The upcoming EAB's Database

[RCK]

18 of November 2001:

the AGD is now near completition,
the beta-test withing the main moderator is going well.

expect one public release at the end of the year ? :cool

wait & see.

[Burge]

Count me in, don't know if i'd be of much help though. Maybe some dates of release and obscure Australian game names and a few screen shots, but that's about it. Sorry :)

[LaundroMat]

Excellent idea for the thread.

Now, why do I say maybe? Just because I don't have think I'll have anything new to contribute. But you never know ofcourse...

In any case, here are some little remarks (and be warned, they're of a very nitpicky quality :)):

It's company, not compagny (in the table Games, and as an own table name).
What's doskpop?
It's ambient, instead of ambiante.


Games categories:
First Person Shooter (Alien Breed 3D, etc)
Racer

// RCK:
// Sorry I forgot to reply you: Doskpop is one of the best style of Amiga Classic, invented by LizardKing. more on it when the website will be done :)

[Warlock99]

Although I can appreciate individual databases. Most people don't realise the enormity of the task. I've thought about this type of project loads of time myself, but have been put off by the sheer size of the undertaking. I have a pretty big collection and from this I think it would take many years and years for an individual to complete (maybe all of his life). How many games would you estimate exist?

C'mon guys, lets use the internet in the way it should be used, everybody contributing and helping to make a good project work. If we could get a large team together as well as having other people contributing on the web, we could have a really good database in a fraction of the time.

Of course, if people are contributing, through the web, then the accuracy and quality of the database needs to be monitored, so the team needs some sort of team of moderators, otherwise we'd end up with a totally useless database of inaccurate facts. Any offers?

I can think of someone, who would be perfect for the job, but I think he's working on his own from what I remember reading elsewhere.

The idea about the reviewers was good from zeewolf. Maybe have mini reviews from three different people showing different viewpoint, a bit like zzap 64 used to do.

As for other databases, I'm pretty sure they could be merged into this one. I think this would be a great way to start it off, but this might depend on permission from their authors. How about contacting amiga active and any other amiga mags to encourage amiga readers to go on the webpage. This project could really grow if we wanted...

Maybe as well as a text file it would be possible to generate a web page for each game from the information. I think each game would need a webpage for itself to get all those details in. Of course an index would also need to be generated and a fair bit of webspace for it all to work.

God, I'd love for this all to be possible, just imagine such a massive project llike this actually working...

Sorry, to have waffled on, but I'm starting to drool now, so I'll leave it here....

[Akira]

OK, lemme give my input ;)

I think that ANYTHING, to work, needs to be focused. You have to focus to make this database.

Thus, I think the idea of including mods, and everything else that it's not software it's arse. Even demos.

First, Big task. Too much stuff to cover.

Second, there are people who are more dedicated into this. Good example is Exotica, with mods, and Back 2 the Roots has a similar database system going on. Why make what is already out there in some form? Innovate, be original, don't do 'me too stuff'. These matters are key to me.

If you focus like this, you remove unnecessary stuff from the database, thus easing the updating job and make it more cool. You have enough Amiga software to last you a lifetime (games and utilities, commercial, shareware, freeware, F1 licenseware, coverdisks.... now try to make a list of that!)

I think that if you widespan the database so much, it would end up having too much innacurate data, or llots of empty spots, thus being shite. If you focus it I'd be glad to contribute.

I think that if you make a database of Amiga software ONLY, you could be succesful in getting it to a great level of complexity. If you widespread it as it stands now, it will prolly fail and be 'another one'.

My 0.02

[Warlock99]

I agree and I also think that utils and apps should be left out unless they're games related. After all we want our goal to be achievable and apps and utils are appearing daily on aminet.

I'm only really interested in games on the amiga.

[Akira]

New games appear daily on teh Aminet too, so we should leave them out as well?

Apps MUST be put in the database. What I say is make a complete SOFTWARE database. Ok, it might include demos, since they are software. However do not put data as artists, mods, softcos, whatever. Sure, put softco info in the game entry, but don't make a list of softcos. You know what I mean? :)

Personally I am not interested in Amiga games only. The Amiga is FAR MORE than a games machine, and this is a FACT a lot of people never discovered, even today.\

I think the goal of teh database si to be damned complete (that explains why RCK added so many fields), but I thik taht with a little focus, it is achievable. It won't be a one-man effort anyway, so I bet you can et a pertty darn nice list in a year.

[Warlock99]

Well, I agree the amiga is far more than a games machine, any computer is by it's very nature and the amiga is certainly adept at many other things. That's not what I said, though, all I said is that I'm only interested in games on the amiga, not, that's all I was ever interested in. I've programmed, word-processed, created music and numerous other things on the amiga in my time. But my interest in the amiga now is purely as a games machine.

I woudn't personally find any enjoyment in trawling through a list of utils.

But, if it is to be complete it should have demos as well then. After all demos are software. I don't think by doing a few demos we are losing focus to be honest, if we're doing 10 of thousands of utils, then what's the difference in a few thousand demos as well.

[Akira]

That's what I just said ;) Add demos :) But they are a paerticular kind of thing, they are not interactive, not all of them anyway. Just eyecandy.

However, you don't have to crawl thru a list of utils. Since this is an online database, it has all the facilities of any SQL database, so you can make it just show games, and not waste valuable time.

If you can filter, then why am I against widespreading it? Because an increased size would slow it to a crawl, mainly. And because I think focus is necessary :)

[CodyJarrett]

As Warlock says, accuracy is a big problem!

For example, a well-meaning person might notice that Dragon Breed says 'Copyright Irem 1989' on the title and put the year of release down as 1989, not realising that this is the date of the arcade machine, not the Amiga game (which is 1990). Now you have an incorrect date.

Then you have to further break down the parties involved in making Dragon Breed - Irem (original arcade), Activision (publisher), Arc Developments (conversion), Software Studios (production). This is pretty much spelt out on the titlescreen, but usually this isn't the case.

Another example - in a similar arcade conversion, Atomic Robo-Kid, the titlescreen says that it was done in association with Marjacq Micros. Someone might put this down as a developer or publisher, when it is really a company that specialises in doing things like acquiring licences for other companies - nothing to do with the creation of the game.

I don't know how many times I've downloaded an ADF off the Internet, only to find that it is something different or not what the filename suggested. It's easy to put something on the Internet - people are not bothered about accuracy.

There may also be a lack of standardisation.

However, a large number of people will make the task much easier! And user-contributions work okay for the Internet Movie Database.

[Warlock99]

Whatever the majority decide is fine with me. Maybe a vote would help!

[Akira]

Cody, you just emphasize the need for trimming down the database ;) I rather have an accurate little database taht covers just software, than a big load of useless data.

Submissions to the database shouldn't be done by anyone either methinks. Troddlers might fill in with crap. A login should be neded to fill data IMO.

[Warlock99]

Who said software had to be interactive, look at FMV games, most of them are barely even games.

Sorry I couldn't resist that!

[Akira]

Dragon's Lair et al are shite, which should not be considered games. But let's not get into this, we're heading off track ;)

[Warlock99]

OK - truce akira.

Well, let's just say if we did have user contributions, is there a way we could ensure accuracy? How does that internet movie database work?

[Akira]

We cannot assure 100% accuracy, but we can edit them later anyway.

[Warlock99]

What do you think about merging existing databases/lists and then adding to them and editing them, after all there's no point re-inventing the wheel? I say edit because information would still need to be checked, obviously.

It would be cool if duplicate records could be filtered out or merged together or something?

[Akira]

I think that would be good, why not use what's already out there as a base? However this all goes against my ' anti-me too' policy ;) but it ain't my database, so be it.

[RCK]

I spoke about Mods & Demos only for the EAB's upcoming ModPlug jukebox. sorry for the confusion !

About the database, Let's focus on Software.
so only Games and Apps ?

(check out #revision3)


And for the database public update, one solution may be that public can post his review / new screenshot / etc ...
but this new information must be validated by one of the "Database Moderator" (like Us) before the posting.

Validation should be very easy, you will just have to read the new information and click on "OK" :)

[Akira]

the Validation module should also allow modification to the data to be validated. Otherwise you'd end up deleting stuff that might be useful.

I am still against public posts. A lot of work for moderators if someones sees fit to fill in with garbage, or if there is someone excited to make entries but who doesn't know shit about what he's writing.

I'd say a login is needed. Just ask for email and verify the addy. Once verification is done he could start posting data onto the database.

[RCK]

I think you are right,
but if only moderators can update the base, it will be slower to fill no ?

(yes, slow but perfect ;))

I think about people who like to contribute with little things like a few screenshots, or just one or two informations... they maybe don't wan't to be *moderators*.
So the public post should be enable no ?
(controled & modified if necessary by moderators)

(those kind of new informations won't be include to the database without have been validated)

[Warlock99]

Yeah, if we want this project to work, I think we need to allow other people to contribute. As RCK says the entries won't be put into the database until moderated anyway. That's the whole point of the moderators.

If only a few select people are doing this, we're back to square one and looking at a database in 10 years time. With applications and games, this database is going to be an absolutely mamoth task.

I honestly think the database will benefit from outside help. I think we'll discover information and lots more games that we didn't know about, I also think outside contributions will add to the richness of the database.

Come on, we can make this mamoth database, but only with outside help! The team of moderators will need to really know their stuff.

Also, if we provide some sort of guidance on the form about each field of the record, then maybe we can eliminate half the errors.

I don't really see how the login is going to help make anything easier in fact it could put people off. We need to make it easy otherwise, people simply won't bother.

[RCK]

agree,
I'll start coding it this week-end, upcoming moderators will have access to beta aera as soon as possible :)

about all the informations of the database, no need more ?
are you all ok with the #revision 4 ?

[RCK]

about screenshots, let's fix it:

I think that 320*240*16M in PNG format is a good compromize between quality and size.

Using Emulator in 640*480*32-bit (take screenshot), then resize it to 320*240 and encode it to PNG is the best solution.


Take a look at this 57Ko PNG file of Sanity - Interference.

Two screenshots by production is a good value.

[Warlock99]

Languages - Italian and polish games are everywhere

Types - Beat-em-ups, Arcade strategy (such as syndicate), arcade adventure (head over heels etc), board games, puzzle (tetris), quiz, 3d shoot-em-ups, flight sims, rpg, sports. I think there's more too.

[Warlock99]

BTW - Picture looks fine to me.

[RCK]

Okay, I've updated the game's type, and I think we should not add more.

about the row - Configuration*, do you think it is really important ?
(we won't try again all database games for each new emulator)

[Warlock99]

I don't think it's really needed either and it's easy for a visitor to just try each configuration for their game. But, I don't suppose it'd be absolutely necessary for it to be filled in for every game.

Will we allow visitors to just give us partial information for a game?

[RCK]

Ok, config removed.

Of course visitor will be able to submit us partial infomation !
(like one new review or a single screenshot)

I think we will allow multiple review.
(but not too much also, only the 3 best)

[Warlock99]

RCK, if you're starting the programming then I'll trim my list. It should give us a damn good starting point for the games list. The list will just be names of games and nothing else to start with. Then maybe, I'll try and get info from other sources afterwards such as databases, lists, etc.

Does someone want to make a start on the apps list?

[P-J]

Hey guys, count me in....

Can someone give me a general synopsis of the format/whats happening, so I haven't got to read all those threads :)

BTW, have you any idea of the size of space required to store this amount data WITH screenshots?

...don't start without me... fill me in :)

PJ.

[Jambo]

Sounds interesting :)

If you need any help with any of the coding RCK I'd be more than happy to help out.

Thanks
James Thomas

[RCK]

yes, I've already count the amount of data required.

arround 50 Ko for each screenshots.
so arround 100 Ko for each games.

1000 games -> 100.000 Ko (100 Mo)

hum ... maybe only one screenshot by games / apps will be enough no ?


btw: hey PJ big lazy ! please read all the post ;)

[Akira]

STOP!!!

You are about to completely SCREW UP the pictures!! take a moment to think, that the Amiga's lo-res resolution is 320x256 , not 320x240.

You will completely corrupt the screens' aspect ratio, or even cut a border.

Unluckily, Amiga emulators suck for taking screenshots. Unlike any decent emulator, where no matter what screen res you are using you have an option to take ascreenshot of the correct resolution and aspect ratio, you have to do shitty stuff with Amiga emus to get a decent screenshot.

[RCK]

But there is a way to have one correct screen ratio with WinUAE 08.14 R3.

btw, we decrease the size by 50% after, so pixel will merge themself a little.
the important point is to have one good start ratio.

take look back at the pic of Sanity a few post ago, we haven't loose any pixel on it.

[P-J]

Just run WinUAE in super fast 'sound disabled' mode in a Window @ 320 x 256 and use PSP to capture the image.

With PSP I'm able to grab just the actual picture out of a window with one click, and end up witha clean 320 x 256 minutes. I can get up to 60 screenshots an hour with this method...

[RCK]

Yes, your method is quite good, but the screenshot take also winuae border, so we have to cut the zone 320*256 for each production ...

btw, could you post the exact setting you use for screenshot ?
(just the graphic one)

[Akira]

Man, RCK, look at that pic. It's ANTIALIASED! you killed ALL the pixels.

PJ's method is DA BOMB and is the best way. Besides, with PSP, you can choose to capture an object, thus leaving OUT the window border [as he mentions]

A bit of cropping wouldn't do anyone harm anyway, lazy peeps ;)

Do not snap at 640x480 and resample. you are killing the images. If you don't mind killing images, snap them at 160x80 or something like that and save on disk space ;p

[RCK]

Well, you're right ;)

but I still have prb to see all the pixel :) (perfect ratio screensize)
what about the exact WinUae setting are you using ?

[Akira]

I barely ever use WinUAE, or any other emu, unless I want to take screenshots. I use to take them with WinFellow, but then I have to rework them a bit to take them back to their proper aspect ratio.

iIn WinUAE, do just as PJ said: 320x256 windowed mode. If the game uses higher resolution graphics, you will have to change the resolution.

Best option still is 800x600, no stretching, scanlines or anything, and then cropping the image by hand. That way even if teh program uses interlace/super hires/overscan, you still get the whole picture

[Warlock99]

I've managed to sort out a list from 0-B (788 games so far on the list). The list is just the names of the games at the moment. If you want me to add any other games for 0-B then please email me:

vlnw30101@cableinet.co.uk

Also, if you want to email me any lists etc then this will definitely help me compile a decent list to start this database with.

I wasn't sure whether we need a line for each version (AGA, ECS, OCS, CD32) etc. Or will the database simply have checkboxes for each version that has exists? Can you tell me RCK?

Is anybody out there starting a list of apps?

[Khephren]

RCK

If you want someone to organise the Mods and Demos section then I'd help out. I got a more extensive knowledge of demos/mods than I have on games.

[Akira]

Weren't mods removed off the database? Dunno about Demos.

[Warlock99]

I think demos were too. RCK?

[RCK]

Demos and Mods were removed from The Amiga Database, just check the latest revision in the first post of this thread.

However, there will be one Mod Jukebox soon, with the best of all retro-gaming mods, so you could help me soon on this Khephren.


I wasn't sure whether we need a line for each version (AGA, ECS, OCS, CD32) etc. Or will the database simply have checkboxes for each version that has exists? Can you tell me RCK?


as you want...
is there many different version (ECS, AGA) for one same game ?
and about the HD version of certain game ? Will we considered them as new game, with new review or not ?

ps: the dev is going well, hope first beta test soon.

[Warlock99]

BTW. Do you mind if I mention the database on my site? What do you think of telling vintagegaming etc about our plans?

[Warlock99]

I think hd versions are always the same, as far as I can think. So probably not worth it for these. The only difference would be the speed of accessing the game, which is across the board.

Are we having scores for each game for graphic, sound, playability etc.

Maybe one line for each version because graphics and sometimes sound varies, even playability etc, unless we just make sure that when a game with different versions is reviewed, that all versions are compared. I don't know, what does everyone else think.

Sorry RCK. I started a new thread by mistake, can you delete it for me, ta!

[RCK]

About "public" annoucement of this project,
It'll be done WHEN the project will be really working for public,
not before please.
(with moderator operationnal, etc ...)

About Linking the DataBase or the EAB, we will do a couple of banners. So no prb for linking.

I'm not sure that having score is a really good idea...
cause everybody have different opinions for each games.

I think that different review for one game is much better than classic 9/10 :)

If a game is really different for each version ( HD / AGA ), so we should reference it twice.

[RCK]

Same problem with language, I don't think we will do 4 differents entry in the Database for one game who had been converted to 4 differents languages.
This game will just have 4 little flags. (for each language supported)

agree ?

[CodyJarrett]

The following should all be different entries:

Simon The Sorceror ECS
Simon The Sorceror AGA
Simon The Sorceror CD32 AGA

However, different languages and HD versions shouldn't mean a new entry.

[RCK]

Agree, but this mean different review no ?

[Warlock99]

Maybe we could have one line but have the different versions within that entry?

There's definitely games that are quite different between versions i.e. brian the lion, zool 2 usually though it's just extra graphics, sound, an animation, or a bit of a speed increase. Maybe for each game we could have fields like this:-

ECS enhancements
1200 enhancements
CD32 enhancements

and just add a line of text in each field. These wouldn't become active unless aga, ecs or cd32 was ticked first though.

RCK, I think it's your decision? Which way is best?

[CodyJarrett]

As there is usually little different between ECS, AGA and CD32 versions, apart from better graphics or an intro, each review will probably end up being the same...

[RCK]

Here is the best way I think.

- Simon The Sorceror - ( ECS / AGA / CD32AGA ) on one line.

and extended fields like warlock said to describe the main differences between the base version. Of course, cause we can now have a lot of review for each game, those difference can be best described in one second review also.

so one game / line, with all details (for all version) of this game when you click on it.

#revision updated.

[Warlock99]

I suppose we need OCS, to show if that version exists.

[Tim Janssen]

Hmm, forgive me for interferring this long thread, but I have also some suggestions/ ideas.

Games have appeared on OCS, AGA, CD32 AGA but also on CDTV! Remember Hound of the Baskervilles, Case of the Cautious Condor, Sherlock Holmes Consulting Detective and
Prey? These are CDTV specific titles.

Second, I have some minor suggestions for information you can add to a game:
[list=a]
Number of players
Number of discs
Kickstart version
[/list=a]

[Warlock99]

Geez, I'd forgotten about CDTV.

Interfere all you want mate, that goes for anyone else. We need all the help we can get.

Yeah, I think all your points are quite valid. Bit of an oversight on our part actually.

Your call RCK?

[CodyJarrett]

Also, a game won't necessarily be both CD32 and AGA. It could be CD32 and ECS and perhaps CD32 and OCS (IK+ maybe?).

[Tim Janssen]

Another question is how far a list of compatible machines go:
Remember the game Labyrinth of Time by Electronic Arts? This game is published in 1994 for CD32 but also runs on CDTV. In the gamesdatabase I would say the game is 'intended' to run only on CD32. In the review (or comments) I would also say the game will run on CDTV too.
Geez, I am getting dizzy:eek

[RCK]

Well, for that game you will have CD32 & CDTV activated.
In "difference_version" you will have the main difference between the two versions
And if you want, you can make two different review.

my question is:
If there some game with exist on different hardware... they won't use the same kickstart !! and the number of player can be modified ! also the number of disks ... (could we count an Hd install with a number of disk ?).

Finally, maybe the idea of three differents entry for three version of one same game is a good idea no ?
in these case, one same review could be linked for all prod.
and the "difference_version" will leave.

[Akira]

I just read a message from Mangar on another board, and it seems he is STILL working on his CAFE database!

Why not try and merge powers? I think the best way for a really good Amiga database to be achieved, is by everybody joining forces.

Try and email him. His project is something similar to Gamebase64 but his database surely is big by now, perhaps you guys could all work together. [link: http://www.hitoro.com]

[Warlock99]

I think everyone is getting confused here. Is this any better:-


1. You could just have a tick box for whether an hd install exists if you really wanted. HD installs shouldn't be included as seperate games though.

2. Maybe the kickstart isn't important after all, if you know a game is OCS then it's obvious it's 500 etc. I think just have tick boxes for OCS, ECS, AGA, CD32, CDTV or if you prefer 500, 500+, 600, 1200, CD32 and CDTV. This is showing what amiga's it works on as opposed to what it's intended for.

3. So, labyrinth of time would have cd32 and cdtv ticked and have labyrinth of time cd32 as the title, to show which version it is intended for. 1200 games should have AGA in the title and similar for ECS. OCS games are the default type of game so no mention is necessary in the title. This is showing the intended platform.

4. What about PPC. PPC games are out now, so I think this should definitely be included. What about 030, 040, 060 amiga's. Should we have a tick to show whether it works on these too.

5. And about disks, you need to have a media type for CD-ROM and disks. Because 1200 CD games exist that won't work on cd32, so it wouldn't be obvious.

[Warlock99]

We need to show different versions in title too if there are others. So simon sorceror CD32/AGA/OCS - to show there are three versions. If as an example the cd32 version worked on cdtv (i'm pretty sure it wouldn't) then it'd be ticked within that record and it'd be obvious it must be the cd32 one (the only one on cd). It could be mentioned as code jarrett was saying within the review to clarify it.

Or shall we just have different lines to make it easier? It's getting a bit complicated.

[Warlock99]

I think we would have to have different lines otherwise the disk numbers would be wrong i.e some aga versions have more disks than the ecs one.

[Warlock99]

Attached is the latest game list - 0-F totalling 1915 games so far. Not even half way yet, so we're not doing too bad. I haven't implemented the cd32\aga\ecs thing yet, not sure what we've decided.

Please email me if you can see a game missing.

vlnw30101@cableinet.co.uk

Does anybody want to check the list for spelling mistakes etc. I'm going cross-eyed looking at it, at the moment.

[RCK]

CD32 / ESC / AGA games will be implemented.
but please make one list txt file for each type of game !

the database structure is near to be finished :)

last modification:
- HD installation will only be an option for each prod (yes or no)
- If a game exist in different format (ex: simon), there will be one entry in the database for each version. (the hardware type change), so number of disk and review can change also.
- no more "Different version" field

If you think to update something else, it's the moment !
check the last revision !


I don't know PPC games... what kind of hardware do we need for that ?

[Akira]

Yor brought quite some point there RCK.. specs... A lot of games don't just need 'AGA, 2MB and HD', for example. Specially newer games. One might think that saying that it is a PPC game is enough, but it surely isn't.

This brings me to the conclusion that this info should not be included in the database. What to include? These is one suggestion:

OCS/ECS/AGA/PPC

That's it? Yes. These would join most games in a common category. If the game doesn't run in your machine with a certain number of megs, or if you dont have CGX, whatever man, find that out for yourself, dont be thick. I know PPC is not a chipset, but it is the best way to englobe all the PPC games.

Again, I bring the point of the focus. What is really the focus? Chuck as much info as possible on each entry, or having the most complete list of Amiga games? I think you should define this first before doing anything.

If you englobe the games among the above base categories, and perhaps say which kickstart they run in, you are set. Maybe you can include the memory reqs, but I wouldn't give a rats ass.

My 0.02 (ok, I think I sum up to 2.36 now :))

[Warlock99]

I must admit I don't know much about PPC, except that there are some games out there. Doesn't anybody know?

I suppose you could just have a PPC category and any other details could be mentioned in the review.

I think we should have thought more about the fields before RCK started working on it, cause it must be a pain for us to come up with more all the time. Or is it easy?

Other fields have sprung to mind, such as required memory, hd space required? But, maybe these details can be included in the review.

The problem is, a database is only as good as the information in it? A list in it's self is not the whole point surely?

BTW - About the list, I'm on the letter S, and the list currently has 4500 games, good eh? I might finish it today or tomorrow. The list should be a good indication of the size. Of course a lot of PD games exist too, of which I have included only a few of so far. Do you have enough webspace by the way?

[RCK]

Originally posted by Akira
This brings me to the conclusion that this info should not be included in the database. What to include? These is one suggestion:

OCS/ECS/AGA/PPC


okay. and what about CD32 or CDTV ?
maybe we can add them as "option to check or not", like HD installation.


Again, I bring the point of the focus. What is really the focus? Chuck as much info as possible on each entry, or having the most complete list of Amiga games? I think you should define this first before doing anything.


That's why we are trying to do right now :)


If you englobe the games among the above base categories, and perhaps say which kickstart they run in, you are set. Maybe you can include the memory reqs, but I wouldn't give a rats ass.


Kickstarts ...
yes, no, yes, no , need more opinion on this point :)

[CodyJarrett]

The list so far is a mix of half PD/shareware/freeware and half commercial. Is this wise?

[RCK]

arg...
very good point cody.
must add one games type now ;)

hey warlock ! try to separate this also :D (5 files)

- commercial
- public domain
- shareware
- freeware
if you don't know, do a special list "- don't know"

and in each type, we have different kind of hardware type.
(depending on the release)

> ECS
> OCS
> AGA
> PPC

> CD32 AGA ?
> CDTV ?

[LaundroMat]

Wouldn't a field like 'Minimum requirements' do the trick?

I mean, AGA games will only run on an AGA machine (obviously) or above. OCS will run on any machine. PPC games (dunno much about them either) could require an xx Mhz PPC and xxMb of memory.

And it would be interesting to see the platform in the title as well (eg Simon CD32, Zool 2 AGA, etc).

[LaundroMat]

The list so far is a mix of half PD/shareware/freeware and half commercial.

Err, what is half-commercial? I mean, what's the difference with the other categories?

[CodyJarrett]

I meant that half of the list was commercial games and half of the list was shareware/freeware/licenceware/PD etc.

I estimate that there are between 3,000 and 3,500 commercial games on the Amiga (probably).

[RCK]

half commercial ? wahaha, no, i just think he want to speak about commercial game ;)

Yes, the field hardware is the same as "minimal requirements"
and you will see it near the name of the game (like many other things ;))

[LaundroMat]

Sorry. I should have read that post better. But I'm at work here you know... :sleep

[Akira]

Ok, I will refine a bit what I Wrote (it was late, you know :) I completely forgot CD32, so it should be added. MOst, if not all, CDTV software can be run by any Amiga with a cd drive, so I wouldn't consider it as an extra category.

walock, I dont think more fileds shold be added. What I tried to say is that there should be LESS fields :) MInimum Requirements doesn't sound like a field with a point, I'd completely scratch it.

Again, RCK, what is the dbase's focus? lots of info on each entry, or the bigger list of Amiga games possible?

Commercial/shareware/F1 licenseware/fereware etc. should be included, methinks. Could be in a ' License' field

[Gibby]

I'd deffinately be up for writing reviews of CD32 games. I have a large collection of games for that particullar failed console and I still fire it up to play Guardian and Roadkill most nights.

[Warlock99]

What I'll do for now is just get the full list finished and then maybe we can split the work of dividing it into PD and commercial and then into OCS,ECS, AGA,CD32 between us. Does that sound OK for now? I think I'd need some help with this part.

I'll update the list soon...

[RCK]

Okay all, I have Rebuild the database in order to focus more like akira said, extra info should be found in the review.

we want to build the " bigger list of Amiga games " or not ? ;)

If you think I have missed something important, just tell it, and we will make discussion and poll.

Check the Dababase here (http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?threadid=277)

[Warlock99]

Do you think anybody cares whether a game is licenceware / shareware/ freeware?

I think this all should be under one field

Public domain (freeware\licenceware\shareware)

This is enough surely? Does anybody think otherwise or have a reason why this shouldn't be the case.

I think pd games should be included in one way or another though because some are really good.

[Akira]

Licenseware games are semi-commercial, really. Were sold at budget prices, and were published, unlike freeware/shareware soft. They were not freely distributable, then.

[RCK]

. Public Domain covered "freeware / shareware & PD"
. Commercial covered "Lisenceware"

Any others idea for apps category than :
> Audio
> Gfx
> Net
> Utils
> Programs

?

[Warlock99]

Yeah, that sounds fine RCK about the commercial and PD.

Programs and utils are too wide for types. They need splitting down.

A program could be anything, in fact that should be the name of that list because an application in my eyes are things like word processors, databases, spreadsheets.

I've just looked at an online computer dictionary(http://www.charm.net/~kmarsh/dict.html) and it defines an application as:

A software program or system of programs designed to fulfill a specific user requirement. Categories of applications include Spreadsheets for bookkeeping, Word Processors for documents, and Databases for recordkeeping.

This seems to confirm my thoughts. Sorry, just for accuracy sake.

[RCK]

Oki, i have inverted :)

"Programs"

> Audio
> Gfx
> Net
> Utility
> Application

no more item for the programs ?

[Warlock99]

Right, I've completed the list. With a grand total 5729 games on it.

Right the list needs splitting up. RCK, is this necessary? Won't the fields that you mentioned already (commercial and PD) and (aga/ecs/ocs/cd32) separate the types of games up anyway, as people submit their bits of information.

It's just that I think it will take a long long time for this list to be split up in this manner, surely this is what we're trying to avoid in the first place? I'm pretty sure I could sort out most of the cd32/aga stuff. Not sure about the rest though.

I will obviously contribute to sorting out this when the database becomes active, but I think help from everyone will be essential, after all that was the whole idea wasn't it?

If you preferred we could have some period of time, where we the developers can work on this, before making it open to the public. What do you think?

I've attached the list anyway?

[RCK]

I think that you are right :) no need to split the list.

This list will be the starting point, then everybody will be able to submit update.

The launch for moderators and beta test is shredulled in about one week (or maybe less)

The launch for public later.


The Design of all website is now finish (95%), and it really rocks :)
Wait & See, you will love it ;)

[Warlock99]

Great! Can't wait to see what you've done!

[CodyJarrett]

Watch out for duplicates in the Mammoth list. So far, I've seen the following in twice:

4 Get-It
Alien 3
Alien Hunter
Alien Legion
Alien World
Amiga Karate
Arcade Pool
Ballistic Diplomacy
Battle Command
Beach Volley
Brutal Paws Of Fury
Castle Warrior
Centre Court Tennis
Champions Of Dawn
Chaos Engine
Chess Champion 2175
Colonization
Crash Landing

Also, do you need all those Assassins Disks in the list?

[Warlock99]

Thanks code jarrett!

I was going to say that I need to get rid of some duplicates! Is that all of them or are there more?

I was hoping somebody would check it all for me?

I think it would be good to review the assassin disks, don't you?

[CodyJarrett]

I only looked quickly - I'll check the rest of the alphabet and then when the obvious ones are gone, I'll do a more thorough check.

Do you include all compilations or just the Assassins ones? Do you also include pirate compilations, like Astronut's disks? Aren't the games on the disks more important?

[RCK]

Yep, the games on the compilation are the most important.
no need to have one game like : "Assassins Games Pack #82", but rather - Artillerous ESC / - Shuffle Run ESC / - Arcade Volleyball ESC.

[Warlock99]

Yes, I agree but, does anybody have a list of the games on the assassin disks that we could merge it together with? Save me going through all 250 of them. Or does somebody want to split the job with me?

[RCK]

all the list is on http://www.commodore-ale.com :)

I'm working hard on the website, I actually can't really help you to sort the list.

[Warlock99]

I didn't mean you RCK. Thanks for telling me about the list though!

[Warlock99]

I've emailed mangar who is involved in the CAFE project which is a database like ours, but is program-based rather than web-based.

Just so everyone knows the score and understands the situation, this is my email to him after I had initially spoke to him on his forum when he'd asked about our project:-

What we are trying to do is a web-based database. Where visitors can submit information/reviews for a game by filling in a very simple online form. The list of game is nearly 6000 games but more can be added. The list is basically just that and we're relying on amiga enthusiasts to fill in the rest of the information. The database will be maintained by a group of moderators who moderate the information/reviews being sent in to check for accuracy. The good thing about this approach in our eyes is that the list can grow very fast in theory and it uses the massive user-base of the internet in a really useful way. If you think about the amount of time it's going to take one person to make a decent amiga database, then it makes sense to do it this way. I'm not sure of the way's we can help each other at the moment, but tell me about the progress of yours.

How far through your project are you. What needs doing? What is the scope of the database? How long is the whole thing going to take?
Here is mangar's reply:-

By all means we can share information. Is your database currently online?

As for CAFE, Hitoro is working on the actual launcher. I don't know the current state of it since its been a while since I have heard from him. I do know it is user-configurable to hold any type of file or information for each title whether its screenshots, play mods, documentation, cheats, cover scans, reviews, etc.. Its really up to the end user as to how much in-depth they want their database to be. Screenshots of CAFE can be seen on the website.

Our database is being built by me. I'm currently awaiting a copy of cafe so I can at least start constructing the physical database. Currently, I have finished collecting as much software as I can and I am in the process of verifying each and every title. Weeding out duplicates and fakes while identifying non-working or semi-working titles and trying to fix them. I'm also in talks with an oldskool cracker to try and get him onboard to crack some of the non-cracked games floating around.

When will CAFE be finished? The sooner I get a beta version the quicker it will get done.. I hope to get a beta version next time I hear from Hitoro which, hopfully, will be soon..

I know I can help you verify the info in your database as I go through mine and vice versa. If you or I am missing any of the titles we can give each other copies. If there is a way we can help each other that I'm forgetting please let me know.


I have given him details of how to get to this discussion board.

[Fred the Fop]

Screenshots...NEED SCREENSHOTS:hooooo :D

[RCK]

There will be full of screenshots, don't worry.
(Cody's powered ;))

[Paul]

:confused I am not sure what to suggest to improve you database, so here goes.

Maybe a category for emulators.

E.g.
Dose the software work with emulators?
Which emulator runs the listed software best?

[CodyJarrett]

I think that I'd prefer the database to be just game information at this stage, as the emulators aren't exactly in a stable state. Whether games work or not and how well they work seems to changes from version to version sometimes, so it would be a tedious job to check every game with each new version of an emulator.

If the basic game info is together, then everything will follow after that.

[Paul]

CodyJarrett, you’re right, the database should only just have game information at the moment, but this was only a suggestion.

Anyway good luck to everyone on this massive project. :cool

[|cy[ool]

Anyone seen this site before?

Spotted it last night and was very impressed :)

http://www.amigagames.com/gage/

[RCK]

not bad, but we will do better :cool
(at least for the interface, search fonctions, quality of screenshots, etc ...)

[Warlock99]

Haven't had time to work on the list in a while, but I've just removed duplicates from the list.

I've also removed assassins disks but haven't replaced them with the games on each disk.

Does anybody have an index of the assassin collection, saying what games are on each disk, that I could merge into our list? Or just a list of all the games on them. The one at ALE is too difficult to sort out.

Here's the slightly shrunk list - 5382 games.

[|cy[ool]

warlock, talk to ido, he is handling tosecs compilation disks which also has assasins comps in it. He has an offline eXtended list, I believe :)

[Twistin'Ghost]

But isn't this database for commercial games? The Assassins disks are all PD/shareware games.

[Fred the Fop]

And where do we draw the line if shareware games are included? Pd games?
Maybe there should be twin developments....Commercial and PD\Shareware...

[RCK]

The first version will only target the commercial games,
then we will see for the others.

[Warlock99]

But, the list already contains a few pd games as CodeJarrett rightly points out.

If it's going to be split then I think it's need to be done when the database is up and running. The problem with doing this is that I think it would take a while to sort which game is commerical etc. This defeats the idea of the database, we'd be held up by trying to split up the list. I don't think I could manage to do this myself. Unless anybody else wants to try?

But, I think the list can be split naturally when people submit information, the commercial/PD category we talked about will do this.

Remember there are no commercial versions of games like doom or heretic on the amiga (as far as I know).

I think an acceptable boundary could be if only significant pd games are included. This is obviously subjective, but it's better than not including any at all.

[Warlock99]

BTW - We seem to be going around in circles here. PD/Commercial was discussed earlier in the thread.

[morph72]

LOL - I've been following this board for quite a while now, but I only stumbled over this particular thread today. After a LOT of reading, I must say it is a great idea to build an Amiga Game Database in a community effort. From what I see, a couple of real experts in this field are already involved, and I hope this web-based database will also profit the development of CAFE (http://www.hitoro.com), the Amiga-Frontend Mangar is working on.

Now a (late) comment concerning the screenshots:

I completely agree with Akira, 320x240 seems like a strange choice. Most games use resolutions of 320x200 or 320x256, only occasionally you'll get weird overscan resolutions like 352x288, or hi-res ones. And 16 Million colors? No wonder your screenshots are 50 kb in size, RCK ;). Since most games don't use more than 32 or 64 colors, I'd recommend using a color depth of 256 or in some cases even 16. It drastically reduces the size of the shots (which will be much appreciated by people with slow modems)! I've done a few shots lately for Opi's Screenmania (http://screenmania.retrogames.com), using the .png format and a color depth of 8 bit, and the size of the images rarely reached 20 kb, actually it was often under 10 kb.

I'm an advocate of screenshots that EXACTLY reproduce the original - same size, same colors, no pixels lost. Only problem is, like someone already mentioned, Amiga Emulators suck when it comes to taking 1:1 screenshots. I hope WinUAE or WinFellow will include a decent 'Screenshot' option someday so we don't have to fool around with Emulator window sizes and Paint Shop Pro anymore.

[Warlock99]

With a bit of crafty text editing I've managed to make a partial list of assassin disks and the games on them from another list I found. It might be handy for anyone wanting to find a game amongst them.

The list only contains disks 1-202 at the moment. I've made two lists, one sorted by game and the other sorted by the disk no.

Whether these games go in the database or not I'm sure they'll come in handy.

[Warlock99]

Did the final few assassin disk here's the final assassin lists 1-250. Two lists as before.

[RCK]

Thanks for your comments morph72,

we have worked on the screenshot "problems" since this thread has started, no more problem about the resolution, and of course : 16M color was too much ;)

[§ane]

set your windows desktop resolution to 32bit color.. no we're not going to take 32bit color images.. but WinUAE doesn't display all the amiga's available color shades in other modes..

Amiga screen resolution: 640x512 windowed

Line mode: Doubled

Centering: Horizontal & Vertical enabled

ensure that Lo-Res is unticked!

when it comes time to take a screenshot hold down ALT while pressing the print screen key, this captures the current window and it's border into the clipboard.. now paste it into your favourite paint application, Photoshop! ;)

you will want to cut the window border off before you resize the image.. cut it down to 640x512 pixels starting at the top left border.. you should make a script or 'action' for doing this..

when resizing always use Nearest Neighbor resize and never Bilinear or Bicubic!, ensure that the current size is 640x512 and halve it to 320x256.. why not just set the amiga's screen resolution to 320x256 in the first place, you say? well WinUAE still fails to properly display all gfx sprites at this resolution!

after resizing, convert the image to Indexed Color, photoshop will have counted the number of individual colors and hopefully come up with an exact color palette being less than 256 colors..

do not save as PNG, it is only supported by a few browsers and even IE5.5 doesn't display the format correctly! the colors are always too dark or ****ed up!

GIF is supported by ALL browsers and has no lossy compression what so ever.. it is a format optimized for 256colors or less..


I can make a quick hack at the WinUAE source and add support for taking screenshots.. if anyone is interested?

[morph72]

Thanks for that info §ane... I for one didn't know you had to run a 32bit desktop so that WinUAE displays the correct Amiga colours... I mean, jesus, how are we supposed to know that kind of stuff? ;)

WinUAE with a screenshot option? Go for it §ane! GIMME :p

By the way, I'm having problems correctly centering the image when using newer WinUAE versions - the Horizontal & Vertical centering options don't seem to work very well. Works fine in WinUAE 0.8.8 though.

[RCK]

@§ane:
your info will be usefull for take perfect screenshot now, thanks.
And of course, a little hack will be appreciated :cool

[§ane]

yes, i too have noticed many off centered screens with the latest release of WinUAE.. the workbench screen being one of them!

so you'd best stick with 8.8 or 8.14 for taking screenshots

i'll start on the hack tommorow, will see if i can find the source for 8.8 and work on that..

but now.. time for sleep.. :sleep

[Fred the Fop]

Like I said in a post before..Sane is a helpful sort:cool

[|cy[ool]

Welcome Sane :), didn't know u were a Dr Who fan :)

[§ane]

yup, i'ma big fan of Dr Who! :agree

a small update on screenshots WinUAE
after some time searching i found the source project for WinUAE 8.8 r8 [ http://www.codepoet.com/UAE/winuae088src.zip ] suprisingly the link is still valid..

and i've just started on the image saving code.. might have something basic working tommorow.. *maybe*


"Would you like a Jelly Baby?"

[|cy[ool]

Hehe!!!
Tom Baker R0X!
;-))

[Mangar]

Well Its nearly 5am and I just stumbled along this thread. Forgive me for not reading all the messages. I'm damn tired.. lol

I'd just like to say I've already agreed to help in any way I can.

A few things on my tired mind at the moment. What classifies a game as being commercial? Sold in stores? And why not include some PD titles? Some of the classics for amigas are not commercial. If a game is the absolute FULL version it should be included.

As for allowing the general public to add to this database. Maybe you should think about the Amount of work it would be to verify each and every piece of software that is added. If you're already going through the trouble of verifying the information just do it yourself from the beginning. Allow the general public to put forward a game TITLE and thats it. Would save them and us some time in my opinion.

We should start small and add more to it as time goes on. Use Warlock's list of games.. get them in the database.. then add to it.. Putting restrictions on the games based on how they were marketed would just complicate matters.. We dont need to start off with EVERY known title.. but I'd rather have to skip the step of deciding if a game should be included or not.. All games should get in there eventually.. Just start with what we have from the list..

I know I havent been around much lately.. Summer is a busy time.. hehe.. still plugging away with cafe..

last note.. Cafe and this database can co-exist.. Cafe is a launcher.. this is a database.. what I'm working on is just the database.. so as long as a database is created it still helps out Cafe or any other project that would extract its info from a database.. So, I'll be throwing my efforts fully into RCK's project.. It all achieves the same result..

[CodyJarrett]

The database has evolved. See the following thread:

http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?threadid=820

Also, the problem with using Warlock's list is that it is a listing of ADFs, so if that was the basis for a database, we wouldn't have to add to it, we would have to change and remove more!

Yes, folks, getting information from the filenames of ADFs is the most unreliable method in the world, ever. Better to start from scratch and work upwards.

[Mangar]

Oh.. didnt know you had a list.. doesnt really matter which list is used.. just start with a list and build once those are done.. the changes look good..

[bippym]

Is this still going ahead?

The last post was a few months ago?

[RCK]

We are in the last phase of the dev !

The AGD (Amiga Games Database) is now much much bigger and complete than the first objective of this thread.

The beta-test is going well, and the public release will be "when it's done" :cool

[bippym]

Oh! Thats excellent, roughly how big is it at the moment?
and how long to public release?

Cheers

[|cy[ool]

no clue, it sure is taking awhile... ?

[RCK]

- The struture of the base is finished.
- The admin interface is done at 90%.
- The public interface is done at 50%.

I'm currently working days & night on this :D

Expect one public release at the end of this year ?
(if we have enough data in it :cool)

[RCK]

Okay dudes, here are some screenshots of the admin interface.
(the place where moderators will enter all the Database informations).

We are working, but the project is big and we need time.
What you would like to see is the ultimate Amiga Game Database no ?

"when it's done" ;)

[Codetapper]

Firstly I apologise for not having time to read this entire thread so if this is a stupid question, sorry!

Rather than just a HD flag, I would like to know what kind of HD installer it is:

1. WHDLoad (the best type!)
2. JST
3. Games own HD installer (and often can't quit back to WB)
4. Other

The Other category relates to some games which have been spread where somebody simply dos copies the files and calls the game HD installed. The lamer BodyCount did a lot of these HD versions which don't actually work. His funniest was Barbarian/Palace in which the game loads "mathtrans.library" and decrypts it as the main game. BodyCount thought it's just a library so deleted it and spread the game. So it never did or will run. Quite a lot of other groups have done HD fixes for certain versions of games with variable reliability aswell (eg. Fix Ltd)

Some games like Zool 2 AGA come with a HD installer on disk 2 and also a WHDLoad/JST installer so tick boxes would be useful in these cases. I always trust a WHDLoad install over the games own one in these cases.

Any comments?

[Twistin'Ghost]

The admin interface actually has fields for WHD, JST and HD (other) and even fields for notes on these install methods. In the notes, for example, we could mention if an original is required, registered WHD required, latest version number of patch, author of patch, etc.

[CodyJarrett]

I've added all the WHDLoad information to my part of the database, for example:

WHD-Codetapper-v1.1

Information like this is best as a text field.