Rarity rating

[Duke]

I think it would be nice to have a certain rarity rating assigned to each title, so that collectors can quickly see if a price is ok the want to pay or just to rate your own collection.

Something like the system at AtariAge (http://www.atariage.com/common/rarity_key.html) would be optimal :)

[Akira]

This has been posted recently, but dunno where. Oh well... may have been in some chat pr private HOL discussion.

Anyway, it's in the works :)

[Codetapper]

Personally I think the AtariAge system is far too complex. As I said in another thread, you will end up with people bitching over whether a game should be rating 8 vs rating 9 out of 10. The system I proposed is much more simple - something like this with a comments field:

0 = Default/Unknown (not filled in)
1 = Common as mud
2 = One version is common, at least one other version is rare
3 = Rare
4 = Extremely rare
5 = Game finished and reviewed but not found/released

Some examples for each title:

1 = SDI/Cinemaware
2 = Empire Strikes Back
3 = Brian Lara's Cricket, Mickey Mouse, SDI/Activision
4 = The Champ, Zoom
5 = Putty Squad, Tilt/Codemasters

The comment field would be used like this:

Standalone MFM version of Empire Strikes Back is rare, most versions have a virus on the bootblock of this version and it does not work. The copyable disk version is very common.

This way there are not too many categories to bog everyone down and let's face it - most people just want to know if a game they have is considered rare or not.

[Mr Creosote]

Sorry, but I see many problems with a classification of rarity. Most important: international differences from country to country.

[Antiriad]

Your plan sounds good to me Codetapper! :great

[Duke]

Yep, I would be perfectly happy with that system :)

@Mr Creosote: Major regional differences for countries could be explained in the comments field.

[fiath]

Originally posted by Codetapper
Standalone MFM version of Empire Strikes Back is rare, most versions have a virus on the bootblock of this version and it does not work. The copyable disk version is very common.

Do you mean a disk image, or the actual original disk? If original, are you really sure it had a virus??

[Codetapper]

Originally posted by fiath
Do you mean a disk image, or the actual original disk? If original, are you really sure it had a virus??

You'll have to ask ville9 that - from memory he bought 2 versions of Empire Strikes Back which both had a virus on the bootblock. From memory it was the same one. And I also had another MFMWarp dump from somebody else which also had the virus!

Hard to believe the disks would have the virus on the original but 3 MFM disk versions all with a virus seems more than just a coincidence!

(BTW, the more common standard AmigaDos NDOS format version did not suffer this problem).

[fiath]

Okay, well luckily (!) the virus definitely modified those disks, since we have dumps of them. So we still have not yet found a commerically released game with a virus on. :)

Pretty obviously, these do not have a virus:

http://www.caps-project.org/games.php?search=Empire+Strikes

[robotriot]

I actually would prefer the 0-10 rarity system because it's used by the 'official' videogame collector's guide, DigitalPress. They already have lists for CDTV and CD32, see here (http://www.digitpress.com:8080/DP/cmf/search.cmf). Of course it would be a lot of work to determine all the different grades, but I think it ought to be done someday as a guide for the 'serious' collectors ;)

[RCK]

The codetapper rarity meter have already been implemented in HOL, in will be displayed for public in near futur :)

[pcGTW_Webmaster]

And how do you know if a game is rare or not ? In my opinion a rarity rating is as useless as a good/bad rating...

[robotriot]

WindowsKiller: ebay/flea market/etc observation, or by knowing production runs.

[Codetapper]

Unless I am absolutely sure I leave the rarity field to the experts in the group - Dr Bong and Cody. Unless you have an enormous collection of games or troll E-Bay a lot you don't really qualify to fill in the field imho...

[oldpx]

Good idea but how will you update 5100+ entries once market conditions change? All the games will be unavailable someday and if not updated, hol will be an object of nostalgia itself.

[wakeupbomb]

Well I think a rarity rating would be a damned good idea. I'm half way through storing details on all my games in a weirdo Filemaker Pro database and i've created a field for rarity but am just guessing what to put in it. It certainly is useful for ebaying and whatnot. And especially if like me you want to go "HA! I have a rare game." hmm yes
Either way HOL still rocks my socks.
I'm just thinking of my own selfish gains.

[cebulba]

ok...

WHO is responsible for the RARITY grades of games in HOL?

There are many games I personally wouldn't rate as RARE and on the other hand as being COMMON AS MUD.

This scale is not very meaningful if you want my opinion. I would suggest you either name 10 hardcore collectors who really take care of that rarity scale or delete this "information" from HOL...

[DrBong]

You have to consider that the rarity scale takes into account a worldwide perspective (i.e. not just availability in Europe, UK, USA, Australia/New Zealand etc. per se), as well as other factors like region-specific releases (e.g. U.S. vs UK release of Archipelagos) and availability in original and budget/compilation versions. Want to specify some examples that you're unhappy with? Just posting a rant that you don't agree isn't terribly constructive.

[cebulba]

two examples:
Jet (http://hol.abime.net/788)
Rarity scale: Common as mud

Comment: I came across this game several times (mainly in US) however I wouldn't rate it as "common as mud". Common as Mud would be LEMMINGS or other best-selling games: the usual "10 copies a day on Ebay game".
In a way PRE-1989 games aren't available any more in hundreds of units - so you can say a Pre-1989 cannot get a "common as mud" rating.

Millenium (http://hol.abime.net/5159)
Rarity Scale: EXTREMELY RARE

Comment: Hence Extremely Rare is the toughest value in your rating scale this game should be difficult to come by. Really? Besides the fact that it's a 1991 game you can get either the European release and the US release quite often. More often than other extremely rare games like Giana Sisters (which you could get about 2-3 times a year on Ebay for example - in "good years" *g*)

Overall comment:
You listed Archipelagos. If the rarity scale has been given on a special edition or by region specifics than you need to add this as information/comment to the rarity value, e.g. "while the European release is common, the special french version is extremely rare".

otherwise I see more "totally ultra rare Lemming-likes" Amiga games appearing on Ebay.uk for 100 pounds start price - hence Hol listed them as extremely rare ;)

If you want to include a rarity scale - values should be given on descent research and consideration. I see a problem in handling this with only two or three members.
If you want to give real information on rarity - then it deserves a good beating.
I'm not behind the scenes and this is not meant offensive (!) but @DrBong do you really check the market every day for years - worldwide (and not from Australia) and even on games you already own? I'm not saying you personally aren't able to rate a game (as being one of the top10 collectors here) but I would consider to "build a rating team" of 5-10 decent collectors (or even "Resellers") to give more attention to the rating system - besides for one or two members (as it seems the rating is based on) a "good and true value" is difficult to obtain (and would deserve hours of hunting down games worldwide)...

[DrBong]

two examples:
Jet (http://hol.abime.net/788)
Rarity scale: Common as mud

Comment: I came across this game several times (mainly in US) however I wouldn't rate it as "common as mud". Common as Mud would be LEMMINGS or other best-selling games: the usual "10 copies a day on Ebay game".

Good call! I'm not sure who rated that one, but it deserves a rarity rating of at least 2 stars if not 3. Changed.

In a way PRE-1989 games aren't available any more in hundreds of units - so you can say a Pre-1989 cannot get a "common as mud" rating.

I wouldn't necessarily agree with the last part of that statement. There are a fair few pre-1989 games that are common, whether they be original release or in the form of budget/compilation versions.

Millenium (http://hol.abime.net/5159)
Rarity Scale: EXTREMELY RARE

Comment: Hence Extremely Rare is the toughest value in your rating scale this game should be difficult to come by. Really? Besides the fact that it's a 1991 game you can get either the European release and the US release quite often. More often than other extremely rare games like Giana Sisters (which you could get about 2-3 times a year on Ebay for example - in "good years" *g*)

Again, I'm not sure who rated this one (wasn't me!). This entry, however, specifically refers to the U.S. release (and not the common European release). I can't say that I've ever seen this one (on Ebay or elsewhere), but it probably deserves a 3 star rating by virtue of the fact that it hardly ever appears for sale outside the U.S. I agree, 4 stars is probably overstating its rarity. Changed.

Overall comment:
You listed Archipelagos. If the rarity scale has been given on a special edition or by region specifics than you need to add this as information/comment to the rarity value, e.g. "while the European release is common, the special french version is extremely rare".

In the case of Archipelagos, the rarity rating applied hopefully is self-explanatory:

"One version is common, at least one other version is rare 2 stars"

In any case, comments regarding rarity would probably be low priority for us right now......too much other basic stuff missing from game entries that require our more immediate attention.

otherwise I see more "totally ultra rare Lemming-likes" Amiga games appearing on Ebay.uk for 100 pounds start price - hence Hol listed them as extremely rare ;)

Isn't virtually every Amiga game on Ebay these days classified as "rare" by sellers??!! ;) I doubt HOL's rarity rating would influence much of the lunacy exhibited by Ebay bidders having too much money to spend and lacking impulse control!! :D

If you want to include a rarity scale - values should be given on descent research and consideration. I see a problem in handling this with only two or three members.

If you want to give real information on rarity - then it deserves a good beating.

Putting humour aside, I am inclined to agree with you. I'm a firm believer in doing something well or not at all. Having said that, though, the rarity scale is supposed to serve as a guide and not be taken as holy gospel, as it is inevitable that people (even collectors) will disagree.

I'm not behind the scenes and this is not meant offensive (!) but @DrBong do you really check the market every day for years - worldwide (and not from Australia) and even on games you already own?

No offense taken. To answer your question, I check Ebay, TradeMe, AmiBench and a few other sites most weeks and keep an eye on the game lists of Amiga retailers. Been doing this regularly since 1996/97 and I've been buying Amiga games in quantity since 1994/95.

It's hard not to notice games that I already own. Over the course of time it's also difficult not to accumulate large volumes of doubles just to get hold of the rarer jewels that appear in Amiga game bundles.

I'm not saying you personally aren't able to rate a game (as being one of the top10 collectors here) but I would consider to "build a rating team" of 5-10 decent collectors (or even "Resellers") to give more attention to the rating system - besides for one or two members (as it seems the rating is based on) a "good and true value" is difficult to obtain (and would deserve hours of hunting down games worldwide)...

Good idea in theory, but it may prove difficult in practice trying to recruit a number of committed raters. The dynamic nature of rarity ratings with passing time is also a big problem. Definitely an interesting idea, though, that we'll discuss as a team.

In the meantime, if you find anymore examples of dubious rarity ratings in HOL, then please sing out and tell us why you don't agree :evilgrin Even PM me if you dare! ;)

[amigamemo]

In the meantime, if you find anymore examples of dubious rarity ratings of HOL games, then please sing out and tell us why you you don't agree :evilgrin Even PM me if you dare ;)

Hi Folks,

i disgusted this term with cebulba days ago (btw: among others, i found this JET excample. while putting the game on my museum-site, i was wondering of this 'comen as mud' rating at hol. 'cause as an hardcore-collector i 've never seen this game in years :spin

but getting straight to my point of view: i think this two star rating at hol has an quite confusing term : 'One version is common, at least one other version is rare'
hmmm... i've often think about it, when i have a game at hand that exist in one version only, worldwide. so it is common, or is it rare ? you see ! ;)

[dlfrsilver]

i have to react here. while i like the rating system, the main reverse backside of the medal is that some dishonesty sellers just SELL afterwards the game WAY WAY more
expensive that they are RATED. As a result some rare games which are elected to be
preserved by caps can't be bought to fulfill this, as buyers just can't pay the FEE-PRICE applied. And by experience collectors just buy out games, AND DON'T HELP PRESERVATION.

See the point ? We have in France Biggest collectors of europe. i don't talk about
guys like me who owns 700+ (counting 220 games SEALED) games up to those having 3500+ games, but people which have a lot more, like 7000-7500+ games ! These ones owns many 3/4 stars games rated by HOL which others under just doesn't have.

Unfortunately collecting takes them so much time they just can't preserve ! And they
stop others to preserve as we have the time but not the money LMAO ^^.

Also, there is thing for which collectors are not good to because they have their own
relations and way-to-get-the-games. some people says yes i have won the game X
for 45 euros shipping included. and then i answer ok pal, i got the game SEALED for 5 euros the box, and the seller has the game in 300 units alone.

guess the guy's reaction. he tought having the game for a correct price thinking
it's rare, as it's not really !

what do you think about my statement ?

[NOB]

I like the rating system.:) And for sure there is a differce between
wanted and rare games.
The best way to rate is ideed to watch the market.And count how often they
appear.
It is dubios that Hacker isn´t rated as extremely rare.Same for
Crystal Hammer (even if cebulba has two of it);)

[andreas]

I only rate if I'm sure about their frequency on ebay! HONESTLY.
And no, I would not give "Millen(n)ium" a 4-stars rating either ;)

Also thanks must go to dlfrsilver who has already pointed me to some very rare games, and also requested ratings to be changed. (sometimes from 4 stars back to 3)

"Extremely rare" could, however, very SAFELY be put on almost the whole Spain-only and Italy-only releases! They're "very rare by design", as only sold in SPA/ITA. :)
French games might also have been sold in Canada, where people have French as *first* language very often.

This *must not* be compared to German releases, which were usually also put out in Switzerland and Austria, let alone Luxembourg and Belgium maybe, the latter of which does contain an officially approved German minority (Eupen region). If the region is not TOO rural, German games may have been sold there too.

[dlfrsilver]

and for instance even the spanish developpers exemple dinamic have stated they didn't
have anymore the master disk of their games.

AND more important, spanish games were sold in FEW HUNDRED copies only.

hence why they are very rare !!!

[DrBong]

It is dubios that Hacker isn´t rated as extremely rare. Same for Crystal Hammer (even if cebulba has two of it);)

Hacker is reasonably easy to pick up in the U.S. Given it was an early Amiga release, it may have only been available on import in Europe, which might explain its rarity there. Certainly was available on the shelves here in Australia as I came across a few loose disk copies quite easily before getting a boxed copy. Like the U.S. release of Millenium, I think 3 stars is about right.

The original release of Crystal Hammer is hard to get hold of outside Germany, but the compilation versions aren't.....hence the 3 star rating.

Hope that gives some insight into those ratings! :)

[andreas]

I tend to disagree for Hacker. Reasonably easy? Not anymore - as the game is from 1985! A boxed copy is almost as rare as "One-on-one" retail boxed.

[dlfrsilver]

hacker appears in many compilations.

A game is RARE mainly because it's HARD to get it. Hacker is not !

[DrBong]

I tend to disagree for Hacker. Reasonably easy? Not anymore - as the game is from 1985! A boxed copy is almost as rare as "One-on-one" retail boxed.

I doubt the Amiga version was published in 1985. More like late 1986 or early 1987 (reviewed in Amiga World in July 87). Have to dig my copy out and have a look at date stamps on the disk files and change the HOL entry. The copyright year on the Amiga titlescreen is a legacy of the C64 version.

BTW One on One, like Hacker, isn't all that rare in the U.S. either.....boxed or unboxed. Just have to know where to look or be a bit patient for a copy to pop up on U.S. Ebay that is available to worldwide bidders. You have to consider that Ebay blocks out auctions to overseas bidders if the seller doesn't want to sell to your country. The only way to see these auctions is to search the parent Ebay site of such auctions (e.g. U.S. seller only wants to sell to North America -> auction won't show up on Ebay.fr, Ebay.au, Ebay.de etc., so you will have to go to Ebay.com to see such auctions).

[dlfrsilver]

i will take a look on some games, quite known and say to my point if rare or not.

edit : - example : demons ans drivers is not rare, i have seen it at least 4 times this year on ebay
if not even more.

the french retail version of Prince de Perse is extremmely rare. I only know 2 people who own it on amiga : Me and Thierry Levastre ^^. the compil version is quite easy to find.

Othello Killer on amiga is 4 stars, like his ST counterpart. again a game almost impossible to find.

the Shortgrey too, only seen this game 1 time on ebay in 3-4 years.

Time from empire in french is 4 stars. seen this game 2 times on ebay in 3-4 years too.
Never thought to have it without the help of my collector's friend ^^.

Super C is also 4 stars. never seen this games on ebay since i run on it.

Twinworld is 3 stars at least. only seen it 3 times in 3-4 years on ebay.

[Adderly]

... You have to consider that Ebay blocks out auctions to overseas bidders unless you're searching on the parent site of Ebay sellers. :shocked
Hopefully they are blocking only the auctions from people who are not selling/shipping to foreign countries???

Edit: i tried it with ebay.de and ebay.fr. Ebay.de shows me only auctions from France that have been marked for European/world-wide shipping. The ones that are not listed are auctions of stuff only shipped within France by choice of the auction-holder.

[andreas]

F§&K!
I did not know this! :mad
Thanks DrBong! I didn't think Ebay had any *reason* to block these auctions. The guys would sell original stuff, no ADF "w4r3z" cds, wouldn't they? Nothing politically problematic either (World War II memorabilia etc.), so what the fuss?

@dlfrsilver: thanks! :) Lemme fix some ratings then...

[edit] awww...who put ADVERTS in Super C's boxscans section? :bash ;)

[NOB]

Hope that gives some insight into those ratings! :)

Interesting insights.What is the reason that Do! Run Run
is extremely rare.It was sold 1990 at the "best" Amiga years.
Is there a story behind this rarity? Or was it simply the "wrong"
publisher.I have seen that game only once at ebay. (IIRC):)

[DrBong]

:shocked
Hopefully they are blocking only the auctions from people who are not selling/shipping to foreign countries???

Edit: i tried it with ebay.de and ebay.fr. Ebay.de shows me only auctions from France that have been marked for European/world-wide shipping. The ones that are not listed are auctions of stuff only shipped within France by choice of the auction-holder.

Yes, that's what I meant to say.....will edit my post above to make this clearer.

I didn't think Ebay had any *reason* to block these auctions.

They only block when a seller doesn't want to sell to your country or region of the world. Sorry, I wasn't all that clear in my last post (now edited).

What is the reason that Do! Run Run
is extremely rare. It was sold 1990 at the "best" Amiga years. Is there a story behind this rarity? Or was it simply the "wrong" publisher. I have seen that game only once at ebay. (IIRC)

I've wondered about this myself! :blased :) Could be a few reasons for it. Poor distribution might be the most likely one as Electrocoin published their own conversion and they didn't have the market muscle of Capcom or Konami in the computer software or arcade arenas. Could be Electrocoin only did a small production run first off and further production was dependent on good initial sales (seems silly given it was a 1990 release, but companies did and still do strange things and the few reviews that appeared in the UK rated the game as mediocre). Finally, might be that Electrocoin went bust soon after publishing the game, their computer software division was closed down by the parent arcade company, or they were taken over by another company. Any of these would have impacted on production.

At the end of the day, I can't really tell you for sure as I haven't come across much on Electrocoin in my computer mags and didn't really find out too much doing a Google search. I've just made a few educated guesses based on why other Amiga games never made it on to the shelves in any great quantity.

[NOB]

Interesting aspects!:great I will dig out the review in the german
Amiga Joker mag and see how they rated it. :)

[NOB]

Space Ranger http://hol.abime.net/2035 is easy to pick up
in the UK.(?)
The 3 star rating seems to be overrated.
http://www.ukretro.co.uk/cpstorefront22/CandyPress/scripts/prodList.asp?idCategory=12

[andreas]

agree - changed

[cebulba]

Perhaps you might consider adding such a message in the FAQ to the rarity guide...

Or introduce a "who owns what" like in klov.com

quote:
Rarity is NOT necessarily an indication of value. Some common games show up as very rare here because collectors don't want them (they are common because arcade operatos might be sitting on tons of them in warehouses), while some fairly scarce games are grabbed by collectors every time they show up. Additionally, some games made in the last 5 years are still making money for operators and are thus not yet affordable to the typical collector. For a clue to value, compare how many people have this game vs. how many people want this game and then click on the eBay links to help determine an accurate price range.

[Marcuz]

oh, btw:
http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=8014