if it was Mehdi Ali himself that reported it. IIRC my original bug report was quite unemotional and was based on technical issues, I even went to the trouble of writing for you a new program specifically to demonstrate and isolate the issue. Your annoyance at me seems to stem from my annoyance at you that you confirm and then deny the existence of such bugs. (I don't actually care whether you fix it or not, the new version wouldn't run on my setup anyway.) But the point is that you are now claiming that there are no bugs when clearly there are.

audio problem you "reported" has already been fixed. Or there is another one left somewhere.

No, I just retested and the bug is still there.

controlling keyboard leds is not officially supported

This is odd, Word and Excel both do this and they are Microsoft products.

[Marcuz]

this thread is completely OT since post 12...

[Retro-Nerd]

Show me one bug or non-implemented feature.




I thought so...

Why? You know the famous ones like this (posted several times), right? ;)

http://www.abload.de/thumb/disposablehero_disk1nik.png (http://www.abload.de/image.php?img=disposablehero_disk1nik.png)

[dlfrsilver]

You're right here Retro nerd ;)

[Bloodwych]

Aha! That did the trick. Well, Cycle-Exact plus disabling JIT together did the trick. (The NoCache tooltype on the O-o-O icon isn't needed).

To sum it all up, to have "Dr J. vs. Larry Bird One on One" run correctly under WHDLoad (with WinUAE 1.4.6 and ClassicWB Full, anyways), I ultimately did:
(1) Load the ClassicWB.uae configuration.
(2) On the CPU page, untick the JIT box. (note that I didn't need to pick the A500 mode on the CPU page).
(3) On the Chipset page, tick the Cycle-Exact box.
(4) Hit Start and enjoy the game.

Glad you found a solution. It is actually mentioned in the ClassicWB FAQ:

http://classicwb.abime.net/classicweb/faq.htm


Bah, that's rubbish IC. Of course you need JIT for CWB, AmiKit etc or it way too slow. Not the games, but the OS operating.

Gamebase Amiga+WHDLoad obsoletes the use of an AmigaOS, it uses WHDRun to start the games. So there is no need for JIT in emulation.

Nah, a modern PC is perfectly capable of running the ClassicWB packs without JIT. The FULL is lightening fast on my PC without JIT and the P96 version is perfectly usable (on a old 2Ghz Athlon XP). Workbench emulation without JIT is more comparable and compatible to a real Amiga experience so I actually use non-JIT configs quite often as it feels more like a genuine accelerated A1200.

I'm sure WHDload can be configured via tool types to disable JIT and set other WinUAE options when launching a game now can't it, so I guess it's all kind of a mute point if you use JIT or not for Workbench? Or have I been smoking too much again! :laughing

Gamebase Amiga is great, but I like emulating as close to the real thing for nostalgia reasons so that includes going through Workbench for gaming. Call me a traditionalist!

I have to admit, Gamebase is great for when you want to fire up some quick games when friends come round or running on a frontend driven dedicated retro pc.

[Retro-Nerd]

Nah, a modern PC is perfectly capable of running the ClassicWB packs without JIT. The FULL is lightening fast on my PC without JIT and the P96 version is perfectly usable (on a old 2Ghz Athlon XP). Workbench emulation without JIT is more comparable and compatible to a real Amiga experience so I actually use non-JIT configs quite often as it feels more like a genuine accelerated A1200.

It works for CWB Lite here, when you switch to "Adjustable between CPU and chipset". No chance for AmiKit or AmiSys, it needs JIT for a reasonable speed. ;)



I'm sure WHDload can be configured via tool types to disable JIT and set other WinUAE options when launching a game now can't it, so I guess it's all kind of a mute point if you use JIT or not for Workbench? Or have I been smoking too much again! :laughing

Of course you can, but will you configure the whole KGWHD packs for me?

:laughing ;)

[Bloodwych]

Yeah, the eye candy packs require the extra power for a nice experience, but I'd be interested to see how fast a modern CPU can emulate an Amiga without JIT. Like I said, all my packs are fine without JIT on an old CPU - after all most were built with an 020 14Mhz in mind. It's only the hogging tasks like MP3 playback that's going to bring them to their knees.

As for the tooltypes you have a point, I guess that's why I've never bothered. :laughing It woundn't be that bad if you just did it on an as-need basis though. No need to do them all at once - pace yourself! :lol

We need a Workbench tool to set tooltypes. Perhaps there is one on Aminet?

[Retro-Nerd]

We need a Workbench tool to set tooltypes. Perhaps there is one on Aminet?

Yep, such a tool would be awesome. :great

[Ironclaw]

http://www.grapheine.com/bombaytv/index.php?module=see&lang=uk&code=fa8ea14bad3859877d64bfd9ba74ad85