Nokia is new Amiga partner [Archive]

Korodny

28 February 2002, 02:32

I know I'm looking much like a notorius BAF (blind Amiga follower), but I can't resist :)

>> But one thing is obvious. If there is indeed a new Amiga, 3rd party support will be sparse
>> indeed.

There *are* small(ish) companies searching for alternative markets apart from Windows, as
competing on that system becomes increasingly harder every day.

Of course we will not have a booming software market in three months from now on. But the Amiga
desktop market is a commercial market - Amiga users are willing to pay for software (some of
them, sometimes :). Linux users aren't, that's why there's practically no commercial software
available for them. Sales figures for games ported from Windows are actually *higher* on AmigaOS
than on Linux.

Want examples (small companies offering Amiga versions)?

- Pagestream / Grasshoppers LLC (Windows/Mac/Amiga)
- Papyrus / ROM-Logicware (Windows/AtariST (!)/Mac (soon)/Amiga (soon))
- Realsoft 3D / Realsoft (Windows/Mac/Amiga (soon))
- Motionstudio / Motionstudios (Windows/Amiga (soon))
- Prostation Audio (Windows/Amiga)

Porting Opera to the Amiga was already started. Got cancelled when Gateway "abandoned" AmigaOS
in favour of "AmigaOE".

>> Amigans would rely on good ol apps and PD apps to get thru, and a select few companies.
>> Thats a sad state of affairs,

Amigans don't have to rely on PD now, and they won't have to do in the near future. Basically,
the Amiga lacks a good up-to-date browser (a yet to be announced team is already preparing a port
of the Gecko engine), support for proprietary file formats (Sorensen, Flash, RealMedia, WMF -
that's a real problem that will hopefully get less of a problem if that DE thingie takes off) and
a decent Office suit (Papyrus is getting ported atm, another yet to be announced team works on
OpenOffice).

Fred the Fop

28 February 2002, 06:46

Well these are nice, but did ANYTHING you say contradict what I said? No. Sparse, by Windows and Mac standards, and even Linux standards. Linux is far more ubquitous now than Amiga OS. Look at any computer book store and that will show you. How many Winows, Mac and Linux and Unix books, manuals and the like are there? Tons. Amiga? I should say Its a sad state. Sparse.
Sparse.
Sparse.
Its an extremely tenuous thread , to depend on Amiga DE, and Flash and the like being made to run on an Amiga browser, if if if ifif..Blech.

utri007

28 February 2002, 10:49

No AmigaOne tech specks are not joke, or explain why??

Buss is 133mhz prosessor is 600mhz G3 (or what you want) and AGP-slot.

And talking about AmigaOS4.0?? It's impossible now, I haven't see it.

Will see :nervous

utri007

28 February 2002, 11:48

AmigaOne tech specs are quite same as The PowerMac G4
(Quicksilver 2002) bus speed, available cpus,,,,,

But The PowerMac G4 (Quicksilver 2002) is not LOW EDN Apple and Low end AmigaOne has G3 cpu. Check prices

Low end Apples like iMac has only 100mhz bus, so I ques AmigaOne more near Quiksilver 2002 than iMac

utri007

28 February 2002, 12:07

*AmigaOne

CPU speed concerns - G3/G4 to their current clocking limits

Memory speed concerns - 133MHz

Provision of integrated peripherals - 2xUSB (motherboard) + 2 more on headers; LAN; AC97; MC97; UDMA100

Provision of legacy peripherals (FDD/Serial/Parallel/kb/mouse) - On board

AGP speed - 2x

*iMac (Flat Panel)

CPU speed concerns - G3/G4 to their current clocking limits

Memory speed concerns -- 100 Mhz

Provision of integrated peripherals - 3xUSB

AGP speed - 2x

iMac prize is 1299$

AmigaOne price is (Just mother board + cpu) 500$ so you still have 800$ to get Nice tower+psu, display adapter, hard-drive, monitor, cd, floppy, keyboard, mouse,,,

Korodny

28 February 2002, 17:54

@Frederic:

>> Well these are nice, but did ANYTHING you say contradict what I said?

The part of your posting that caught my attention was "Amigans have to rely on PD".
That's simply not true.

>> No. Sparse, by Windows and Mac standards, and even Linux standards. Linux
>> is far more ubquitous now than Amiga OS. Look at any computer book store and
>> that will show you.

No need to discuss that. If I need assistance or want to buy Software/Hardware I simply
call/visit my preferred Amiga dealer.

>> Sparse.
>> Sparse.
>> Sparse.

Okay, that seems to be really important to you ;-) Let's agree on "sparse but not
too sparse"?

>> Its an extremely tenuous thread , to depend on Amiga DE, and Flash and the like
>> being made to run on an Amiga browser, if if if ifif..Blech

The only "if" in my posting was "if DE takes off". I don't understand your negative
attitude towards AmigaOS. There are people who want to continue using it, what's the
problem with that?

As Utri pointed out, the AmigaOne specs are far from being "a joke". I'd call Windows
(any version) a joke. MacOSX is one hell of a bloated piece of a *nix window manager
and Linux is a decent OS, but nothing I'd want to have running on a "home computer" /
desktop machine.

Fred the Fop

28 February 2002, 19:16

I have full respect for Amiga OS 4. I have done my research. But fact is: support from 3rd party will be VERY SPARSE, hence people in general computer buying public will not flock to the Amiga One, hence it will do poorly, and the cycle begins. qucik , putrid death. Or a slow, stagnant one.
My problem is with the HARDWARE, not the OS! Oh, and Utri..yes, those are pretty hardware specs..but this is my point..by the time Amiga One.. LOL...gets released, those specs will be outdated and passe'. Keep dreaming guys.
Hey, if any of youse want to buy an Amiga One..I got a bridge here in Brooklyn you'd might like to buy.
Geez. I ain't even going to bother.
Oh and if you are going to quote, get it right, Korod...You said I said this:
"Amigans have to rely on PD".
Now scroll down, read what I said, and eat crow.:laughing

Korodny

28 February 2002, 20:41

@Frederic:

>> I have full respect for Amiga OS 4. I have done my research. But fact is: support
>> from 3rd party will be VERY SPARSE, hence people in general computer buying public
>> will not flock to the Amiga One, hence it will do poorly, and the cycle begins.
>> qucik , putrid death. Or a slow, stagnant one.

The Amiga was doing fine until about 1996. The size of the community allowed commercial
developers to survive, there was a substantial number of Applications regularly updated.

Nobody says that the AmigaOne is aimed at the "general computer buying public". It's
aimed at current Amiga users and people who left the platform in the last few years.

The target is to establish a market that lets developers make a bit of money. *That's*
a fact. Claiming that it will fail to do so is just speculation.

>> My problem is with the HARDWARE, not the OS! Oh, and Utri..yes, those are pretty
>> hardware specs..but this is my point..by the time Amiga One.. LOL...gets released, those
>> specs will be outdated and passe'. Keep dreaming guys.

Now it gets funny. You *are* aware that there are other AmigaOne machines than the
one from Eyetech, aren't you ? Ask RetroMan for his favourite AmigaOne compatible machine..

>> Oh and if you are going to quote, get it right, Korod...You said I said this:
>> "Amigans have to rely on PD".
>> Now scroll down, read what I said, and eat crow

"Amigans would rely on good ol apps and PD apps". Still not true.

Fred the Fop

28 February 2002, 20:55

:sleep :sleep :sleep :sleep :sleep

APFelon

28 February 2002, 21:39

Originally posted by Korodny

The Amiga was doing fine until about 1996. The size of the community allowed commercial
developers to survive, there was a substantial number of Applications regularly updated.

Nobody says that the AmigaOne is aimed at the "general computer buying public". It's
aimed at current Amiga users and people who left the platform in the last few years.

The target is to establish a market that lets developers make a bit of money. *That's*
a fact. Claiming that it will fail to do so is just speculation.

Sure. Even the most obtuse individual would realize that a company manufactures products to make a profit. However, I take from your assertions that the AmigaOne is aimed at ex-Amigans and not intended for the mainstream? I find that a bit silly, but not surprising considering Amiga INC's recent conduct and foolish business philosophy.

Aiming for current Amiga users and those users who have left the fold over the last few years almost insures unprofitability. However, this is simply Amiga INC. (and their advocates) being consistant- Aim low.

I wish all current Amiga users the best, though. They all seem to be blissfully optomistic about Amiga INC. despite all of their broken promises and false claims.

Good luck.

Akira

28 February 2002, 22:32

Originally posted by APFelon

I wish all current Amiga users the best, though. They all seem to be blissfully optomistic about Amiga INC. despite all of their broken promises and false claims.

Not me. I think real _Amiga_ enthusiasts, have not paid attention to what Commodore/Amiga said since... let's say 1998.

IMO, real _Amiga_ freaks like the machine, not just a brand. It's about the machine the Amiga is, and what it means, not how it's called man! it could be called Bananas, I dont care. Amiga now is just a brand. I agree with miggy, they should let it rest, but NO, they won't... Why? Because of the BAFs (nice one Korodny :)) who would buy anything that says Amiga... Believe it or not, the brand sells, it's got a stable, VERY loyal bunch. That's why the Amiga brand stood time.

My 2,000,000 pence :D

Galahad/FLT

01 March 2002, 00:48

I have been following this thread, and my reply to it (or contribution) is my own feelings and I am not necessarily attempting to criticise others... so here goes.

Back in 1993-94 when the shit was really going down (when Escom didn't have damned clue what they were gonna do!), I alike many others felt the same, that the Amiga should not change, but evolve from its present form.

Today, my view could not be further removed from that viewpoint.

Some people have a very set view on how the Amiga should be, because they base it on past computer history.

I am not interested in history before C64:

First there was Sinclair Spectrum and Commodore 64... Atari and Amstrad had an attempt which ultimately failed.

From 8bit we went to 16bit, Atari ST and Commodore Amiga, blah, blah, you know the rest.

For nearly 15years, there is this notion that there HAS to be a truly affordable 'home' computer, and all of those machines fitted that perfectly in their time.

but unfortunately, the computing world has changed. Computer manufacturers cannot afford to produce their own graphics and sound hardware anymore, and more to the point, they don't have the resources to compete against the graphics hardware manufacturers that solely fabricate these devices.

Think long and hard now...... With the exception of the C64 and the Amiga, every other computer or console (maybe a very slight exception to half the hardware in the Atari 800XL) was bought off the shelf hardware.

Sega Megadrive, Sega Saturn, Sega Dreamcast, Sony Playstation, Sony Playstation 2, Super Nintendo, Nintendo 64, Nintendo Gamecube, Atari ST, etc, etc, etc........ its all bought in hardware manufactured by specific graphics/sound hardware companies.

the point? Amiga are doing the sensible thing..... they CANNOT compete with the likes of Matrox or Creative or any other hardware manufacturer........ and neither could Sega and look at the state of them now?

Sega didn't make ANY money selling consoles, they made money on the software, this is a FACT!

Sony lost money on the Playstation hardware for two years, because they made money on the software.... now you know why software companies had to pay exhorbitant prices for their licenses!!

In 1982, one of the biggest computer companies, one of the biggest companies in the world was IBM......... Microsoft was tiny in comparison.

Today in 2002, Microsoft dwarfs IBM. Microsoft is now in a good position to enter the hardware arena with the X-Box, and the brand name association with Microsoft won't do it any harm, despite peoples protestations about their software and bugs!

Amiga Inc is being VERY wise and VERY shrewd. The fact that AmigaOne is not quite as powerful as a Mac or a PC is TOTALLY irrelevant! The whole point about the AmigaDE is that it is far leaner than anything the PC or Mac currently 'enjoys', so in relativity, the power of the proposed AmigaONE is about right.

The other thing to remember, is if you don't like the hardware specs... like the PC and Mac, you can simply stick another card in there, and whilst this slightly goes against the grain of normal Amiga traditions (squeeze the most out of the hardware that you can), its necessary.

If this system gets off the ground and people get to prove their coding skills with AmigaDE, the same program written in AmigaDE that may also exist for PC and Mac will require far less resources that those versions to be of the same speed and functionality.

Does the PC and Mac owner have to be convinced to chuck away their hardware to see the benefits? No, they simply install the AmigaDE, ALONGSIDE Windows and MacOS and they can see for themselves.

Shit, its a lot harder to convince people to buy new hardware than it is to buy new software!!

Amiga coders for the most part relished getting as much from the hardware as they could, and their coding skills in getting a lot of action from a small amount of RAM is well documented. With these kind of programming traits, the AmigaDE will be less hassled, because the code will be leaner, far more optimised, you get the picture.

The Amiga OCS/ECS/AGA series of computers are fine computers and people are still getting great use out of them... but lets be honest, the very hardware that was such a revelation all those years ago is now holding the machine back!

40Mhz blitter was fast in 1985, but the same speed blitter in a faster A12oo with more bitplanes and colours....... thats just plain fucking stupid!!!!!

When the A12oo came out, 16bit soundcards with many more than 4 channels were the norm on the PC..... what did the A12oo get? SLightly cleaner sound and the ability to hear all the sound channels playing if one of the audio leads was pulled out!!!!!!!!

Don't get me wrong, I like the A12oo, people have got some amazing results out of it, but that was ten years ago when it first came out, people have done as much as they can with a base A12oo.

The concept of the 'home' computer has changed. The concept of a totally original machine has changed, most of the names that we all associated with being big, mighty, unstoppable, are either bust, dying or on the verge.

For those that knock the concept of the AmigaDE, look a little further, whilst it may sound a little trite right now, the world of computers is changing so fast, that software like the AmigaDE (or something like it!) will be the winners. The AmigaDE is not reliant on any one piece of hardware..... if Apple goes down, the AmigaDE is already written and working for other platforms..... if I decide to sell my iMac, I don't have to practically give away my entire software collection, because as long as I have AmigaDE and the software utilises AmigaDE, I can simply use it on my next hardware purchase.......

Your opinions are your own, and I felt exactly the same... times have changed, the concept of the computer has changed..... maybe its time some of you considered that change....... the only alternative to that is that by 2010, everything will be Microsoft!

Slightly more than 2 pence worth I think, your normal programming resumes after this small break!

APFelon

01 March 2002, 02:23

Korodny

01 March 2002, 05:23

@Galahad:

I would never dare to defend AmigaDE (i'd get flamed to death ;) but I guess you're
in the position to do so :D

That's exactly the way I see it too..

@APFelon:

>> Aiming for current Amiga users and those users who have left the fold over
>> the last few years almost insures unprofitability. However, this is simply
>> Amiga INC. (and their advocates) being consistant- Aim low.

No. It doesn't make sense to aim for the masses with "just another desktop
OS". BeOS/QNX tried that and failed. You can't compete in terms of hardware (as
Galahad pointed out), and most people think they actually *need* Windows nowadays.
And even if one of those who don't think so asks me why he should switch to
AmigaOS, what should I answer ?

"It's ressource efficient" ? -> he laughs and strokes his 300 GB HD, 80x DVD,
4 Ghz Wintel box

"it's completely modular, very easy to control and understand" ? -> "I'm no geek,
why should I care ?"

"it's real fun to code for it ?" -> see above

And then he asks me if there's a port of "DJMagixxxExtremeHipTrackerWannabe" available.

Well, you get the idea. Therefore, AmigaOS4 is aimed *only* at geeks, ex-users and the
like at the moment. There are developers, publishers, traders that need to make money,
a community that needs to survive. That's what OS4 is for - and it's still the same OS
I used (nearly) ten years ago to create professional Scala presentations for a friends
shop display, still the same SBase4 pro that another friend used to maintain his shop
inventory at that time. To me, the Amiga always was about more than "just" games.

The tool to conquer the mass market is AmigaDE, I think Galahad gave a pretty good
description why DE actually is such a good concept.

Galahad/FLT

01 March 2002, 20:26

Hrm. So it's like BMW getting out of the automobile business to refine gasoline, and still calling itself "BMW". Those people who were loyal to the brand will buy the gasoline simply because it is BMW and must be "good" in some way because it is manufactured by BMW.

Interesting analogy, but not quite getting the point.

The Amiga was a concept that worked. It worked because of a great many things, great design, good hardware, good programs, lean use of memory, good programmers.

The AmigaDE is continuing that concept with lean design but taking the Amiga idealogy further. The Amiga concept was always about getting the most out of the machine, can anyone say in all honesty that software companies get the most out of the PC? They simply don't, and they don't care to. Unless Joe Public starts to question why it is that the same programs for the AmigaDE take up a hell of a lot less resources than the PC/Mac equivalent, then that situation won't change.

Lets just ask some basic questions here that simply require a yes or no answer:

1). You are in business to write software and you have the choice to write in a language that is supported across many platforms and doesn't require major rethinks and rejigs to fit it into a mobile phone unlike the bloat that is C.

Would you consider a system like AmigaDE, YES/NO

2). If the same team could work on the same game instead of being split off to do seperate versions, thus making bugs less likely, gameplay better, game design better.

Would you consider a system like AmigaDE, YES/NO

3). You have bought over $10,000 worth of software, what with licences and what not, your machine is redundant because your motherboard cannot cope with the next generation of processors, which incidentally are not operating very well with your software. If your software could be transported to another machine and run on it provided the environment was the same.

Would you consider a system like AmigaDE, YES/NO

4). Are you happy that you have to keep on spending money on hardware when you really don't feel that your previous graphics card was properly exploited, when a leaner OS system might mean that you would have more use out of your purchases.

Would you consider a system like AmigaDE, YES/NO

5). Are you even remotely interested in having a choice of your future software? People moan about Microsoft having intentions to charge people for downloads on the Internet, that they will charge people ongoing licences for their software, much like pay-per-view.

Would you consider a system like AmigaDE, YES/NO

If you think this little questionnaire is a little unfair, lets look at the results of you answering NO to all of the above:

You are happy to have to keep buying more ram and bigger hard drives because programmers can't be arsed to code properly, you can cope with buggy software that crashes or looks like it has been rushed out, you have a bottomless pocket and couldn't care about replacing all that software, you would rather keep up with everyone else than actually use what you pay for, and you haven't learnt any lessons about the collapse of COMMODORE, ATARI, SEGA, IBM etc, etc, these were all 'untouchable' years ago, where the hell are they now??

But probably the biggest indictment of the whole questionnaire is that the question in each line was 'would you CONSIDER a system like AmigaDE', and you answered NO to each one........ means that even with compelling evidence, YOU WOULD NOT EVEN CONSIDER the prospect, is quite possibly more sad!

Frankly, I find it quite amusing that some people (like me years ago) think so avidly as the Amiga as being a blitter, a 4channel soundchip, AmigaDOS, 4096 colours, that they cannot possibly CONSIDER it as being more than that!

The fact that Nokia is showing an interest is VERY good news for Amiga and for the machine you all love. They were the ONLY mobile phone company NOT to lose money last year and are by far the biggest in the world. Anything that heightens the profile of AmigaDE, will also profile the Amiga system that you all love.....

Please, no-one take this as an attack on them personally, I took that quote because it kinda said it all, that some people cannot possibly conceive of the Amiga as being anything other than what it was....

.... and what it was was a great concept, that has been re-invented for a new world..... the world of computing will NEVER be the same, if Amiga Inc tried to produce a machine like the original designers did in 1983, christ.... I doubt this message board would even exist!

Again, my two pence worth, feel free to flame me/argue with me/hate me/.... I still love the Amiga, its just that the Amiga HAS to change to succeed.... at the moment, no-one on here has given any compelling reason what the alternative should be.

Akira

01 March 2002, 23:16

I think we talk about two different things here.

1) AmigaOne.

2) AmigaDE

I never mentioned the AmigaDE (Or is it OE? I always get confused)in any of my posts, I was particularly talking about AmigaOne...

What I mean, in brief, is that Amiga Inc. have, IMO, NOTHING to do with the Amiga I own and love. They just want to cash in using the Amiga brand. I'll quote Korodny:

Amiga users are willing to pay for software (some of them, sometimes). Linux users aren't, that's why there's practically no commercial software available for them. Sales figures for games ported from Windows are actually *higher* on AmigaOS than on Linux.

Who else wouldn't want such a community on their side? You could describe this as clever, and it is, but I don't like that kind of stuff. It's very Microsoft-y :P

The claims of "a new Amiga computer coming our way", or "Amiga's back" drive me crazy. Accept it people. Amiga is no longer a COMPUTER, the Amiga is NOT BACK. Because this is a new thing, as Galahad said. It evolved onto sometihng else.

I'll surely be trying out the AmigaDE (isn't it the same concept as Sun's ill-fated JavaOS? That's a concept which I LIKE A LOT), but I'm not buying no AmigaOne. I'm buying a Powermac G4 instead :)

Galahad, I have one question: how does Nokia's announcement benefits the scene around my 'old' A1200?

It might be 'obsolete' hardware, but I get more kicks out of it than out of any PC you can chuck me. And that, I support :D

Galahad/FLT

02 March 2002, 00:07

Quite simple my friend. Most peoples experiences of the Amiga are very positive. With Nokia on board, more people are likely to take Amiga very much more seriously.

What would that do for the A12oo? Quite easy really, Amiga Inc will have enough money to ensure that OS4 isn't the only thing they do for 68oXo Amiga's, because they will have the cash to continue supporting the classic Amiga. After all, one of the only reasons they are doing business at all is because of the still quite strong strength that Amiga owners have.

If not, then Amiga would have been dead in the water!

It can only be a good thing my friend :)

Akira

02 March 2002, 05:29

If what you say comes true, it'd be nice. But the way I see those bastards, I'm almost sure they won't spend a buck in legacy hardware. We'll see what happens. If they do spend the cash they earn from real Amigans, on real Amigas, then I'll shut my mouth and eat ten Boing ball logos for breakfast. I will! :D

Korodny

02 March 2002, 16:18

@Akira:

>> I think we talk about two different things here.
>>
>> 1) AmigaOne.
>>
>> 2) AmigaDE

These are different things *at the moment*. With OS5, both will get merged. Imagine
the AmigaOS you know being completely hardware agnostic and you look at the concept
of OS5 (well, nearly ;) ).

>> Who else wouldn't want such a community on their side? You could describe this as
>> clever, and it is, but I don't like that kind of stuff. It's very Microsoft-y :P

Amiga Inc. lost money with OS 3.9. And they won't make money from OS 4. They bought
the Amiga name because of the developers, not because of the users. And the developers
(well, most of them), would be quite happy if DE takes off.

>> The claims of "a new Amiga computer coming our way", or "Amiga's back" drive me
>> crazy. Accept it people. Amiga is no longer a COMPUTER, the Amiga is NOT BACK. Because
>> this is a new thing, as Galahad said. It evolved onto sometihng else.
[snip]
>> but I'm not buying no AmigaOne. I'm buying a Powermac G4 instead

Interesting. So a Mac is still a Mac, though it uses completely different, off-the-shelve
hardware (with a completely different processor) and a completely different OS than all the
Macs that were around a few years ago ? ;)

But an AmigaOne is no Amiga, even it uses the same OS that is around for 17 years now ?
If Commodore would still be around, do you think their latest Amiga offerings would be half
as powerful as an AmigaOne, if they would have continued to use custom chips ?

Something like the A500 will never happen again. There will never be a hardware that is so
far ahead of its competition like the Amiga was in 1985. If you think "Amiga" is a synonym for
"beating the crap out of your competitors", the Amiga is dead.

But IMHO, "Amiga" is about a certain way of "computing" (attention: stupid phrase alert) that
Amiga Technology's marketing division described as "Elegance through efficiency". And an
AmigaOne will still give me that experience. The hardware available today is excellent, it's
the software (OS and applications) that makes the difference.

>> Galahad, I have one question: how does Nokia's announcement benefits the scene around my
>> 'old' A1200?

(The following may sound a bit rude, but there's no offence intended) Why should Amiga Inc.
support you ? Do you support them (or other Amiga developers) ? Did you *buy* your Kickstart
ROMs ? Did you pay your Picasso96 shareware fee ? What was the last software you bought for
your Amiga (apart from used games and the like at E-Bay) ?

Blame the society, not Amiga Inc. for the way the system works :D

Akira

02 March 2002, 18:14

Step by step, we take this :)

Originally posted by Korodny
These are different things *at the moment*. With OS5, both will get merged. Imagine the AmigaOS you know being completely hardware agnostic and you look at the concept of OS5 (well, nearly ;) ).

How would they 'merge'? You just said AmigaDE is hardware agnostic (true), so why are you tying it up to a hardware spec like AmigaOne?

Amiga Inc. lost money with OS 3.9. And they won't make money from OS 4. They bought the Amiga name because of the developers, not because of the users. And the developers
(well, most of them), would be quite happy if DE takes off.

Ok, let's say you are right, you are a dev after all :) But dont tell me they didnt buy it because of the user community too. You said it yourself in that post.

Interesting. So a Mac is still a Mac, though it uses completely different, off-the-shelve hardware (with a completely different processor) and a completely different OS than all the Macs that were around a few years ago ? ;)
But an AmigaOne is no Amiga, even it uses the same OS that is around for 17 years now ?

The Macs of today, have compatibility with the Macs of back then (I don't need it anyway because I have a 68k Mac, and as any emulation, it's not 100% compatible). The AmigaOne is not compatible with old Amiga stuff, unless you hook up a 1200 to it (in that case, why the feck would I want compatibility if I have a real Amiga?). I might as well use UAE and be ridded with incompatibilities.
The fact that I'm buying a PMac G4 is that I can use MacOS 9 and MacOS X for my work, and I can install AmigaDE atop of it. I don't need to buy a computer just to run AmigaDE, as you say, AmigaDE is hardware agnostic, so why should I buy the AmigaOne if the computer I have (or plan to buy) complies with the AmigaOne specification? I see no point in buying it. Besides, I can't work with it. The software I need is just not available for AmigaDE, and will never be (too commercial)

If Commodore would still be around, do you think their latest Amiga offerings would be half
as powerful as an AmigaOne, if they would have continued to use custom chips ?

Man, I'm not discussing this. It's obvious that you can't do that on the computer world anymore. If you want to use custom chips and a fixed hardware spec, you have to make a console.

Something like the A500 will never happen again. There will never be a hardware that is so far ahead of its competition like the Amiga was in 1985. If you think "Amiga" is a synonym for "beating the crap out of your competitors", the Amiga is dead.

That's what I said. Amiga, as I know it, has been dead for long. Amiga to me is more than just a way of computing, and a concept of how things work, it's also how the hardware was built, and the machines themselves. It's a machine that still amazes me. I know the AmigaDE will give the Amiga feel to any machine, but I repeat my question: why should I buy an AmigaOne motherboard when the machine I have is perfectly AmigaDE compliant???

Why should Amiga Inc. support you ? Do you support them (or other Amiga developers) ? Did you *buy* your Kickstart ROMs ? Did you pay your Picasso96 shareware fee ? What was the last software you bought for your Amiga (apart from used games and the like at E-Bay) ?

I'd say I bought my Amiga ROMs, because they were inside the computer I bought. I do not use Picasso96, so I have to pay no shareware fee, and the last software I bought for my Amiga was a game on eBay, yes, but what did you want me to buy, if I bought an A1200 two weeks ago? :) I was going to buy Apano Sin, but I dont know what happened to that game. And now that I got a 1200 (and an expanded one, weee!), I am experiencing a LOT of new programs that I WILL get registered (WHDLoad, Eagleplayer, Miami, IBrowse, to name but a FEW). As I said, I quit keeping up-to-date with Amiga stuff in 1997.

You just don't know me, I am the kind of guy who is willing to fork out cash in preordering games that are in development, for strange platforms (like Metal Dust for the C64 SCPU), so they get developed. I DO support the platforms I like, despite of what you think. And I'm buying t-zero, now that I have the needed hardware. Isn't clickboom an Amiga developer? :)

Nevertheless, I don't support Amiga Inc., I always said I don't. And I don't want them to support me. I was just asking Galahad the relation between Amiga Inc. and legacy hardware :)

I hope you keep on helping me with my A1200 concerns, despite of my hatred against the AmigaOne (I repeat, NOT against the AmigaDE) and Amiga Inc. :D

Korodny

03 March 2002, 23:34

@Akira:

>> How would they 'merge'? You just said AmigaDE is hardware agnostic (true), so why
>> are you tying it up to a hardware spec like AmigaOne?

The original plan was to drop AmigaOS completely. AmigaDE can run both hosted (on top
of another OS - just imagine WinUAE and you get the concept) or native (being the only
OS running on the computer). Currently AmigaDE can run hosted on Linux, Win32, WinCE,
Symbios (plus a few others) and native on embedded devices (like PDAs).

But creating a native version for desktops proved to be impractical at the moment, due
to different reasons:

1. AmigaDE is based on Tao's Intent Technology. Intent is targeted at embeded devices,
not at the desktop - it lacks Memory Protection and Virtual Memory which are pretty
essential for a desktop OS. Tao refuses to implement these features at the moment.

2. Amiga Inc. is/was extremely low on money. Their employees didn't get paid for
several months last year. Developing/selling/supporting a desktop OS requires a
lot of ressources and money (given the state of the x86 market, with zillions of
different hardware configurations).

So they thought about it and came up with the following solution:

1. We already have a good desktop OS (AmigaOS), let's continue development on this one.

2. Once AmigaOS is up to date again, we will integrate AmigaDE transparently into
AmigaOS.

3. Final step (once we have the ressources available and DE gained a significant market
share): We will combine the best elements of AmigaDE (platform agnostic, "compile once,
run everywhere", scalability) with AmigaOS4 (good hardware abstraction layer, Virtual
Memory, Memory Protection, driver support for modern hardware) to form "AmigaOS 5".

AmigaOS4 is a "path". It is used to ensure the community (users, developers, traders,
the infrastructure in general) won't be dead by the time Amiga Inc. aims at the general
desktop market again. And it is used to implement technologies (e.g. Virtual Memory, or
drivers for modern 3D hardware) that is not needed (yet) for AmigaDE.

Now back to the AmigaOne:

The original concept looked like this:

- any of the following processors: x86, PPC, MIPS, Alpha, StrongARM
- runs AmigaDE natively

There's no native desktop version of AmigaDE yet, so the specs now look like this:

- PPC processor
- runs AmigaOS natively (which will have AmigaDE integrated later on)

AmigaDE is not "tied" to the AmigaOne. You can aswell run it on top of Windows or Linux
(there is *no* MacOS version btw.). It just won't run natively on desktop computers for
the next 1-2 years.

>> Ok, let's say you are right, you are a dev after all But dont tell me they didnt buy it
>> because of the user community too. You said it yourself in that post.

In commercial terms, the current community (the users, not the developers) is not worth any
efforts. You can't "rip them off" or something: Amino paid five million dollars to get the
rights on the Amiga brand name. You'll never make this kind of money by selling products
to classic Amiga users (or by selling OS4, licensing "AmigaOne" trademarks etc.).

>> The Macs of today, have compatibility with the Macs of back then (I don't need it anyway
>> because I have a 68k Mac, and as any emulation, it's not 100% compatible).
>> The AmigaOne is not compatible with old Amiga stuff, unless you hook up a 1200 to it

Wrong. An AmigaOne is compatible with old stuff, as long as that old stuff doesn't hit the
hardware directly. An AmigaOne will run Sas/C, Sbase4, Digibooster or Wordworth. But it won't
run Giana Sisters or Turrican if you don't have an A1200 attached.

It's *still the same OS*, just ported to PPC. AmigaOS4 comes with a pretty decent JIT 68k
emulator.

>> I don't need to buy a computer just to run AmigaDE, as you say, AmigaDE is hardware agnostic,
>> so why should I buy the AmigaOne if the computer I have (or plan to buy) complies with the
>> AmigaOne specification? I see no point in buying it. Besides, I can't work with it. The
>> software I need is just not available for AmigaDE, and will never be (too commercial)

Nobody expects you to buy an AmigaOne. This machine is intended for people who want to use
AmigaOS as their main OS. (btw., expect all AmigaOnes to run MacOS X natively (the Pegasos
already does) and MacOS 9 through really fast emulation (iFusion gets ported to OS4), that's
how *I* will run commercial software that's not available for AmigaOS).

>> That's what I said. Amiga, as I know it, has been dead for long. Amiga to me is more
>> than just a way of computing, and a concept of how things work, it's also how the hardware
>> was built, and the machines themselves. It's a machine that still amazes me.

I agree that a "classic" Amiga is an exciting piece of hardware (and of course they still
amaze me), but to me it's more (i.e. the OS). I guess we won't agree on that one ;)

>>>> Why should Amiga Inc. support you ? [snip]

>> You just don't know me,
[snip]

Okay, I admitt that was a cheap attempt :D

>> I was just asking Galahad the relation between Amiga Inc. and legacy hardware :)

There's a connection between Amiga Inc. and AmigaOS. There's no connection between Amiga
Inc. and legacy hardware (thank god!).

>> I hope you keep on helping me with my A1200 concerns, despite of my hatred against
>> the AmigaOne (I repeat, NOT against the AmigaDE) and Amiga Inc. :D

Hey, we're just having some decent argument, that's one of my preferred activities ;)
No need to get worried :D

oldpx

04 March 2002, 00:00

Wrong. An AmigaOne is compatible with old stuff, as long as that old stuff doesn't hit the
hardware directly. An AmigaOne will run Sas/C, Sbase4, Digibooster or Wordworth. But it won't
run Giana Sisters or Turrican if you don't have an A1200 attached.

I still think this is not an appropriate way of supporting old software. As far as I know, A1200 motherboard is not being manufactured anymore so how many of them are left now? Or how many of them will be available in five years. Hardware dies with time thus availability of an A1200 is getting lower. Maybe I can't precisely express my point. Maybe there is no point but I'm getting extremely paranoid about that :p Unless a 100% classic amiga compatible hardware is manufactured, classic amiga will remain dead. How much can you emulate? There are always something emulators cannot do. I can't use AGA demos with UAE at full speed even with JIT!

I'm aware that amiga is low on cash but nothing would be different for classic amiga users if amiga had a lot of money anyway. I'm not supporting a company just because they have the copyright of Amiga. Amiga inc, beware there's a mad Turk watching your every step.

oldpx

04 March 2002, 00:15

I must add, I'm perfectly aware that backwards compatibility should not slow down future development of Amiga (or whatever it is) if there is some kind of future. :D

Twistin'Ghost

04 March 2002, 01:04

This is a fascinating thread and very educational even to us old-schoolers. As I read through each post, something occured to me: this board needs an FAQ explaining the differences between all of these terms that mike confuse some users. The terms I am referring to are AmigaDE, Amiga One, Amiga Inc., AmigaOS4, AmigaOS5, Amiga Inc., PPC, AIAB, Amiga Forever, etc.

Imagine the scenario of an old ex-Amiga user wanting to return to the scene, either to run fav apps, play old games, develop, do old-school stuff, or to return to the Amiga as a native user. It could be very confusing getting up to date with all that has happened, all that is happening, and all that is proposed for the future. Even I get a little lost when reading about so many Amiga models in development and which is which. Just an FAQ that explains what the differences are would be an invaluable reference and this board is the perfect place for such a reference guide. Preferably an unbiased one that just details specs and such, but even an opinionated one would be better than none at all.

Korodny, you seem like the perfect person to author such a FAQ, but since my head is spinning from so much information, I may not even be the best person to make such a call. Any other thoughts on this?

Ian

04 March 2002, 01:09

Originally posted by Twistin'Ghost
Korodny, you seem like the perfect person to author such a FAQ, but since my head is spinning from so much information, I may not even be the best person to make such a call. Any other thoughts on this?
As long as Korodny stop's pressing enter while his sentance's are in mid
flow;)

:laughing

Korodny

04 March 2002, 02:23

@Burseg:

>> I still think this is not an appropriate way of supporting old software.

You lot never gave me a valid reason why old software should be
supported at all...

Certainly not for games. I mean, it's a nice bonus if I can play my old
favourites on an AmigaOne, but I wouldn't dream of *demanding* it from a
hardware manufacturer...

There's very few software (I'm speaking about applications) that is still
"useful" today. People that still want to use these applications (e.g. Scala)
already have a classic Amiga (chances are that this is a A1200, and if not,
they still could use their classic Amiga as a standalone machine...)

>> As far as I know, A1200 motherboard is not being manufactured anymore so
>> how many of them are left now? Or how many of them will be available in
>> five years. Hardware dies with time thus availability of an A1200 is
>> getting lower.

That's sad, but is that a reason that Amiga Inc. provides new compatible
hardware for the rest of their lifetime, even if there's nobody producing
software for it anymore?

Do you blame Nintendo that the GameCube doesn't play old NES titles? ;)

>> Unless a 100% classic amiga compatible hardware is manufactured, classic
>> amiga will remain dead.

It is dead. AmigaOne is no classic Amiga, it's the next generation of Amigas.

>> I'm aware that amiga is low on cash but nothing would be different for
>> classic amiga users if amiga had a lot of money anyway. I'm not supporting
>> a company just because they have the copyright of Amiga.

Nobody asks you to support Amiga Inc. :D

oldpx

04 March 2002, 02:39

I think we have to discuss what "amiga" is before discussing amiga inc. To me, it's the machine standing on my desk with it's os. and after commodore's death, it's presence is slowly fading. Now AmigaOS is being transformed into a new concept. In the end there will be nothing but a concept of "Amiga" that has no relevance with that machine.

I'm mainly talking about games because many self booting games have nothing to do with AmigaOS but they are directly related with the machine standing on my desk (will be called as "my miggy"from now on :D) "Amiga",with it's custom chips, runs them and that's a solid fact.

Do you blame Nintendo that the GameCube doesn't play old NES titles? Come on, N64 and nes are consoles and this is totally irrelevant.

After all, it's pretty obvious that amiga hardware cannot be manufactured and marketed the way it could 15 years ago, but the direction Amiga inc has taken will make them a big software company with the name "Amiga" and this name will not have -anything- in common with my miggy therefore it will ruin what is left of Amiga. If it is dead and cannot be revived the way it deserves, it must rest.

Akira

04 March 2002, 02:42

Tahnks for the explanation, now I know why you related the two :) I still disagree with the compatibility thing.... lots of apps (not games) hit the hardware directly, like DPaint (invaluable to me)..

Originally posted by Korodny
You lot never gave me a valid reason why old software should be supported at all...

I dont think the lot of current Amiag users dont use ANY old software, even less games. Theysurely play, they love them Amiga games! A product that has the Amiga brand, should support all that stuff. never forget your roots!
But if it cant be done... whatever.. It doesnt change my point of view anyway :)

oldpx

04 March 2002, 02:58

Anyone knows this (http://www.amiga-hardware.com/a3000ux.html) amiga -without- AmigaOS? It has unix installed yet it is an Amiga, there is no doubt. But AmigaOne's -amiga identity- is a lot doubtful.

By the way, there are people developing software that work on a classic amiga, just check aminet.

APFelon

04 March 2002, 04:20

Originally posted by Korodny

Nobody asks you to support Amiga Inc. :D [/B]

After dealing with Gary "(*Censored*)-face" Peake, there is no danger of me supporting Amiga INC. The AmigaOne could shoot free beer from it's i/o ports and I wouldn't touch it if I were in the middle of an alcohol withdrawl-induced foammouth seizurefest.

I know this isn't relevant to what is being discussed, but I had to get that off of my mind. :D

Korodny

04 March 2002, 06:12

@Twisting Ghost:

>> Korodny, you seem like the perfect person to author such a FAQ, but since
>> my head is spinning from so much information, I may not even be the best
>> person to make such a call. Any other thoughts on this?

I'd be glad to compile such a FAQ, if there's demand for it.

@Ian:

>> As long as Korodny stop's pressing enter while his sentance's are in mid
>> flow ;)

I'm sorry, but I guess you'll have to live with that :( I'm using CygnusEd
to edit my replies, as AWeb's text field editor is somewhat limited (to say
the least) and text editors have that annoying habbit of ending a line with
a CR ;).

@Burseg, Akira:

Your point of view is "It has custom chips, therefore it's an Amiga", my
point of view is "It runs AmigaOS natively, therefore it's an Amiga". We
won't agree on that one, I'm afraid ;)

@Akira:

>> I still disagree with the compatibility thing.... lots of apps (not games)
>> hit the hardware directly, like DPaint (invaluable to me)..

That's why you can attach an A1200 to your AmigaOne :) The AmigaOne+A1200
combination will certainly be as compatible with old stuff as my current
Amiga (A1200PPC, 64MB, GfxCard) - and it *will* be able to boot non-DOS
games from disk.

Name Apps that are *not* hopelessely outdated and require the custom chips.
I know three: Dpaint, Brilliance (mainly for their animation features) and
Scala. That's about it. Don't yell "VideoToaster" at me, as that would
require Zorro slots (and analog video editing is *really* yesterday's
technology).

Btw. If you like DPaint, check PersonalPaint (*should* run on an AmigaOne)
or PerfectPaint (Aminet), which is a brilliant freeware DPaint clone.

utri007

04 March 2002, 09:12

I haven't heard Apple people said that thei computer isn't mac anymore.....

First they move to 680x0 cpus to PPCs, all old apps was emulated.

second they build new OS with UNIX and Acrobat reader. and again....

Allright not a same thing but...

Anyway I glad to see some kind of reborn of amiga I wouldn't care even if it joke compared 5 year old Macs and PCs, based Coldfire cpus or something like that. (Coldfire=somekind 68080)

It's still Amiga (officially) and Amiga is my hoppy

But guys this is not a serious thing so ...

I really like read differen opinions and I don't try to change anybody mind.

Twistin'Ghost

04 March 2002, 09:34

Originally posted by Korodny
I'd be glad to compile such a FAQ, if there's demand for it.
I can assure you, there is a demand for it!

Originally posted by Korodny
I'm sorry, but I guess you'll have to live with that :( I'm using CygnusEd to edit my replies, as AWeb's text field editor is somewhat limited (to say the least) and text editors have that annoying habbit of ending a line with a CR ;).
Ah, but that is a configurable option in CED... :cheese

Pyromania

04 March 2002, 09:37

Originally posted by Korodny
Name Apps that are *not* hopelessely outdated and require the custom chips.
I know three: Dpaint, Brilliance (mainly for their animation features) and
Scala. That's about it. Don't yell "VideoToaster" at me, as that would
require Zorro slots (and analog video editing is *really* yesterday's
technology).

The Video Toaster requires a free Video slot and does digital NLE editing with the Flyer card which goes into a Zorro slot. Many of the features of a Video Toaster 4000 & Flyer card are still not available on other editing systems. Even Toaster [2] does not have all the features of the Video Toaster Flyer.

"Video Toaster Flyer: The tapeless Editor: No editing system in the world compares to the quality, price, and ease of use of NewTek's revolutionary new Video Toaster Flyer. The Flyer is a D2, broadcast-quality, tapeless nonlinear edit system that costs $4795.00 (Or $500-$700 on ebay). Forget the hassle of hooking up a complicated A-B Roll editing system. Forget the expense of buying an edit controller and three VTR's. Forget waiting for sluggish tape access in an offline studio. With the Video Toaster, all that's history. Now you can record your video direct-to-disk, make edit decisions with the Flyer's drag and drop controls, and enjoy the finished program all in the same afternoon. Don't like the way a sequence looks? Drag the video clips into a new order, insert a new scene, or drop in background music with the click of a mouse. The choice is yours. Best of all, every change is immediate. There's no re-recording, no tape generation loss, and there are no botched edits. For a fraction of the cost, the Video Toaster Flyer provides the quality you expect from a $50,000 digital video deck. Plus, the flyer seamlessly integrates into the Video Toaster System."

http://www.computerroom.com/sales/video_hardware/NewTek/Toaster/vtamiga.htm

oldpx

04 March 2002, 20:03

Your point of view is "It has custom chips, therefore it's an Amiga", my
point of view is "It runs AmigaOS natively, therefore it's an Amiga". We
won't agree on that one, I'm afraid

Amiga 3000UX is an extreme example but my point is actually "if it has AmigaOS that runs on an real amiga hardware, it is Amiga. My definition of Amiga hardware is, a multimedia computer that has advanced audiovisual abilities ahead of the standards of it's time yet easy to use and as inexpensive as any home computer. That's what Amiga once was and what it should be. AmigaOS is good with amiga hardware but it's just a gui when it runs on a x86 machine. I can do that with windowblinds :rolleyes

Korodny

06 March 2002, 04:18

@Twisting':

>> I can assure you, there is a demand for it!

I'll post my version of a "Amiga these days" faq tomorrow. It's more of an
article than a faq, but who cares ;)

>> Ah, but that is a configurable option in CED...

Not that I know of ? I can turn on word wrapping, but that will still
generate linefeeds ?

@Burseg:

>> Amiga 3000UX is an extreme example but my point is actually "if it has AmigaOS
>> that runs on an real amiga hardware, it is Amiga.

There's no further need to discuss this ;) You won't agree that an AmigaOne
is an Amiga, and I won't agree that an Amiga needs custom chips.

Actually, I feel sorry for you: I can look forward to purchasing a new
Amiga model - you can't :D

oldpx

06 March 2002, 04:38

I already have my new Amiga.

Djay

06 March 2002, 05:09

Okay here goes.....

AmigaOne - A new amiga that uses other companies hardware, it's like a PC or MAC (apart from processor) then?

Software - Who is gonna write software for this machine?

Drivers - If its using other companies hardware (officially?), who is gonna write the drivers?

Software again - Is the general market gonna except another OS in the mix (Windows, Linux, Beos, Mac OS X,9)?

Software again, again - The wonderfull windows XP :shocked isn't truly backwardly compatiable, i suppose this is gonna happen with the AmigaOne OS?

Business use - how many businesses do you know that used the Amiga 10 years ago?

Lifespan - The Amiga as a machine lasted a fairly long time (commerically), but it did die, whos to say that won't happen again?

Nokia - What do nokia know about the computer industry?

Amiga - What has the AmigaOne got to do with the Amiga, it uses none of the original hardware, OS or software?

Thanks for in advance for answering my stupid questions...

Twistin'Ghost

06 March 2002, 05:42

Your post, Djay, is precisely why I feel there is a serious need for an FAQ that better explains these differences. I realize not all of your questions would end up on an FAQ, but you get the idea.
Software - Who is gonna write software for this machine?
Good question. I know there are games being developed for the platform. This page (http://www.amigaflame.demon.co.uk/amigone.htm) lists some of them.

The only way, it seems, to look at all of this is that AmigaOne is just another platform...that is not neccesarily a true-boing AC (Amiga compatible). Yeah...we can have AmigaAC's and AmigaNC's (Not Compatible)! :laughing

7-Zark-7

06 March 2002, 15:56

Okay,just thought I'd add my two cents worth about the "amiga" & what it meant....
I have to agree with Akira,Burseg,Djay etc.,the Amiga was about it hardware capabilities. When it was first shown off to the world it seemed unbeliveable specifications,4096 colours on-screen etc. It was the machine that every other design had to beat.
If this new Amiga is being aimed at the small percentage that are still active Amiga users,then it'll die at it's birth. It would take something spectacularly new to drive users away from their PC's, PS2's,Mac's,X-box's etc.
And for those that knock the "games don't matter" line,it could be argued the gaming sectore kept the Amiga alive for as long as it did. And look at how the average PC took off after Doom rose to prominence, you had to have sound,& a good GFX card etc.
Can you honestly say the PC market would've taken off had it not been for gamers hankering to the latest X-brand sound/GFX card to run "Y" game??

Djay

06 March 2002, 16:46

bloody hell someone agrees with me for once

:D :rolleyes :D :rolleyes :D :rolleyes :D

Korodny

06 March 2002, 19:07

@Djay:

>> AmigaOne - A new amiga that uses other companies hardware, it's like a PC or
>> MAC (apart from processor) then?

Yes. In fact, it is pretty much the same as a Mac.

>> Software - Who is gonna write software for this machine?

I answered that in a reply to one of Frederic's postings.

>> Drivers - If its using other companies hardware (officially?), who is gonna
>> write the drivers?

Amiga developers of course ;). OS4 will include drivers for:

- Soundblaster Live and SB ??? (What's that high end model with the EMU-something
chip called?)
- ATI Radeon family (including latest models)
- Matrox G450/550 and similar
- Voodoo 3/4/5
- Permedia 2/3
- SCRIPTS (SCSI controller)
- Some LAN adapter chipset I actually forgot.

USB stack will be minimal at first (mice, keyboards). Probably Turboprint (commercial
third party product which Amigans use for printer support for ages) will be released
as a USB version.

I can't go into more detail, as there are still negotiations going on. Expect AmigaOS4
to support a very limited range of hardware (compared to Windows), but expect it to
have very good support for the stuff that actually is supported.

>> Software again - Is the general market gonna except another OS in the mix (Windows,
>> Linux, Beos, Mac OS X,9)?

You guys have to get one thing out of your minds: AmigaOS4 and the AmigaOne are
*not* an attempt to get into the "general market". The AmigaOne won't be sold by your
average PC dealer. There is no way to break Window's dominance by simply offering an
alternative OS.

That said, there *is* demand for a Windows alternative. AmigaOS offers a lot of
advantages, compared to Linux or MacOS. Advantages for users:

- very ressource friendly and fast
- very sensible structure, easy to understand, the user is controlling the OS, not
vice versa
- *highly* configurable to fit your needs
- there is already a broad range of software available
- existing infrastructure (user groups, Amiga shows, web based services, magazines,
dealers)

Adavantages for developers:

- users that are willing to pay for software (as opposed to the Linux community,
the Linux market is no market for commercial software developers)
- very easy to code
- very well documented APIs
- free software development kits and documentation
- existing infrastructure (see above)

Once again: If you think Windows is a good OS, or it suits your needs at least,
you shouldn't bother with AmigaOS4.

>> Software again, again - The wonderfull windows XP isn't truly backwardly
>> compatiable, i suppose this is gonna happen with the AmigaOne OS?

Please don't use the words "WindowsXP" and "wonderful" in the same sentence.

The A1 will be able to run a lot of the existing applications (probably 99% of the
stuff that was developed/updated in the last few years). And it will run a lot of
the really *old* stuff if an A1200 motherboard is attached. You'll probably need
WHDLoad to get games running, but I already need to do that on my current A1200
(and WHDLoad is a brilliant piece of software).

>> Business use - how many businesses do you know that used the Amiga 10 years ago?

Not much. Blame Commodore. So what? AmigaOne is still a "home computer".

>> Lifespan - The Amiga as a machine lasted a fairly long time (commerically), but
>> it did die, whos to say that won't happen again?

Nobody. So what? If Amiga fails miserably, I'll use MacOS X on my AmigaOne.

>> Nokia - What do nokia know about the computer industry?

Next to nothing. But Nokia knows *a lot* about embedded devices. And that's where
AmigaDE is aiming at the moment. Note that there's a difference between AmigaOne/
AmigaOS4 and AmigaDE.

>> Amiga - What has the AmigaOne got to do with the Amiga, it uses none of the
>> original hardware, OS or software?

An AmigaOne uses the same OS that your A500 used. There's still exec.library,
dos.library and intuition.library.

You can attach an A1200 to your AmigaOne, then it will have "Custom Chips", just
like your A500 (and that's the *only* possible way to do this).

An AmigaOne runs a lot of the old software (as long as an A1200 is attached) and
all software that is retargettable (without an A1200 attached).

Djay

06 March 2002, 19:21

thanks Korodny for clearing that up, although some of your points i don't agree with... I always refer to my Amiga as Classic :D

and

Please don't use the words "WindowsXP" and "wonderful" in the same sentence.

i wasn't being serious!!!:D

Korodny

06 March 2002, 19:30

@7-Zark-7:

>> I have to agree with Akira,Burseg,Djay etc.,the Amiga was about it hardware
>> capabilities. When it was first shown off to the world it seemed unbeliveable
>> specifications,4096 colours on-screen etc. It was the machine that every
>> other design had to beat.

I see your point (and I partly agree of course). As this is a retro-gaming board,
I'm not surprised by this attitude.

But face it: 2D gaming is practically dead (that would be the one area where
Amiga technology would still be somehwat competitive), same goes for analog video.

Today, computers are about true colour image manipulation, 3D gaming, and digital
video/audio. The hardware that is available is extremely good at these jobs.
There is no sense in trying to compete with the existing hardware. You won't have
the slightest chance - and why should you try to do so at all?

Two years ago, the NASA still used Amigas for mission critical surveillance
issues (don't know if they still do). Draco and Casablanca were extremely popular
(at least in Europe) NLE video editing devices using AmigaOS, but not the Amiga
custom chips. Amigas were able to burn MP3s on the fly to CDDAs, years before
PCs could handle that task. These are reasons why *I* still love this machine
(not to forget retro-gaming of course :) and that are not tied to the Custom
Chips.

>> If this new Amiga is being aimed at the small percentage that are still active
>> Amiga users,then it'll die at it's birth.

Well, that's your point of view. Some people are putting lots of money into the
OS4 project, I guess these people don't share your viewpoint :D

>> It would take something spectacularly new to drive users away from their PC's,
>> PS2's,Mac's,X-box's etc.

No. Does Linux have something spectacular to offer? Or the Mac? And Windows has a
lot of spectacular faults btw. ;)

>> And for those that knock the "games don't matter" line,it could be argued the
>> gaming sectore kept the Amiga alive for as long as it did.

I didn't say "games don't matter". I said "old games don't matter", because somebody
requested all future Amigas must have Custom Chip compatability.

oldpx

07 March 2002, 02:42

But face it: 2D gaming is practically dead (that would be the one area where
Amiga technology would still be somehwat competitive), same goes for analog video.

Today, computers are about true colour image manipulation, 3D gaming, and digital
video/audio. The hardware that is available is extremely good at these jobs.
There is no sense in trying to compete with the existing hardware. You won't have
the slightest chance - and why should you try to do so at all?

Of course today's computing is a lot different and I don't say we should get stuck with old hardware and watch our rotten A1200 mainboards die. But I mean, if Amiga should return, that should be something extraordinary! What is Amigaone for? Apart from it's technology, the targeted market is different. It's not a home computer, it's a geek computer! People like us may wonder and buy it but that's just it because there is -no reason- for anyone to buy it. Admit it, it has just ordinary technology and extremely sparse (:D) software support. Refuse this if you'd like but please answer, will there ever be amigaone/amigaos versions of photoshop,lightwave or maya or <put your favourite killer gfx app here> ? This will never happen and I can't think of an amiga that is not about graphics. Forget the custom chipset, let's say it was yesterday's technology. That's a fact it was old but it was an obvious advantage for amiga in the graphic market at that time. Today amiga should win it's advantageous position back if amigaone is to be a machine that deserves it's name and this *could* be achieved with software if amiga doesn't manufacture it's own hardware anymore. That's ok as long as good 2d gfx boards like matrox's or nvidia's or ati's 3d accelerators will work with a1 but windows and mac platforms have great software support. Hardware is useless without software and crappy photogenics is nothing against adobe photoshop and I don't think amiga inc or their partners in crime are aware of that. Additionally, software support is nothing alone, amigaone/amigaos should be BETTER in running that software and a1 is in need of a miracle :rolleyes

Also I wonder why would anyone install macos on amigaone, when they can just get a mac.

This is a retrogaming board but that doesn't mean that we are all stuck with pointless nostalgia, no matter how much you'd like to see it this way.

Djay

07 March 2002, 04:09

Apple has a killer OS, but still the industry standard main business apps (wordprocessor, spreadsheet etc...) are made for OS 9,X by microsoft, of course i'm refering to Mac Office...

... do really think that Microsoft are going to port these "Killer Apps" to an Amiga OS, i think not, and don't go saying "the Amiga doesn't need these apps", software makes the machine, the hardware is useless without software...

... love or hate 'em, microsoft make the "Important business tools" even Apple admit that, business computing takes a huge market share of the overall industry, if you don't get support from developers you are dead.

Amiga Inc/AmigaOne does not have buckets of money, but still they are saying basically "we want to make an OS/machine, that will not sell", if you don't make big sales you are dead.

there are 335 members of EAB, most of which probably have a fairly good income, love the Amiga, large technical knowledge of either coding, graphics, music, OS design and hardware development, SO I SAY * BOLLOCKS *, lets all come together to make a new Amiga, one that we want to see...

... now i know as well as you do, this just isn't possible, but so is Amiga Inc of making a success of this whole scenerio...

I.M.H.O.