WHDLoad Arkanoid

[oneshotdead]

Last night, while playing Arkanoid, the BALL SPEED was far, faar, faaar, too FAST.

I know my Arkanoid (every version---STEEM is PERFECT), so don't try to tell me I'm hallucinating. I am a legend at this game (or was) and I can get nowhere as it is.

Also, it isn't a setting, since the first time I played it was fast, and the second itwas actually at NORMAL speed (I did not F12 back to WinUAE, just started another game). It continued at normal speed in each subsequent game (Which was grood! Wow. Just wow! I actually get to play it like it's meant to be played!)... but when I reloaded WinUAE and the game this morning, it's back to the Arkanoid on speed, rendering it totally unplayable, even for a Quake twitch player like myself.

(By the way, for all you dolts who would say "the ball does accelerate over time", well, duh! That's not the point. It's supposed to start slow and THEN gradually accelerate in stages. As it is, it STARTS fast and then just goes psycho.)

So, basically, this random problem (the most annoying ones of all) is either w/ WinUAE itself or with WHDLoad.

Can someone fix it please?

I really want to register this WHDLoad, because it is a great idea, but not if games are going to have random annoyances such as this due to lack of playtesting.

[Retro-Nerd]

Are you playing the PAL or NTSC WHDLoad version?

[Galahad/FLT]

I really want to register this WHDLoad, because it is a great idea, but not if games are going to have random annoyances such as this due to lack of playtesting.

Downloaded by - 4628 people
Install written - 1999

Thats 8 years of playtesting, that good enough for you?

[oneshotdead]

Are you playing the PAL or NTSC WHDLoad version?

I was using the PAL version, but like I said, it actually was far, faar, faaar too fast first of all, then, upon beginning another game (without exiting, without tinkering), it played at the CORRECT speed. I kept playing, amazed that it actually kept playing correctly.

But then I quit out, loaded up the EXACT same WinUAE settings, and it was back to psycho speed again, and I couldn't get it back to CORRECT speed by starting new game after new game.

Trust me, man, I KNOW how fast this game should play: I played it on original ST/Amiga hardware for years. It is one of my all-time faves.

I downloaded the PAL version from here http://www.whdownload.com/games.php?name=a&sort=0&dir=0 (grood site by the way!), and just downloaded the NTSC version and tried to run it.

I got:

Error in Display Initialisation.
possible reasons:
-screen will be promoted
-PAL/NTSC/DBLPAL/DBLNTSC Monitor not installed
-not enough free store

How can I fix this, please? I have looked for an option within WB3.1 (i.e., ScreenMode), but can see nothing to change to NTSC (if that is indeed my issue). Also, back in WinUAE, if I check NTSC, WinUAE shits itself.

As for "not enough free store", I have 3MB free in my Programs "partition", where all my WHDLoads are located.

Downloaded by - 4628 people
Install written - 1999

Thats 8 years of playtesting, that good enough for you?

Point taken, but how have others solved this issue, or are they simply unaware of the speed issue? Maybe they can't recall exactly how these old games played on original hardware? Also, I did say this could be a WHDLoad OR a WinUAE issue in my initial post!

I saw in another thread Xenon had an opposite problem where it ran slowly. Has that been resolved? I love that game and hope to play it soon.

[eLowar]

I can't contribute much, although I seem to remember there being a discussion (here or on IRC) a while back about the game running too fast in WinUAE, and I think it was about the floppy version back then.

As far as I remember there was no proper conclusion back then either though, unfortunately. But at least it's some indication it's not necessarily WHDLoad's fault. I think I tried all three versions (cracked ADF, original SPS and WHDLoad install) in GameBase Amiga and they at least seemed to run with the same speed, which did seem kinda fast to me, but I don't exactly know how fast it should run either, admittedly.

How's about someone tries it on a real Amiga and compares? ;)

[Graham Humphrey]

It's been ages since I played it but I'm sure it runs okay on my A1200. Maybe that's one for me to test later on ;)

[Belgarath]

The ones in GameBase would run fast, they're all the NTSC version :)

[eLowar]

Here's the thread I was talking about before: "game runs too damn fast" (http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=30183) (posted by captainxod)

As I said, no really useful conclusion in there. At least you know you're not alone. ;)

[fc.studio]

(By the way, for all you dolts who would say "the ball does accelerate over time", well, duh! That's not the point. It's supposed to start slow and THEN gradually accelerate in stages. As it is, it STARTS fast and then just goes psycho.)



On my real A1200 PAL version works fine. It starts normal and gradually accelerates.

[Graham Humphrey]

So I wasn't going mad then, it does work ;)

[oneshotdead]

Man, I already told you guys this games runs at a certain speed on original hardware, the correct speed. I played the bloody thing on STs and Amigas (STFMs/STEs, 500s and 1200s). I KNOW how fast this thing runs. When you play a game as an adolescent for many hours every day for months you kinda get a feel for the thing... and like most peeps who don't suffer from braindamage, my memory of adolescence is acute and accurate.

Try level 3 for instance. It is VERY difficult on WinUAE yet slightly difficult on a real Miggy.

What's weird is that it ran at the correct speed the second time I played. So I had one crap playthrough where the ball launched at a rate which it would only reach after about 20 or so "rebounds", and if you don't clear the level efficiently, the ball accelerates to the point where you simply lose track of it.

(That's the nature of the game: reflexes, forethought, and a little luck, all to avoid the ball over-accelerating.)

Once I got to like level 10 at that unfair speed, I simply tried another playthrough. Then all of a sudden the ball launched at the CORRECT speed. It stayed like that for many subsequent games, I was getting into the very high levels, like the old days.

Then I load it up the next day and it's gone back to this psycho speed. Same WinUAE settings, same WHDLoad files.

I just finished uninstalling, deleting the WinUAE directory, my whole virtual HDD etc..EVERYTHING, then reintalling it all. Same shit, sigh.

[viddi]

Man, I already told you guys this games runs at a certain speed on original hardware, the correct speed. I played the bloody thing on STs and Amigas (STFMs/STEs, 500s and 1200s). I KNOW how fast this thing runs. When you play a game as an adolescent for many hours every day for months you kinda get a feel for the thing... and like most peeps who don't suffer from braindamage, my memory of adolescence is acute and accurate.

Try level 3 for instance. It is VERY difficult on WinUAE yet slightly difficult on a real Miggy.

What's weird is that it ran at the correct speed the second time I played. So I had one crap playthrough where the ball launched at a rate which it would only reach after about 20 or so "rebounds", and if you don't clear the level efficiently, the ball accelerates to the point where you simply lose track of it.

(That's the nature of the game: reflexes, forethought, and a little luck, all to avoid the ball over-accelerating.)

Once I got to like level 10 at that unfair speed, I simply tried another playthrough. Then all of a sudden the ball launched at the CORRECT speed. It stayed like that for many subsequent games, I was getting into the very high levels, like the old days.

Then I load it up the next day and it's gone back to this psycho speed. Same WinUAE settings, same WHDLoad files.

I just finished uninstalling, deleting the WinUAE directory, my whole virtual HDD etc..EVERYTHING, then reintalling it all. Same shit, sigh.

So, why not buy an original Amiga? The best way to play Amiga games if you ask me. :great

[oneshotdead]

Just loaded the game like 30 times, and the ball launched at the correct speed on 3 (only 3!) boot-ups. (i.e., F12, reset, double-click game icon). That's not a good hit rate.

Also, this is NOT an original Arkanoid.

As for your insightful comment that I should re-purchase original hardware, I would wave my hand dismissively, because I like the portability of an emulator..though if I can't play my fave games authentically, I may have to carry an A500 under my arm wherever it is I go.

[Wepl]

I noticed that its very fast during creating the install. But I had nothing to compare. So I thought it would be normal.

I would be interesting if its also too fast when playing it from an ipf.
To make sure its not a copy protection related problem.

The NTSC version is even faster than the PAL version.

[eLowar]

I would be interesting if its also too fast when playing it from an ipf.
To make sure its not a copy protection related problem.

The NTSC version is even faster than the PAL version.

From what I can tell, the WHDLoad and SPS version, run at the same speed in NTSC WinUAE, same with the cracked ADF. I can post the exact WinUAE settings used if it would help you any.

Edit: Well, in the spirit of speeding things up, and since it's not much effort (even if they're not needed :)), I just went ahead and attached the WinUAE configurations used in my previous statements about the speed of Arkanoid. Note that the WHDLoad config runs ArkanoidNTSC.slave through a custom startup-sequence/user-startup, which is not included (the whole working setup comes with GameBase Amiga (http://gbamiga.elowar.com/)). Also note that these files contain some of my local absolute paths which I was too lazy to edit, should be no big deal though. :)

[oneshotdead]

OK...

1. Arkanoid (1988)(Discovery Software)[cr SF].adf
2. Arkanoid (1988)(Discovery Software)[cr SF][a2].adf
3. Arkanoid (1988)(Discovery Software)[cr SF][a].adf
4. Arkanoid (1988)(Discovery Software)[cr SF][f AGA].adf
5. Arkanoid (1988)(Discovery Software)[cr SF][m DF].adf
6. Arkanoid v1.05 (1988-03-31)(Discovery Software)(US)[cr ESI].adf

All downloaded from here: http://planetemu.net/index.php?section=roms&dat=257&page=a

All played too fast, except No.6, which didn't work at all.

Now, QS...

1. why so many versions, all of which suck?

2. And eLowar, what is an IPF and an SPS, in simple terms?

3. Also, if ANYONE out there can configure WinUAE to run this game at authentic speed (using ADF, WHDLoad, whatever), please attach your config. Thank you all for your input.

[eLowar]

1. why so many versions, all of which suck?

Well, TOSEC generally preserves every version available, I believe on the basis that it's safest to do so. Discarding a version in favor of a "better" one may be regretted later, when it turns out the "better" one has some flaw that maybe could've been fixed with the "less good" one. Also there are versions with trainers, different crackers (if you e.g. consider cracktros worth preserving), etc. etc.

What you listed, except for the last, are all essentially the same version. [cr ...] describes who cracked it, [a#] just means alternate version (which seems to be the same version but has a different checksum), [f AGA] means fixed for AGA, [m ...] means modified I believe. See the TOSEC Naming Convention (http://wiki.toseciso.org/tnc) (courtesy of TOSEC ISO) for a full explanation of TOSEC names.

2. And eLowar, what is an IPF and an SPS, in simple terms?

``The Software Preservation Society (http://www.softpres.org/) (SPS), formerly the Classic Amiga Preservation Society (CAPS), dedicates itself to the preservation of software for the future, namely classic games. As it is, these items are no longer available from their original suppliers, and are mainly in the possession of an ever diminishing community of well willed collectors. However, just by the passage of time these games are affected by the gradual deterioration of the media that stores them. These classics risk being lost forever in the near future, a tragedy that must be prevented.''

The Interchangeable Preservation Format (http://www.softpres.org/glossary:ipf) (IPF) is the file format they use to store disks. It contains a lot more low level information than ADF, which makes it possible to run copy protected games without cracks. IPFs are perfect, unmodified original versions of the games.

Oh, and an important related pointer to the EAB rules: SPS (formerly CAPS) FAQ - DO'S & DONT'S (http://eab.abime.net/faq.php?faq=eab_rules#faq_caps_faq_item)

3. Also, if ANYONE out there can configure WinUAE to run this game at authentic speed (using ADF, WHDLoad, whatever), please attach your config. Thank you all for your input.

Hmm...

[Wepl]

So it seems to me that it is an internal bug of the game.
Probably some missing synchronization.

Such bugs are usually very hard to locate. I will not try to fix this. If someone wants I can provide the slave source.

[oneshotdead]

Thank you for the information, eLowar. That's enough stupid Qs from me, at least in this thread.

[jotd]

So it seems to me that it is an internal bug of the game.
Probably some missing synchronization.

Such bugs are usually very hard to locate. I will not try to fix this. If someone wants I can provide the slave source.

I had a similar problem with Hybris. Game works OK on amigas, and flies unplayable on a WinUAE. It used a beam with did not work (I still don't know how but I have fixed it in a Amiga & WinUAE compatible way).

So Bert if you want to send the source I can have a look on WinUAE.

[bippym]

Well, TOSEC generally preserves every version available, I believe on the basis that it's safest to do so. Discarding a version in favor of a "better" one may be regretted later, when it turns out the "better" one has some flaw that maybe could've been fixed with the "less good" one. Also there are versions with trainers, different crackers (if you e.g. consider cracktros worth preserving), etc. etc.

Okay TOSEC preserves all unique versions (even bad ones) for various reasons, but I suppose the main reason is so there are no "unknown" copies floating about that would need to be tested over and over!

This is NOT an elegant solution and I would prefer all [b] versions and [a]lt versions are kept in seperate dats.

Once a version has been played to completion it should be put in the main dat and all others in the alt and bad dats (which incidentally do not exist).

It's a nightmare testing games and versions, until a game has been played through from beginning to end, there is no way to know if it is faulty, whether that be a bad crack or a damaged adf/image!


You know what would be useful.. A tool that would examine all files and display the differences as hex or similar, this way we could determine if the disk structure was different, or the adf had been modified or if it was just simply a highscore!

On amiga I used a prog called CMP which would hex compare 2 files and allow you to jump to the differences.. Does anything similar exist for winblows?

[oneshotdead]

Their list of games is bloated beyond sanity thanks to several versions for each and every game. Each game should have only ONE representation: the one that _bloody well works_ (i.e., has no bugs, can be played from beginning to end).

The others should be relegated to some optional list, for those who, for the reasons eLowar stated, are interested in alternatives, for whatever reason.

e.g.,

"Oh, I can't wait to play that bugged version of Xenon 2, that doesn't let me get past the Level 3 BBEG."

[DamienD]

Their list of games is bloated beyond sanity thanks to several versions for each and every game. Each game should have only ONE representation: the one that _bloody well works_ (i.e., has no bugs, can be played from beginning to end).

The others should be relegated to some optional list, for those who, for the reasons eLowar stated, are interested in alternatives, for whatever reason.
Of course this would be awesome in a perfect world but it's impossible to tell if an .ADF is 100% working from start to finish without some serious effort... Takes a lot of time / commitment if this is to ever be accomplished. This is what GameBase Amiga (http://gbamiga.elowar.com/) sets out to achieve...

Trust me I know, I've played / tested all versions of 2 games extensively in order to make sure they are absolutely 100% working:

... Another World... (http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=23714)
... Fixing Flashback versions.. Ongoing.. (http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=22738)

Took me a few weeks... Now multiply that by 2500+ games to get a grip on the scale of things :blased

No offence intended but instead of complaining and theorising about how things should be, what are you actively doing to assist? I'm positive that TOSECS and GameBase Amiga could use all the volunteers they can get :agree

[oneshotdead]

I believe I have already contributed by stating that no single version of Arkanoid on that website runs at authentic speed on WinUAE with any degree of consistency.

Unless someone can solve this _emulation_ problem, in all honesty the versions might as well be removed entirely for exactly that reason, since only a fool, madman or masochist would enjoy playing them at such an unfair speed.

There should simply be a message along the lines of:

"We will not disappoint original fans of this game by providing ADFs of it which run unfairly fast on WinUAE".


By the way, Arkanoid 2 WHDLoad (and probably the ADFs as well) runs at authentic speed. But I don't like Arkanoid 2; I like Arkanoid 1.

[eLowar]

Unless someone can solve this _emulation_ problem, in all honesty the versions might as well be removed entirely for exactly that reason, since only a fool, madman or masochist would enjoy playing them at such an unfair speed.

There should simply be a message along the lines of:

"We will not disappoint original fans of this game by providing ADFs of it which run unfairly fast on WinUAE".

You realize of course that while emulators will improve, it may be impossible to get new disk images in the future, when floppies have died silently and nobody kept the images that weren't emulated perfectly yet. Besides the fact that ADF images can easily be written back to real floppies and played on a real Amiga, while it may be hard to get a hold of originals of everything these days.

[oneshotdead]

eLowar wrote: You realize of course that while emulators will improve, it may be impossible to get new disk images in the future, when floppies have died silently and nobody kept the images that weren't emulated perfectly yet.

Hopefully, WinUAE will improve so that it can run even a basic game such as Arkanoid at authentic speed. Or, if it already can, hopefully someone can supply their config of WinUAE in which they were able to run Arkanoid at authentic speed. Otherwise, I see Arkanoid and emulation as mutually-exclusive.

eLowar wrote: Besides the fact that ADF images can easily be written back to real floppies and played on a real Amiga, while it may be hard to get a hold of originals of everything these days.

Point taken. But I wonder how many download Arkanoid ADFs for emulation as opposed to Arkanoid ADFs for The Real Thing.

Either way, this thread is about the inconsistent and inauthentic ball speed of Arkanoid under WinUAE.

[T_hairy_bootson]

Unless someone can solve this _emulation_ problem, in all honesty the versions might as well be removed entirely for exactly that reason, since only a fool, madman or masochist would enjoy playing them at such an unfair speed.


Maybe it doesnt work in the current version of winuae but works on other emulators, maybe it will work in the next version of winuae, maybe it works fine on real amigas, maybe etc.... what you are suggesting is that every adf in the tosec set is removed tested and then re-added after every revision of winuae. And seperate sets are made for every real amiga configuration and every alternative amiga emulator. Thats a lot of testing and seperating. Who is going to have all that time to do all that? Only a madman a fool or a masochist thats who. ;)

Hopefully, WinUAE will improve so that it can run even a basic game such as Arkanoid at authentic speed.

:rolleyes

[eLowar]

Hopefully, WinUAE will improve so that it can run even a basic game such as Arkanoid at authentic speed.

"Basic" is very subjective. It has simple game play, that doesn't mean it can't use nasty tricks or undocumented features internally or just plain be badly programmed.

Edit: Either way, jotd seems to be planning on investigating the problem, so there may be hope for Arkanoid yet.

[oneshotdead]

WinFellow's attempt at emulating Arkanoid is also abysmal. Anyway, if jotd can resolve this issue, I believe my mental health would improve dramatically, since playing Arkanoid 2: Revenge of "D'oh" as an unsuccessful compensator is really grinding on my nerves.

[Toni Wilen]

This is soo confusing thread..

- if this is about whdload working too fast -> I don't care. Failed research before complaining error.

- if this is about disk images working too fast with most compatible quickstart AND they work correctly on real Amiga -> Perhaps I will care about it..

[jotd]

This is soo confusing thread..

- if this is about whdload working too fast -> I don't care. Failed research before complaining error.

- if this is about disk images working too fast with most compatible quickstart AND they work correctly on real Amiga -> Perhaps I will care about it..

I think WinUAE runs so fast (specially in chip memory, when using JIT) compared to the most powerful amiga that new problems arise when using already fixed WHDLoad games. But it remains damn rare.

[Toni Wilen]

I think WinUAE runs so fast (specially in chip memory, when using JIT) compared to the most powerful amiga that new problems arise when using already fixed WHDLoad games. But it remains damn rare.

Yeah, the most common reason. It is "fun", "they" want WinUAE to be compatible and at the same time very very fast.. does not compute :)

[eLowar]

- if this is about disk images working too fast with most compatible quickstart AND they work correctly on real Amiga -> Perhaps I will care about it..

Hokay well, see the WHDLoad, SPS and ADF configurations I attached to Post #15 above (352269). They all run at roughly the same speed (they're all NTSC versions, although the ADF according to recent TOSEC has some sort of PAL fix, but the configuration is for NTSC and it works), which does admittedly feel very fast, I don't have access to a real Amiga to compare though. The ball starts at what seems like a reasonable speed (but faster than in Arkanoid 2, in case that's any indicator) and speeds up very fast (again, much faster than Arkanoid 2) to what seems like a very unreasonable speed (again, Arkanoid 2 never seems to get quite as fast; since I don't have the means to test on a real Amiga those may just be intentional differences in the two games though).

I've just played the PAL and NTSC SPS versions again with most compatible quick start (plus cycle exact, the games won't start beyond the title screen otherwise; the configs from GameBase Amiga I posted before do not exactly match this configuration, but are close) side by side in WinUAE. The NTSC versions run exactly as fast as with the configurations I posted before. The PAL version is definitely more playable (than the NTSC version; none of the configs before deal with any PAL version), the ball does also get pretty fast, but it feels like it might be normal (pending comparison with a real Amiga), albeit rather hard. :)

That's all I can say. I recommend those who think it runs too fast try the PAL version (e.g. SPS 954; NTSC versions are much more common among cracked disks) and see if that feels more right.

[eLowar]

Maybe some global mod (*glares at DamienD*) can split that part (MAME discussion) into a new thread in Retrogaming General Discussion.

[DamienD]

Maybe some global mod (*glares at DamienD*) can split that part (MAME discussion) into a new thread in Retrogaming General Discussion.
All Arkanoid - MAME discussion moved here: Arkanoid - MAME (http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?p=352998) ;)