WHDload without workbench?

[wretched]

Hi I have been running adf's on winUAE for some time but I dont have workbench. I have a kickstart (obviously)

Question: Can WHDload be installed/used without workbench?

All the documentation and faqs for installing seems to need it but you legends out there must know whether that is true or not and how to get it done.

[killergorilla]

Well no you don't need workbench as such...

But you do need someoway of running whdload.

A startup sequence such as would work...

setpatch quiet
assign ENV: RAM:
assign T: RAM:
whdload gamedir/gamename.slave preload

It would however load only one game from boot. You could boot to a cli and then load games via the commandline but it's probably just easier to setup a simple workbench instead :)

[wretched]

sounds ok except:
1st: those commaands come up as "unknown command setpatch" in cli
2nd: how do i install whdload without workbench? I could get the files into a directory and then onto an .adf then trried to boot with that .adf which didnt work. Obvious to you perhaps but now im out of ideas.

Oh btw Im using a basic wb13boot.adf to do the stuff I am doing it has some functionality but not a whole lot

oopss it seems that wb13boot actually has a workbench in it ha ha. So I gues I'm asking how to set that up. If I find out on myy own I'll post here for others aat least.

Ok made it further by doing the following
1) in UAE loaded wb13boot.adf into df0 (i guess that stands for (d)isk (f)loppy zero

2) loaded my folder containing the extracted WHDload as a directory into dh0 gave it the volume name w

3) loaded folder containing game into dh1 gave it volume name g

4) started UAE

5)got out into cli> (guessing thats the equivilent to the dos prompt for us microsoft zombies)

(have to say amiga dos commands are not the easiest things to figure out without any documentation - a link would help here - we all know the things we want to do <load and run games> just not the commands to do them)

6) for me the exact command was:
w:/c/whdload g:/californiagames2.slave preload

Hooray almost there? ..,. No
error
on reading "devs:kickstarts/kick34005.a500"
ok i thought i had a kickstart? so what now?
please tell me I'm nearly there. 3 days of head + brickwall = not good

still working on it

I see I just need to get my kick file into the right spot. As soon as I figure out EXACTLY how to do that Ill post it here

7) download skick345.lha easy to find on google

cant copy the files to devs as they seem to exxist on the floppy pobaably coz i ran my wb13boot from the floppy. I guess I need to run it from the hard disk instead... will get this to work or die trying. Will also post as I go coz I know people out there are as new to this as me.

[Anubis]

I don't think that you can install it without workbench. Also some WB files (as you just saw it) are required to start the game.

Is it hard to get workbench and / or ClassicWB to work? :shocked

[killergorilla]

As I said, yes it is possible to use whdload without workbench. That startup sequence works perfectly when loading a game.

You obviously need setpatch in c: otherwise you'll get the error as shown.

WHDLoad doesn't need "installing" as such, you simply need the WHDLoad file in c:

Before trying to get whdload running without workbench, I'd suggest you learn a little bit about how the amiga OS runs and how to setup a HDD/hdf.

[Anubis]

I really like to hear on how to setup HDD without workbench. :D

[killergorilla]

Well once you've got a HDD, all you need to do is format it.

Then you can put whatever files on it you like. You don't need Workbench installed.

My Amiga doesn't boot into Workbench at all.

[Anubis]

What you trying to say is that you can install and operate from Amiga DOS, which is again part of Amiga WB. :)

I agree that you don't have to have WB loaded, but you need a lot of stuff from WB directory to be able to work with HDD.

[killergorilla]

Well no you don't, not to do what the title of this thread says, which is "WHDLoad without workbench".

You need setpatch and whdload in c: and a startup-sequence in s:

For some installs you'll also need the kickstarts in devs/kickstarts

[Anubis]

Now that Toni said that in the future we might have adf/hdf option to run the games, does that means that each hdf install that we will run trough ADF selector (topic about save states for HDFs) we will have to have kickstart file if needed and those other files ready?

[killergorilla]

The whole hdf in adf idea seems a bit silly to me (for whdload at least), you'd need all of the whdload/kickstart files within the hdf, which would mean anytime whdload is updated you'd need to go through all of your games and replace the whdload file.

This would make any save state used from the old whdload redundant too if I'm not mistaken.

[Npl]

As I said, yes it is possible to use whdload without workbench. That startup sequence works perfectly when loading a game.

You obviously need setpatch in c: otherwise you'll get the error as shown.

WHDLoad doesn't need "installing" as such, you simply need the WHDLoad file in c:

Before trying to get whdload running without workbench, I'd suggest you learn a little bit about how the amiga OS runs and how to setup a HDD/hdf.Why do you need setpatch at all? Works fine without. This startup-sequence should be enough, while only needing C:Assign, C:WhdLoad and eventuall Kickstarts in DEVS:C:Assign >NIL: ENV: RAM:
C:Assign >NIL: T: RAM:

cd <gamedir>
C:WhdLoad <gameslave> PRELOAD
Personally I did a few Whdload-adfs for games which fit on 1 floppy (compressed diskfiles help here, so I also have xpk sitting on disk)

S
--WHDLoad.prefs
--Startup-sequence
DEVS
C
--List
--WHDLoad
--MakeDir
--Assign
BubbleBobble
--BubbleBobble.Slave
--etc...
L
--WHDLoad.key
LIBS
--xpkmaster.library
--compressors
--|--xpkMASH.library
--|--xpkSQSH.library

Startup-sequence looks like this: (note that it automatically will find the .slave File in the subdirs )
C:MakeDir RAM:T RAM:ENV

Resident >NIL: C:Assign

Assign >NIL: ENV: RAM:ENV
Assign >NIL: T: RAM:T

Assign >NIL: REXX: S DEFER
Assign >NIL: KEYMAPS: DEVS:Keymaps DEFER

IF NOT EXISTS SYS:Fonts
Assign FONTS:
EndIF

Resident Assign REMOVE

cd `C:List SYS:#?/#?.slave LFORMAT="*"%p*"" FILES`
C:WhdLoad `C:List SYS:#?/#?.slave LFORMAT="*"%n*"" FILES` PRELOAD

[killergorilla]

Why do you need setpatch at all?

Try running an AGA game.

[Npl]

Try running an AGA game.Ah, dint thought of that.

[killergorilla]

Hehe,

neither did I at first :)

[bippym]

The whole hdf in adf idea seems a bit silly to me (for whdload at least), you'd need all of the whdload/kickstart files within the hdf, which would mean anytime whdload is updated you'd need to go through all of your games and replace the whdload file.


not true!

[killergorilla]

Surely it is true if you only have one hdf?

Sure you could have the important files in another hdf, but again you might as well have a harddrive because the second it changes you'd make all your save states redundant...

I might well be overlooking something here so feel free to correct me!

[bippym]

savestates and hds don't work anyway..... do they?

[killergorilla]

Well they do yeah but it's not adviseable as anytime anything on the hdd changes, the savestate really shouldn't be used anymore. It'd mean that the current loaded "state" of the machine differs to the actual state of what's on the system.

i.e. the Amiga thinks the hdd contains data which may well have been altered/removed/deleted since the last time you used the savestate. This could result in data loss.

This problem is gonna occur with hdf's in the adf slot too.

[bippym]

I was referring to general HDFs used as whdload.

My system works and has been tested with both lemonade and Gamebase and should work with Mage too!

Selectable autoboot HDFs are better in some circumstances than having them all on one HDF and using a mouse etc!

[killergorilla]

So with your system I presume you have whdload on a seperate hdf?

[bippym]

Yes WHDLoad is on a boot HDF and it will work with any game HDF I setup

I stopped working on it as I need to rewrite the launcher. I will restart development once I get some time, I have been thinking about it and I have come up with a way to save each game prefs and then the user no longer needs the gui once it has been configured!

So WHDload without WB :D

[killergorilla]

My point was that to ensure data integrity you'd still need to delete all your savestates every time a new whdload is released.

Say you play the game Superfrog. With the old savestate (from whdload v15.1 say), the contents of the Amiga's memory may well be different than if you played Superfrog with the new and updated whdload v16.6 (even if you saved the game at exactly the same point). So therefore you can't guarantee that using savestates with a different version of whdload is safe.

So in theory, you can't really use savestates when using whdload without risk of data loss. (unless the hdf/hdd is read only - in which case you still may get errors during the game)

[bippym]

I agree savestates are not recommended for use with whdload in any incarnation!

But wretched wants whdload without WB and someday I'll be able to supply that ;)

[killergorilla]

I already do that :)

I use that lovely AGS (arcade game selector) which loads on boot of my Amiga, meaning I can load any miggy game I like with a joystick and some sexy screenshots (all without workbench getting involved)

I plan on editing the source to AGS, as currently it leaves room for quite a bit of improvement. I've looked over it and I think it's well within my capabilities. It's too rigid and easily customiseable at the moment. (drifting ever so slightly OT really..)

Glad we got that sorted anyway.

Summary of todays meeting: Don't use savestates with whdload. It's not recommended.

[Toni Wilen]

So in theory, you can't really use savestates when using whdload without risk of data loss. (unless the hdf/hdd is read only - in which case you still may get errors during the game)

I agree 100%, only safe and compatible way is to handle state save/restore in WHDLoad (yes, I know it won't be trivial to implement) with possible help routines from emulation-side.

[Anubis]

So we won't update WHDLoad, which is fine by me. :)

I like BippyM's idea of no-gui startup.

If save state support WHDLoad games, then I got idea to create simple directory amiga HD with C (whdload and other needed files), devs (kickstart) and S (WHDLOad prefs and startup-sequence). I like to create front end that will manipulate files in S as needed to start the game without loading WB. (Something simillar to lemonade, but only for HDF games)
Toni, is it possible to have HDF zipped? (only for one-game HDFs)

[killergorilla]

No-gui?

Bip's did have a GUI, albeit a functional one instead of a screenshot based one.

[Anubis]

BippyM has a dream, erm, I mean idea... :)

I stopped working on it as I need to rewrite the launcher. I will restart development once I get some time, I have been thinking about it and I have come up with a way to save each game prefs and then the user no longer needs the gui once it has been configured!

[killergorilla]

Hmmm...

I could have sworn Bip's project was meant to run on real Amiga's as well.. I must be going mad. :nuts

[Anubis]

Time change, people change, project change...

Wouldn't be nice to be able to run those games with some nice front end too? (perhaps AGS as you mentioned already) :cheese

[killergorilla]

Yeah AGS is nice, but it's a bitch to setup and maintain. It's also lacking some features which I don't think should be too hard to add.

[bippym]

Okay here is my new idea at a glance ;)

It's going to keep the basic premise as it is now, a gui to configure prefs etc. But once configured the prefs are saved and the gui won't pop up in future bootings of the game.

I think to reenable the gui one must boot with the left mouse button pressed or similar.

I'm open to ideas atm

[killergorilla]

So it won't be able to be run from a real miggy?

[bippym]

Not really.

It could I suppose write a gui launcher for >1 game and allow it to be configured properly.

If you wanna get chatting about such a project gimme a holler and i'll come on irc when I get a min!

[killergorilla]

Well I was just asking really, I seem to remember originally yours could, but it doesn't matter if it doesn't, I was just enquiring really :)

[wretched]

I think Bippy is on to something here. For those of us that have the kickstart for our WHDload files but dont see the need to install wb (or worse yet pay for it when the program isnt even required with WHDload) would really appreciate a HDD bootable gui which would then run our fav WHDload games. Bippy I salute you in your effort.
Please keep us informed on your progress.
Who out there is closest to this achievement and what programs do you use to do it?
Details baby I need details!

[wretched]

Yes WHDLoad is on a boot HDF and it will work with any game HDF I setup

So WHDload without WB :D

So to clarify:

You had a HDD containing a boot sequence, a launcher, and WHDload which loaded the launcher which ran WHDload incorporating your game which was on a seperate hdf with all its WHDload slave stuff?

is that right?
sounds good!

The launcher would have just been a bit of code to send command line stuff to WHD yeh including a user enterable part for the game name?

[bippym]

Okay there are 2 projects I am working on. 1 For single HDF's there is a specific link to that with more information : http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=20125

This project is a co-op with me and the gorilla, and the idea is to replace the AGS with a much more suitable frontend.

It'll be loaded on a real amiga and will allow the user to quickly select a game they have already setup :D

Basically boot amiga --> Frontend --> Boot game

No windows, icons, searching etc :D

[Anubis]

bipp,

how will you mount hdf files on real amiga??

[killergorilla]

he won't

[bippym]

err.. you don't!

The new project doesn't use HDFs

[Npl]

Hehe,

neither did I at first :)

Heh, 16.7 apparently will make running Setpatch obsolete :D