Using PC as the diskdrive.

[Haakon]

Guess this would be the right place to ask this theoretical question:

I am having an A500. Is it (theoretical) possible to make a program for the A500 which uses a PC as its diskdrive? I have read some of the faq's about transferring ADF's from the PC to the Amiga, but it seems that you must write them to disks before using them on the Amiga.

At first i thought it would be impossible because of the transfer-rate between Amiga/PC (serial-cable), but then i read this about amigaexplorer:

f you would like to use Amiga Explorer over a serial connection, the following articles include schematics to assemble the null-modem cable yourself, as well as part numbers and pricing information for standard cables, and for Bluetooth serial adapters:
3-105 - Null-Modem Serial Cables
3-193 - Bluetooth Serial Adapters

If you prefer to use Amiga Explorer over TCP/IP, which allows for very fast connections over Ethernet, the Amiga Explorer documentation includes a complete tutorial on the installation of Ethernet and TCP/IP in mixed Amiga/PC environments. If you already have a network you only need to enter the Amiga's host name or IP address in the Amiga Explorer settings on Windows. If there is a firewall or router anywhere between the two, make sure that port 356 is not blocked. Change the default connection password on both the Amiga and the Windows side as an additional safety precaution.


Does that mean that you can get faster transfer rates between my old A500 and my PC than a serial cable, or is it just newer Amiga's that it is possible?
And can that faster transfer rate compare to the speed the Amiga 500 uses to read it's disks? And if so, is it then (again theoretical) possible to use my PC as a storage for all my ADF's, and when using my Amiga, i could access the ADF's as i would like through the connection...?

Making any sense here? Totally unrealistic?
:confused

[keropi]

serial connection on a 68000 cpu would be too slow for what you want...
you could get at BEST 4-5 kb/sec , way slower than a floppy disk...
There is no way that I know of to make your PC a virtual-floppy

[TikTok]

It would be much easier to hack a spare PC drive to work on the Amiga. There are many documents detailing how to do this:

http://ftp.uni-paderborn.de/aminetbin/find?pc+drive

[Haakon]

And serial connection is the ONLY connectin possible between Amiga 500 and a PC ?

(thanks for fast answers by the way)

[keropi]

yep....

[Haakon]

...but possible with newer Amiga's? :)

[keropi]

nope

[Haakon]

That i don't understand.

You guys around here are still using Amiga's arent you? Also for browsing on the internet? The internet-connection must be more than 4-5kb?

[keropi]

If you have a big-box amiga then you can have a zorro/pci network card.
If you have an expanded 1200/600 then you can have a pcmcia network card, or serial port at 115200 bps or a serial interfase providing faster speeds.
BUT there is no way to connect an amiga to a pc and make the pc act as an ADF server or a virtual floppy.
An unexpanded a500 can only achieve 4-5kb/sec with screen limitations and such...

[Haakon]

Ok, so it is theoretical impossible. Just out of curiosity, how fast does the Amiga "read" the disk's (in kb/sec).

Thanks for the link TikTok, lots of new information there...

[RetroMan]

I don´t really understand the postings above .... serial connection is faster than any floppy transfer rate !!!

On an unexpanded Amiga you got a maximum transfer rate of 250 kilobits per second for the floppy ...

[keropi]

I don´t really understand the postings above .... serial connection is faster than any floppy transfer rate !!!

On an unexpanded Amiga you got a maximum transfer rate of 250 kilobits per second for the floppy ...

Completely wrong.... the floppy can do ~40+ kilobytes/sec , serial ports of 460000bps only could achieve a similar rate....

[Haakon]

Found this myself at Wikipeda:

"3½-inch HD floppy drives typically have a transfer rate of 500 kilobaud"

And how many baud is bytes?. Wikipeda:

"The term baud is sometimes misused to refer to "bits per second" which is the "data rate". In some systems the signaling rate and the data rate are the same since it is possible for one signalling event to carry one bit, but in general it is more common to make more efficient use of bandwidth by encoding multiple bits—as many as sixteen—in one event. Thus, a 2400-bit/s modem actually transmits at 600 baud"


And that didn't make me any smarter. But if it is only 40 Kb/s....then it should theoretically be possible at big-box amigas....?

[keropi]

really people, if it was possible to make a pc act like a virtual drive we would all know by now...
:crazy :crazy :crazy

[Haakon]

:agree I know...just curious of what the main problem with this is...because some of you make programs that look like they are beyond this world, and this seems for me kind of...well..possible....

[MelOtt]

Hmmm ... I'm not so sure all this is correct..........
Years ago I used a Null Modem cable to transfer files from my PC (XT) to my
Amiga 500 using terminal software on both to do the transfering.
It ran at a prety good clip, the Amiga having the slower serial port. It still ran
as fast as the Amiga port could take it. The harddrives in the two machines were
the slow points. This was back in the late 80's. I don't know for sure but I would
guess there is software (on Aminet probably) to do just what you want using a
Null Modem.

[lloyd]

Have I missed something here? Who said that serial transfer was the only way? Try PARNET - it's MUCH faster! I admit I've never used it on my Amigas but I have used a similer thing on my laptop to dest top PC. Running Laplink, I used to get way in excess of 20Kb per second.

[lloyd]

@ Keropi

No, serial isn't the onlt way dude

[Haakon]

...but still, 20 kb/s is not enough...

Melott: ok, shall make a search...

[Sune Salminen]

For disk-based games to work, you would need to plug your PC into the external floppy port or maybe the expansion port on the Amiga 500.

How else would the games know to load the data from the serial or the parallel port instead of the floppy drive, while they were running?

The PC would then have to run a disk drive emulator, maybe connected to external hardware via USB, which was then connected to the Amiga External Disk Drive port. Lots of external hardware would be needed to pull this off.

You would also have to tell the Amiga somehow that the external device was DF0:.

[Haakon]

So if it WAS possible for transfer-speed up to 40 kb, it still would be impossible?

Isn't the ADF's "perfect" copies of a disk? I thought this (again theoretical) could be done by running an "emulator" on the Amiga which said "from now on, dont use DF0: but use all the signals from the serial/parallel-port and treat it like it was from the DF0:". This way, the DF0: was never in use and if a game asked for data (load), the "emulator" (which had to be resistent in memory) made sure the disc-traffic went through the cable, and not the DF0:...

[Firthy2002]

It wouldn't be impossible, redirecting DF0: can be done, but you'd need a very good understanding of how trackdisk and kickstart handle drive assignments.

[Sune Salminen]

(...) This way, the DF0: was never in use and if a game asked for data (load), the "emulator" (which had to be resistent in memory) made sure the disc-traffic went through the cable, and not the DF0:...

That's another problem. Where in memory would you store that program? You would need to know which memory locations would be "safe" from the game you were running.

The only way would be to use external hardware that hardcoded whatever external device you would hook up to the floppy, parallel, serial or expansion port as DF0: and disabled the Amigas internal drive.

If you could get this to work, you could probably reach ridiculously high transfer speeds. But it would take Rob Northern, Randy Linden, the whole CAPS team and Jay Miners ghost (rest his soul) to make it work!

[MelOtt]

I guess I kinda mis-understood what you wanted to do..
But it still isn't that hard to do. If you have an expansion card slot oh the A500
you would use an XSerf lan card and a lan card in the PC. Set up your own local
network between the Amiga and the PC. Then you can use the PC as just a file
server to the Amiga. I bought the nessary cards,Hub and cables to hookup my
2 Amigas and 2 PC's for a local net, I just haven't gotten around to doing it yet.
The only problem I see here is finding a Zorro 2 slot expansion for the A500.
The rest is easy.

[Sune Salminen]

That wouldn't work for .adf images though.

[Haakon]

If you could get this to work, you could probably reach ridiculously high transfer speeds. But it would take Rob Northern, Randy Linden, the whole CAPS team and Jay Miners ghost (rest his soul) to make it work!

:D
hehehe, i get the point. Impossible...

[Haakon]

. Then you can use the PC as just a file
server to the Amiga. .

yes, but like Sune Salminen said, that won't work with ADF's...

[manicx]

@ Keropi

No, serial isn't the onlt way dude

I use to connect my PC and Amigas through the parallel port and share the PC drives on the Amiga side. I usually use this method to pass files to the Amiga side. Never failed me for 7 years now... Dead easy too.

[TheAmigaMan]

Guess this would be the right place to ask this theoretical question:

I am having an A500. Is it (theoretical) possible to make a program for the A500 which uses a PC as its diskdrive? I have read some of the faq's about transferring ADF's from the PC to the Amiga, but it seems that you must write them to disks before using them on the Amiga.

At first i thought it would be impossible because of the transfer-rate between Amiga/PC (serial-cable), but then i read this about amigaexplorer:

f you would like to use Amiga Explorer over a serial connection, the following articles include schematics to assemble the null-modem cable yourself, as well as part numbers and pricing information for standard cables, and for Bluetooth serial adapters:
3-105 - Null-Modem Serial Cables
3-193 - Bluetooth Serial Adapters

If you prefer to use Amiga Explorer over TCP/IP, which allows for very fast connections over Ethernet, the Amiga Explorer documentation includes a complete tutorial on the installation of Ethernet and TCP/IP in mixed Amiga/PC environments. If you already have a network you only need to enter the Amiga's host name or IP address in the Amiga Explorer settings on Windows. If there is a firewall or router anywhere between the two, make sure that port 356 is not blocked. Change the default connection password on both the Amiga and the Windows side as an additional safety precaution.


Does that mean that you can get faster transfer rates between my old A500 and my PC than a serial cable, or is it just newer Amiga's that it is possible?
And can that faster transfer rate compare to the speed the Amiga 500 uses to read it's disks? And if so, is it then (again theoretical) possible to use my PC as a storage for all my ADF's, and when using my Amiga, i could access the ADF's as i would like through the connection...?

Making any sense here? Totally unrealistic?
:confused

Does your PC have a CD-RW drive? If so, just burn all of the ADFs to a CD-R and then place this CD into your Amiga's CD Rom drive. Then you will be able to create real Amiga disks from the ADFs that are on the CD-R disc. :)

[Haakon]

I use to connect my PC and Amigas through the parallel port and share the PC drives on the Amiga side. I usually use this method to pass files to the Amiga side. Never failed me for 7 years now... Dead easy too.

But you still have to copy the ADF to a disk before using it?

[Sune Salminen]

Yes!

[Haakon]

I think Sune Salminen and Keropi understands exactly what i am trying to achieve here, and i take their words that it is impossible :D

[TheAmigaMan]

But you still have to copy the ADF to a disk before using it?

That's right. All of my games are on disks or CDs and are ready to be used on a real Amiga.

[Firthy2002]

I think Sune Salminen and Keropi understands exactly what i am trying to achieve here, and i take their words that it is impossible :D

Probably not impossible, just extremely difficult.

[MelOtt]

Ok.. I guess I'm still not clear here on what the problem is.
What I see is .. use Parnet to transfer the files from the PC to the amiga's ram or
HD then use 'ADF2Disk' to write the Amiga format disks. Unless I'm missing the point
you want to read the ADF file in the PC drive.
Why not just write the Amiga disk and eliminate all the hassle ??

[Haakon]

I have just (last couple of months) taken my old A500 down from the attic. A lot (most) of the disks i have has gotten read/write error, probably because of age. Since I can't get totally the Amiga-feeling playing through Winuae, i will try to setup the A500 so I can use that as long as it still lives. I thought i would be very practical to not having the need to write everything to disks before watching (demos) and playing (games). And having a large PC-harddrive connected with all of my game and demos ADF-files would have made the process a lot less time-consuming (time for playing with my a500 is very limited when you have a job, wife and two small kids :D ). And also practical storing my ADF's on a large HD, making sure it also get's backup etc.

By the way, can you use ordinary PC-disks in the Amiga (1.44), or do i have to get hold of old Amiga-disks?

[StarEye]

You should be able to use the 1.44mb disks, as long as their formatted into 880k. But they're not very reliable, so don't overuse them. They weren't meant for this kind of usage. (I read this in another topic on this forum... lots of stuff to learn here :p)

But seriously, why not just get a harddrive for you amiga? With enough memory and maybe an accelerator you can play every game through just a few clicks, if you use WHDload. No need for WinUAE or that emulation-humbug, you'll have the real thing, but faster.

[Haakon]

I tried the search, but did not find the topic you mention.

Yes, hardrive is a solution. I probably will look into that in the future, since there is no hope for "my" solution. What are the largest HD available for Amiga, and should/must i upgrade to a Amiga 1200?

[StarEye]

Well, there's no limit for the size of the harddrive, but unless you change the hd filesystem, you won't be able to use more than 4 giga. The beast option is getting an A1200 with 030 and 16mb fast (or more) and a cd-rom drive. If you have that, you can buy any 3,5" IDE hd, or 2,5" if you prefer. I recommend getting a kickstart 3.1 amiga 1200, as you need that kickstart if you want to use OS3.5/3.9.

[wlcina]

and what about flash drive instead of floppy ? or some kind of floppy:-> usbkey converter ;-) all electronics will be in a fake floppy drive and data will be on usb key ;-) 2 or 4mb usb key will be enough ;-)

[alexh]

The cheapest way to network an A500 to a PC is via a SCSI network. First used with the Siamese software a long time ago....

You can pick up a GVP A500 HD8+ SCSI adapter quite cheap on ebay, PC SCSI cards are very cheap, cables are the expensive part. Plus you can expand the RAM of your Amiga to 10Mbytes (9 on older Amigas) and have somewhere to put those ADF images prior to writing them back to disk on the Amiga disk drive.

The siamese networking software can be found on the internet, I think that Steve Newette(?) and Siamese closed several years ago. Shame as I was looking forward to their 3-pack cases :)

[Haakon]

So much to learn, so little time :)

[Doc Mindie]

Haakon, may I suggest a socalled "laplink-cable"

it uses the parallell-port, and I've achieved rates of about 30kB/s over that, using PC2Amiga (which can be found on Aminet). the archive also includes a textfile describing how to build a fourwire special parallell-cable.

It still won't make the PC a "virtual Floppy" but at least you'll be able to use the PC at was really meant for, a SLAVE for the Amiga :P

[Akira]

hMMMM, Im interested in SCSI networking, how do you do it? I want to hook up my Amiga and my Mac Classic II like this....

[alexh]

There are two examples on the Aminet... however one is in German and the other is an Italian translation of the German.

[Akira]

Will have to do with the italian one :/

[Haakon]

Ouch, german OR Italian...! :shocked

DocLink: think i'm going for alexy's solution. But i think i have to buy a "new" Amiga sooner or later. To bad my work is occupying all my time these days, but i'll keep my eyes open on Ebay (or QXL, a norwegian auction)